denise_xo Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 This whole dutch thing is new to me and a total turn-off. I agree, I guess it's all about different 'dating styles' and what one is compatible with. I would laugh at such a suggestion though. As funny as it may be it is quite sad to me. The thing is, you just have to assess those issues based on where you are. I don't know if I've understood this correctly, but I'm under the impression that the OP is an American in the UK. You can't apply American dating rules directly to the European context. The rules of the game are simply different. Although in the case of the OP's date, he still sounds weird to me.
zengirl Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 The thing is, you just have to assess those issues based on where you are. I don't know if I've understood this correctly, but I'm under the impression that the OP is an American in the UK. You can't apply American dating rules directly to the European context. The rules of the game are simply different. Although in the case of the OP's date, he still sounds weird to me. Agree on doing what the cultural standard is, though I dated several Brits (not in the UK, but abroad, in Asia and Australia) and usually the fellow picked up the check on early dates, as habit, and we never split dutch style (sometimes I picked up, etc). These were well-traveled Brits, so perhaps they were following different rules. Is strict dutch (not "I get one, you get one," but a split on every check) really so common in the UK? I don't need a man to pay for everything, but that would get tedious to me. I'll pick up some checks, but I'm not a fan of dutch. That said, turn it down if it's too expensive and tell the guy! People should be understanding and appreciative of your budget.
denise_xo Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Agree on doing what the cultural standard is, though I dated several Brits (not in the UK, but abroad, in Asia and Australia) and usually the fellow picked up the check on early dates, as habit, and we never split dutch style (sometimes I picked up, etc). These were well-traveled Brits, so perhaps they were following different rules. Is strict dutch (not "I get one, you get one," but a split on every check) really so common in the UK? I don't need a man to pay for everything, but that would get tedious to me. I'll pick up some checks, but I'm not a fan of dutch. That said, turn it down if it's too expensive and tell the guy! People should be understanding and appreciative of your budget. Sorry, yes I didn't really plug in to that distinction - I was talking about sharing expenses relatively evenly rather than splitting every single bill into two. You definitely get men paying for dates in Europe/UK, too. But in my limited experience, the cultural expectation that they should do so seems so much stronger in the US.
bernardverh Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Funny that there's even a discussion about this. I'm Dutch and I'm dating a lot lately. For me it's normal to not even discuss who pays the drinks/food: we both pay half. If a woman would expect me to pay the whole bill, that would be a total turnoff, I would be insulted. It would seem that I'm only good enough for her if I pay for everything. A woman with such a view on reality isn't very mature, in my eyes. Oh and to add, my dates are mostly successful.
denise_xo Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Funny that there's even a discussion about this. I'm Dutch and I'm dating a lot lately. For me it's normal to not even discuss who pays the drinks/food: we both pay half. If a woman would expect me to pay the whole bill, that would be a total turnoff, I would be insulted. It would seem that I'm only good enough for her if I pay for everything. A woman with such a view on reality isn't very mature, in my eyes. Oh and to add, my dates are mostly successful. This is how it works where I live, too. But the majority of the active members on this board are North Americans, so the set up is a bit different. These things don't always directly translate.
SingVoice Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 I've had discussions with men about this issue. I've had SEVERAL men tell me the insist on paying. Some men need to feel like a provider. I've had men be offended if a woman offers to pay. On the flip side though...I think each couple is different. I was with a guy once where his work slowed down and he was no longer financially comfortable. Did I throw a fit? No. I took care of him. However it kind of made him feel emasculated. For myself...I believe the guy should pay for the first few dates. After that...you can switch it up.
waynebrady Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Yet, you have dating troubles and resort to porn! What a laugh:rolleyes: Okay that was mean, but just keeping it real. Sometimes, I gotta go hard, some men cry more than girls. Waaah. Dating troubles? Resort to porn? First of all I don't date(yet), I have never asked a woman out(yet). And secondly all single men more or less resort to porn. You really don't have much of a clue. And The reason some men such as myself come off as bitter is because of princessy women like you. Who thinks the man should do all the work and do all the "giving" without getting anything back, you deny it but it's obvious from you and all other womens posts that it is infact a one way street in your advantage as a woman.
Mme. Chaucer Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 But ... there's another recent thread here where one of our resident "experts" tells us that a woman offering to pay her share is to be considered a "red flag." How is anybody supposed to navigate this sea of confusion? I believe that here in the US, the person who does the inviting is tacitly agreeing to pay. If the guy referenced in the OP invited her first, she accepted, and then he told her it would be "Dutch," I think that is inappropriate. People who are dating get into a rhythm and understanding about how the paying is handled, but at the beginning of dating a new person, it can be difficult to sort through. And guys, why are you criticizing the women on this thread who like to be wined and dined? Our American society has long held this as "normal" dating behavior, and there are men and women both who enjoy things that way. Leave them to it, and stop complaining about "princesses." If you don't want to date that way - just don't.
xpaperxcutx Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 The " bitter" and more sexist men need to get off their princess argument. Women who want men to respect them aren't demanding, but when things come down to who pays the check, I wou think the more reasonable thing is whoever asks, pays. I mean in the OP's case, it's not even about being fair, it's about a guy sticking her with an unreasonable 60 pounds tab.
waynebrady Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 The " bitter" and more sexist men need to get off their princess argument. Women who want men to respect them aren't demanding, but when things come down to who pays the check, I wou think the more reasonable thing is whoever asks, pays. I mean in the OP's case, it's not even about being fair, it's about a guy sticking her with an unreasonable 60 pounds tab. Women expect the man to do everything to please them without getting anything back, Women expect the man to do all the work and put in all the effort, Women expect the man to initiate all contact in order to boost her self-esteem, Women expect to be loved more than they love their husband/boyfriend, Women expect the man to jump through hoops to get them. It's not even about paying, I'll gladly pay. But as for all the rest, princessy is the perfect word I'd use to describe most women. Yeah no freaking wonder some men are bitter
waynebrady Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 But ... there's another recent thread here where one of our resident "experts" tells us that a woman offering to pay her share is to be considered a "red flag." How is anybody supposed to navigate this sea of confusion? I believe that here in the US, the person who does the inviting is tacitly agreeing to pay. If the guy referenced in the OP invited her first, she accepted, and then he told her it would be "Dutch," I think that is inappropriate. People who are dating get into a rhythm and understanding about how the paying is handled, but at the beginning of dating a new person, it can be difficult to sort through. And guys, why are you criticizing the women on this thread who like to be wined and dined? Our American society has long held this as "normal" dating behavior, and there are men and women both who enjoy things that way. Leave them to it, and stop complaining about "princesses." If you don't want to date that way - just don't. I'll gladly pay and wine and dine a woman I date. But what do I get back? I'm not talking about sex or anything(thats not until marriage), No what I mean is what does the woman actually do in dating and even in relationships for the man? I get the impression the "workload" is all on me as a guy...
xpaperxcutx Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Women expect the man to do everything to please them without getting anything back, Women expect the man to do all the work and put in all the effort, Women expect the man to initiate all contact in order to boost her self-esteem, Women expect to be loved more than they love their husband/boyfriend, Women expect the man to jump through hoops to get them. It's not even about paying, I'll gladly pay. But as for all the rest, princessy is the perfect word I'd use to describe most women. Yeah no freaking wonder some men are bitter Now you're being general... and I'm not going to turn this thread off-topic for the sake of argument. Again, I reiterate, a 60 pounds tab is too much; where I am dinner usually costs $30-$40 for a date. The problem here is that the guy wants to take her out but still expects her to pay her way.
xpaperxcutx Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 I'll gladly pay and wine and dine a woman I date. But what do I get back? I'm not talking about sex or anything(thats not until marriage), No what I mean is what does the woman actually do in dating and even in relationships for the man? I get the impression the "workload" is all on me as a guy... Aren't you the guy who says he never asks girls out and never goes on dates? Men asks women out because they're interested in them and dinner is merely the process of getting to know someone better.
Nexus One Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) The problem here is that the guy wants to take her out but still expects her to pay her way. From my understanding they both want and intend to go on a third date. If the tab weren't so high she would have been happy to go Dutch from what I understand, besides it's more common in Europe. In my opinion the guy needs to be more considerate regarding her financial level. Perhaps it hasn't crossed his mind yet that she's financially not so well off as he is. That's why I think she needs to say that that date is out of her budget range and propose an alternative. That'll give the guy the clue and if he then still wants to take her out in the way he intended, then he should pay. Alternatively he needs to date her in her budget range out of consideration for her. So that in my opinion are his two options if he intends to stick to his principles. Edited February 16, 2011 by Nexus One
waynebrady Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Now you're being general... and I'm not going to turn this thread off-topic for the sake of argument. Again, I reiterate, a 60 pounds tab is too much; where I am dinner usually costs $30-$40 for a date. The problem here is that the guy wants to take her out but still expects her to pay her way. "The " bitter" and more sexist men need to get off their princess argument" I was explaining to you why some men feel bitter, and it's not just about paying. I do think that the one who asks, also pays. But I think women seem completley oblivious as to why some men come across as bitter and angry. The way some of you women talk about relationships it really does seem like you expect to be treated like princesses, you're good at sugarcoating it but it's fairly obvious. It's kinda like if Mubarak critizised the egyptian people for being bitter for all these years. Well that was a vast exageration but you get my point. You women wonder why some men are bitter when you openly say the man should do all the work and that the man should love the woman more than vice versa and etc etc. That's bound to make some men here and there bitter.
xpaperxcutx Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 From my understanding they both want and intend to go on a third date. If the tab weren't so high she would have been happy to go Dutch from what I understand, besides it's more common in Europe. In my opinion the guy needs to be more considerate regarding her financial level. Perhaps it hasn't crossed his mind yet that she's financially not so well off as he is. That's why I think she needs to say that that date is out of her budget range and propose an alternative. That'll give the guy the clue and if he then still wants to take her out in the way he intended, then he should pay. Alternatively he needs to date her in her budget range out of consideration for her. So that in my opinion are his two options if he intends to stick to his principles.\ I swear, N, you are the voice of reason. I agree with everything you've said.
Untouchable_Fire Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 The " bitter" and more sexist men need to get off their princess argument. Women who want men to respect them aren't demanding, but when things come down to who pays the check, I wou think the more reasonable thing is whoever asks, pays. I mean in the OP's case, it's not even about being fair, it's about a guy sticking her with an unreasonable 60 pounds tab. That isn't unreasonable... I've easily paid that for dates and much, much more! We can't blame the guy because she doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to be honest about her fiscal issues.
TheBigQuestion Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Ahh yes, this wonderful topic. My answer stays the same every time it comes up. If you're a woman and you expect a guy to pay for you early on, and get pissed off when he doesn't, you're an idiot. Being alive, breathing, and female does not entitle you to a man's money before he's sufficiently gotten to know you. You prove to me that there's a connection, you prove to me that you want to see me more than one other time in the future, and then I'll gladly start paying for you. Any other system is patently unfair to men and encourages a ridiculous sense of entitlement in women.
LittleTiger Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Any other system is patently unfair to men and encourages a ridiculous sense of entitlement in women. I think it's funny how often men complain that woman apparently feel a sense of entitlement to be treated in a certain way. I don't think it has anything to do with a sense of entitlement, I think it all goes back to biology and the social development of our species. The 'gentlemanly' behaviours and character traits mentioned came about from the inequality of the sexes throughout the history of time. Males have been dominant over females since human beings first existed over 2 million years ago (or longer according to some scientists). 'Modern' females started pushing seriously for 'equality' only 100 years ago and modern men 'pretend' that they want women to share the burden of 'manhood'. There is an imbalance because biology and human society (mostly run by men) created it that way and because men are not happy about letting go of their superior position. Human males have been the providers and protectors of human females for 1999900+ years. To those of you who are expecting things to change overnight - 'dream on'. Things are changing very slowly but old habits die hard. The irony is that I can just imagine the outcry there would be if women really did start acting like men. We'd have threads all over LS asking "where did all the real women go", "what happened to feminine girls", "why does my girlfriend have to act like a man" etc etc etc. So any system you see as unfair, was actually created and perpetuated for generations by men and it isn't going to disappear any time soon.
sally4sara Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Even beyond the whole reasoning of it being entitled or just someone being traditional minded about the man/provider thing......... What does it indicate to a woman when a man pays the bill? In what way does this cull insincere suitors from the herd? Never once has paying prevented anyone from being an intolerable ass or an outright lying douche. Never once has it guaranteed the guy to be Mr. Perfect. Its like making all your relationship decisions with tarot cards. It just seems like such an easily navigated hurdle to proving ones worth to another that I can't see how it is successful. All him paying means is he wants to eventually have sex with you and if you require him to come out of pocket for it - he will.
daphne Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Am I understanding you both correctly? So you're saying that if a man and woman, who have roughly equal incomes, split bills 50/50, then the guy is selfish and bitter? He should actually be paying for all of it and then he's no longer selfish and bitter? Because taking the context into account that's what you both seem to be saying. Whoah. WTF? How do you make that leap from what I said? Listen, I don't think you guys realize how bad you sound. I never mentioned anything about being bought. I like when guys do sweet, attentive things. Open the doors, pull my chair back. Personally, I do not like cheap skates because it does tend to send the message that they're not very giving in the relationship. And ultimately, it evens out and you do end up being more equitable. It's what is known as old fashioned. If you guys want to moan and complain that women actually have the self esteem to want better treatment from men, then go find a doormat. And carry on with the next step of how we're gold diggers. Cos anyone dating me is usually going to be the one digging for gold. Unreasonable misogynist tripe.
Author jane100 Posted February 16, 2011 Author Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) Thanks for all your interesting and valuable comments, apart from the embittered ones, we all know who they are, I skip those names now. It is a sort of special event. Don't know about the meal afterwards actually and if I may decline that if I feel fed up. I will play it by ear. Its not a friendship thing, his interest is clearly romantic (or sexual) but I think he is slighly obsessed with being used, not coming from a generous place emotionally is my query, and also believes women should be equal, not necessarily a bad thing (but easy to say if you are free, well-off, independent, with no children). But that is a whole other issue. Anyway, I'm gonna enjoy myself either way! P.S. Frisky, you're such a tease! (Or is that me ....sorry!) Edited February 16, 2011 by jane100
waynebrady Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 If you guys want to moan and complain that women actually have the self esteem to want better treatment from men Better treatment? Men already treat women alot better than women treat men when it comes to dating and relationships in general.
Author jane100 Posted February 16, 2011 Author Posted February 16, 2011 It's about the emotional quality of being generous with yourself. It's gestures of esteem and goodwill. You give a little, you get a little. It's a dance of flirtation. It's romance. I just wanted to add how much I enjoyed this quote, a kind of poetry.
xpaperxcutx Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Better treatment? Men already treat women alot better than women treat men when it comes to dating and relationships in general. Again, aren't you the same guy who says he doesn't date? So, how would you know?
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