Wanting Intimacy w/o Sex

[StoneCold]

You need to understand that men generally focus on sex. He needs to understand that that women generally require the intimacy.

 

The both of you have to make an effort to meet halfway. Tell him your concerns AND welcome his concerns. Dont let it be you simply talking AT him. Once you both come to a fair agreement you both need to honour it. The problem I've seen with many is one side just doesn't honour what they agreed to or said. Then resentment sets in...then hurt...then things spin out of control and there may be no turning back....you fall into a nasty cannibalistic cycle where your rejection affects his willingness and his lack of willingness fuels your rejection.... and who do you blame when that happens? You cant point your finger at him and say "YOU....this is ALL your fault"...nor can he do that to you...all you'll be left with is hurt.

Edited February 17, 2011 by StoneCold

[Spices]

When we were much younger and our realtionship was new it was no problem to have sex 3+ times a week. What I hate is feeling like that is all I mean to my husband is just a set a boobs and a place to leave his sperm. I do not have the desire to be with my husband when he's not been kind to me, not been supportive, and we are not getting along. Having sex is not some magic formula that's going to make all that better and make everything different. The issues remain, the problems persist.

 

I see nothing wrong with wanting some intamacy in a marriage that is not about sex. My first husband and I had not problem with it, I don't know why it has to be an issue.

 

Ha, try reading this link:

 

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=62-0060927933-0

 

I recommend reading this book. It may help you understand the reasons behind why men need sex & woman need romance. It's almost like it's inverted... opposite land.

 

Why Sex Is So Important

 

We're all aware that sex tends to be more important to men while romance is more important to women, but we generally don't understand why. Without a deeper understanding of this fundamental difference, women commonly underestimate the importance of sex for men and many times judge them as superficial for wanting only one thing.

 

A woman's judgments begin to soften when she discovers the real reasons that some men seem to want only sex. With a deeper understanding of our sexual differences based on our historical development and social conditioning, she can begin to understand why, for many men, sexual arousal is the key for helping them connect with and realize their loving feelings.

 

For many men, sexual arousal is the key for helping them connect with and realize their loving feelings.

 

It is through sex that a man's heart opens, allowing him to experience both his loving feelings and his hunger for love as well. Ironically, it is sex that allows a man to feel his needs for love, while it is receiving love that helps a woman to feel her hunger for sex.

 

Sex allows a man to feel his needs for love, while receiving love helps a woman to feel her hunger for sex.

 

A man often misunderstands a woman's real need for romance and may feel instead that she is withholding sex. When he wants sex and she is not readily in the mood, he easily misunderstands and feels rejected. He does not instinctively realize that a woman generally needs to feel loved and romanced before she can feel her hunger for sex.

 

Just as a woman needs good communication with her partner to feel loved and loving, a man needs sex. Certainly, a man can feel loved in other ways, but the most powerful way a woman's love can touch his soul and open his heart is through great sex.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Spices

[StoneCold]

Ha, try reading this link:

 

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=62-0060927933-0

 

I recommend reading this book. It may help you understand the reasons behind why men need sex & woman need romance. It's almost like it's inverted... opposite land.

 

Thats an interesting book....

 

Not to generalize but I find women coming from latin based cultures that arent westernized (Central/South American, Italians, Spanish, Portugese....) tend to understand this the most.

 

They are demanding women but do they ever deliver...they know just how to treat a man and in return their needs as a woman are fulfilled as well.

[Spices]

Thats an interesting book....

 

Not to generalize but I find women coming from latin based cultures that arent westernized (Central/South American, Italians, Spanish, Portugese....) tend to understand this the most.

 

They are demanding women but do they ever deliver...they know just how to treat a man and in return their needs as a woman are fulfilled as well.

 

Exactly! I believe people should be more open minded to all aspects of things. The next time you feel like you're being "used" try to evaluate the situation first & look at things from his point of view. Also, stop worrying so much about it! Ignore the negative thoughts in your head that are telling you "he only thinks I'm a piece of meat" If that were the case he wouldn't be with you in the first place; he'd be content receiving all his pleasure form prostitutes/blow up dolls/whatever. Just relax & go with the flow.

 

btw I've also noticed that Latin/Mediterranean men tend to be more romantic & physically affectionate, in general. They certainly know how to make a woman feel alive. Maybe this aspect is based on the culture, which tends to be very loud & passionate in general. I've noticed that Americans tend to be a bit ridged; and yes, I blame this on culture.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Spices

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I've already been told that expensive gifts/thoughtful gestures/cooking/cleaning/flowers/vacations...... should never lead to EXPECTATIONS of sex....... So why should romance:mad:

[xxoo]

I've already been told that expensive gifts/thoughtful gestures/cooking/cleaning/flowers/vacations...... should never lead to EXPECTATIONS of sex....... So why should romance:mad:

 

I dislike the term romance, as well as things people typically label "romantic"....

 

But I think the idea is that genuine intimacy is the key to sexual desire in many women, while gifts and vacations are not.

[LittleTiger]

I dislike the term romance, as well as things people typically label "romantic"....

 

But I think the idea is that genuine intimacy is the key to sexual desire in many women, while gifts and vacations are not.

 

Absolutely - there is a big difference between intimacy and 'romance'.

 

The Don Juan's of this world are no doubt the 'kings of romance', but I'm pretty sure 'intimacy' is the last thing on their minds.

[giotto]

 

The Don Juan's of this world are no doubt the 'kings of romance', but I'm pretty sure 'intimacy' is the last thing on their minds.

 

 

lol... :laugh:

[Quiet Storm]

Yeah, but tell a man you want "intimacy" and he will think you mean sex. And if you tell him intimacy doesn't mean sex, he will be clueless on how to make you feel that you have intimacy...because most men show that with sex.

 

By taking sex out of the "intimacy" equation, you are taking away the most powerful tool in a man's "intimacy toolbox". If he is not an emotional type of guy, you are robbing him of the main way he expresses love.

 

For many men, what women define as intimacy does not come naturally.

 

You can tell them that it means "sharing of feelings", "being vulnerable and open", but this just does not come naturally for many men, so when they try to do this it just feels wrong to them.

 

Sharing feelings and being open are natural for most women. We thrive on feelings and emotions, and those feelings give meaning to our lives. Many women feel starved if they are not in a relationship where feelings and emotions are verbally expressed, just like men feel starved when sex is not provided.

 

Many women assume that expressing feelings and emotions is just as natural for men as it is for them. When men don't live up to their expectations, they take it personally. Just like men often take their wife's lack of a sex drive personally. We judge their actions based on what we would do, in error.

 

In the pursuit stage, men are often very romantic because they have learned that this is what women like. Women assume that their man is naturally romantic and take the showering of attention as a sign of love. When the man settles in and no longer needs to pursue, the romance is no longer necessary from his point of view. In his mind, he can stop the bull***** romance and express his love in his natural way: sex. When the romantic effort stops, many women think men are purposely holding back, or are no longer attracted to them. When he wants to express his love with sex, the woman feels used because she wants the attention and romantic part of it the sharing of feelings, the expressions of "love".

 

But many men will never get to the point where "the woman's definition of intimacy" comes naturally. At least not without therapy. Men are taught early on to curb their feelings, many are even punished or spanked for crying. This early training is not easy to undo, and it causes them to feel uneasy or uncomfortable expressing their emotions. Some men have a hard time even recognizing their emotions and labeling their feelings.

 

So they end up faking it. Usually they fake it by using romantic gestures or gifts, because this is what they have been taught "works on women".

 

If a woman wants to express love by cuddling and hugging, that is fine. But if your mate wishes to express his love with sex, that is fine for him, too. Do not fault him for this or act like he is "sex crazed". A man craving sex is going to be turned on by close physical contact.

 

Once the flag is raised, his physical urges become stronger. If he knows from the onset that you are not going to want sex, he will avoid the "cuddling time" because you have blocked his way of expressing love. Cuddling without sex will feel like rejection to him. However, if he is content with his sex life, he will be happy to cuddle because he is not deprived and does not feel rejected.

 

Women and men both often have unrealistic expectations from a marriage. But when a man is getting regular sex, it is usually a win-win situation for both spouses. IMO, men are generally happier, more agreeable, willing to cuddle and help out around the house when they are getting regular sex.

 

If you are a woman that is denying her husband sex, you should really reconsider because you are blocking his way to express his love. Long term, this will lead to him feeling rejected, and then resentment. A man that resents you will be much less willing to help you and will have a negative attitude towards you and the marriage.

[Sparty97]

Bravo Giotto, Bravo!

 

AVR's H sounds like he really has intimacy problems. He has a hard time emotionally connecting to AVR...if that does happen for too long, I understand how AVR can feel like a piece of meat.

 

If the ONLY time a man is tender, listening, and giving you his undivided attention is when he wants sex...yeah, that will become unfulfilling to many women.

 

Maybe he does have intimacy problems, but it sounds like she has plenty of her own. Intimacy doesn't HAVE to involve sex, but sometimes it should.

 

My wife and I have sex about once a month and she wonders why I don't want to snuggle all the time...it's not because it doesn't ALWAYS lead to sex, but because it NEVER does.

[Sparty97]

I dislike the term romance, as well as things people typically label "romantic"....

 

But I think the idea is that genuine intimacy is the key to sexual desire in many women, while gifts and vacations are not.

 

 

And yet so many women want intimacy without sex.

[StoneCold]

Yeah, but tell a man you want "intimacy" and he will think you mean sex. And if you tell him intimacy doesn't mean sex, he will be clueless on how to make you feel that you have intimacy...because most men show that with sex.

 

By taking sex out of the "intimacy" equation, you are taking away the most powerful tool in a man's "intimacy toolbox". If he is not an emotional type of guy, you are robbing him of the main way he expresses love.

 

For many men, what women define as intimacy does not come naturally.

 

You can tell them that it means "sharing of feelings", "being vulnerable and open", but this just does not come naturally for many men, so when they try to do this it just feels wrong to them.

 

Sharing feelings and being open are natural for most women. We thrive on feelings and emotions, and those feelings give meaning to our lives. Many women feel starved if they are not in a relationship where feelings and emotions are verbally expressed, just like men feel starved when sex is not provided.

 

Many women assume that expressing feelings and emotions is just as natural for men as it is for them. When men don't live up to their expectations, they take it personally. Just like men often take their wife's lack of a sex drive personally. We judge their actions based on what we would do, in error.

 

In the pursuit stage, men are often very romantic because they have learned that this is what women like. Women assume that their man is naturally romantic and take the showering of attention as a sign of love. When the man settles in and no longer needs to pursue, the romance is no longer necessary from his point of view. In his mind, he can stop the bull***** romance and express his love in his natural way: sex. When the romantic effort stops, many women think men are purposely holding back, or are no longer attracted to them. When he wants to express his love with sex, the woman feels used because she wants the attention and romantic part of it the sharing of feelings, the expressions of "love".

 

But many men will never get to the point where "the woman's definition of intimacy" comes naturally. At least not without therapy. Men are taught early on to curb their feelings, many are even punished or spanked for crying. This early training is not easy to undo, and it causes them to feel uneasy or uncomfortable expressing their emotions. Some men have a hard time even recognizing their emotions and labeling their feelings.

 

So they end up faking it. Usually they fake it by using romantic gestures or gifts, because this is what they have been taught "works on women".

 

If a woman wants to express love by cuddling and hugging, that is fine. But if your mate wishes to express his love with sex, that is fine for him, too. Do not fault him for this or act like he is "sex crazed". A man craving sex is going to be turned on by close physical contact.

 

Once the flag is raised, his physical urges become stronger. If he knows from the onset that you are not going to want sex, he will avoid the "cuddling time" because you have blocked his way of expressing love. Cuddling without sex will feel like rejection to him. However, if he is content with his sex life, he will be happy to cuddle because he is not deprived and does not feel rejected.

 

Women and men both often have unrealistic expectations from a marriage. But when a man is getting regular sex, it is usually a win-win situation for both spouses. IMO, men are generally happier, more agreeable, willing to cuddle and help out around the house when they are getting regular sex.

 

If you are a woman that is denying her husband sex, you should really reconsider because you are blocking his way to express his love. Long term, this will lead to him feeling rejected, and then resentment. A man that resents you will be much less willing to help you and will have a negative attitude towards you and the marriage.

 

 

Yup... Very good post.

 

I can attest to this...I'm in a sexless marriage and as a result I've become a **** husband that doesn't give a flying rats ass; I'm an awesome, loving dad to my daughter but one crappy husband and the glaring contrast really sends my message across.

Edited February 21, 2011 by StoneCold

[LittleTiger]

Yup... Very good post.

 

I can attest to this...I'm in a sexless marriage and as a result I've become a **** husband that doesn't give a flying rats ass; I'm an awesome, loving dad to my daughter but one crappy husband and the glaring contrast really sends my message across.

 

If it was really sending your message across, don't you think you'd be getting more sex?

 

Your wife probably hasn't even made the connection that you think is glaringly obvious!

[Honorable_Venerable]

If it was really sending your message across, don't you think you'd be getting more sex?

 

Your wife probably hasn't even made the connection that you think is glaringly obvious!

 

Not necessarily. There are three possible responses to the message (aside from "Message? What message?":laugh:):

"Oh, I'm hurting my partner - I'll do something about it";

2 "Oh, I'm hurting my partner - so what? I'm not hurting, it doesn't bother me"; and

3 "Oh, I'm hurting my partner - It's working!"

 

Only if the response is 1 will sending the message get you more of anything that you want. If it's 2, nothing will change, if it's 3 it could even get worse as the withholding partner realises how effective a tool it is.

[LittleTiger]

Not necessarily. There are three possible responses to the message (aside from "Message? What message?":laugh:):

"Oh, I'm hurting my partner - I'll do something about it";

2 "Oh, I'm hurting my partner - so what? I'm not hurting, it doesn't bother me"; and

3 "Oh, I'm hurting my partner - It's working!"

 

Only if the response is 1 will sending the message get you more of anything that you want. If it's 2, nothing will change, if it's 3 it could even get worse as the withholding partner realises how effective a tool it is.

 

Hang on, HV, you need to take a step back here.

 

When I said she may not be getting the message I did mean 'What message?'. I think sometimes men assume their actions are communicating things clearly when, often, they are completely lost on the woman.

 

How many times has TDP said he 'expects' sex because he's been doing the 'housework' (or something like that)? His wife has no knowledge of this unwritten contract - he's just assuming she understands and gets annoyed when his efforts are 'ignored'.

 

Stonecold's wife may not even have made the connection between his being a **** husband and the fact that she is hurting him, let alone one being the cause of the other.

[Sparty97]

If it was really sending your message across, don't you think you'd be getting more sex?

 

Your wife probably hasn't even made the connection that you think is glaringly obvious!

 

 

No, she probably gets it but giving in is beyond her capabilities, or she doesn't care as long as she gets to maintain her lifestyle.

[LittleTiger]

No, she probably gets it but giving in is beyond her capabilities, or she doesn't care as long as she gets to maintain her lifestyle.

 

No offence Sparty, but I think you need to know the intimate details of someone's marriage before you can make assumptions about what either party does or doesn't get and what they are prepared to do or capable of doing to put things right.

[Sparty97]

No offence Sparty, but I think you need to know the intimate details of someone's marriage before you can make assumptions about what either party does or doesn't get and what they are prepared to do or capable of doing to put things right.

 

 

Yes I think that's true...for both of us.

[LittleTiger]

Yes I think that's true...for both of us.

 

Of course. The difference is, I don't believe I have made assumptions about anyone's marriage and I'm certainly not taking sides. I'm asking questions and challenging his belief about the dynamics of his marriage.

 

If you've ever read any of my previous posts on similar topics you'll see that, when I do take sides, I actually side more often with the man.

 

In this case, your post implied that the wife is at fault because all she cares about is maintaining her lifestyle. How on earth can you draw such a conclusion when we've been given so little information?

 

Perhaps you know the poster personally. If so, my apologies. I base my answers on what I know about the person I'm responding to - in Stonecold's case that's virtually nothing.

[Sparty97]

Of course. The difference is, I don't believe I have made assumptions about anyone's marriage and I'm certainly not taking sides. I'm asking questions and challenging his belief about the dynamics of his marriage.

 

If you've ever read any of my previous posts on similar topics you'll see that, when I do take sides, I actually side more often with the man.

 

In this case, your post implied that the wife is at fault because all she cares about is maintaining her lifestyle. How on earth can you draw such a conclusion when we've been given so little information?

 

Perhaps you know the poster personally. If so, my apologies. I base my answers on what I know about the person I'm responding to - in Stonecold's case that's virtually nothing.

 

Actually you assumed she didn't know what he was doing (being a lousy husband), I assumed she did know.

[Mz. Pixie]

The problem is that they are caught in a cycle- and someone has to step up and be the hero.

 

Most women do not get how important sex is to a man. When you reject a man sexually you reject who they are-not just the sex. Especially if it's all the time. It's not just about orgasm-it's about how they connect and how they feel about themselves. I guarantee you- a man who has been freshly laid the night before goes into that meeting with a client with more confidence and a spring in his step. His wife thinks he's a winner and she loves him evident by what happened the night before- he can slay dragons.

[LittleTiger]

Actually you assumed she didn't know what he was doing (being a lousy husband), I assumed she did know.

 

Actually, no. What I said was she probably hadn't made the connection between him being a **** husband (his words) and her refusing to have sex.

 

As I said before, my words were intended to help him see things from her point of view, yours appeared to be making nasty assumptions about his wife's motives.

 

That's my perception anyway - if I misunderstood, or if I put my point across badly, then I apologise.

 

This little 'exchange' of ours actually illustrates my point. It's another example of how easy it is for people to misunderstand one another. For two people like us, on an internet forum it doesn't matter at all, but for a married couple it can result in abject misery and ruined lives.

 

That's way AVR1962 posted this thread in the first place (though she seems to have disappeared now). She and her husband are apparently unable to communicate their needs to one another - it's a very old story - and not just on LS.

[StoneCold]

If it was really sending your message across, don't you think you'd be getting more sex?

 

Your wife probably hasn't even made the connection that you think is glaringly obvious!

 

Perhaps she knows but just doesnt care....

 

Theres always that possiblilty

[Honorable_Venerable]

Hang on, HV, you need to take a step back here.

 

When I said she may not be getting the message I did mean 'What message?'. I think sometimes men assume their actions are communicating things clearly when, often, they are completely lost on the woman.

 

 

I took that into account, when I said "Message? What message?" Once the message has been received, then see above. Oh, plus the fourth possibility, what might be called the "Nelson approach", deliberately ignoring that a message is being sent. Like Nelson said at Copenhagen, when he put his telescope to his blind eye: "I really do not see the message - I am entitled to be a little blind at times!" Especially when you don't WANT to receive the message.

[LittleTiger]

I took that into account, when I said "Message? What message?" Once the message has been received, then see above. Oh, plus the fourth possibility, what might be called the "Nelson approach", deliberately ignoring that a message is being sent. Like Nelson said at Copenhagen, when he put his telescope to his blind eye: "I really do not see the message - I am entitled to be a little blind at times!" Especially when you don't WANT to receive the message.

 

Well, from what I know about your wife HV, I think the 'Nelson approach' is a very likely possibility. She seems to be afraid of seeing the message and, hopefully, her therapy will help her face her fear.

 

Going back to the other possiblities, if a woman does get the message and her thought pattern or response is anything but option 1, then I'm not sure why a man would want to stay married to her. To me, when you reach that level of uncaring, or even deliberatly wanting to hurt your partner, the marriage is pretty much over.