NoIDidn't Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Very interesting question, and my response is very similar to yours, OWoman. BS and I are very different in many ways. We're most similar in the fact that we are low-maintenance in terms of appearance, and we have the same sense of humor. Beyond that, I'm athletic and rugged and outdoorsy, whereas she is a homebody. My interests in terms of hobbies and work closely mirror those of the man we both love. Maybe kids caused him to lose the outdoorsy woman his W used to be? I responded to this post because it seemed to consider traits of those being cheated on, not just the traits one feels that they carry alone. The girl my H had an EA with was a nice, local girl. She likely admired that he was one of the only people of her race in a management position in the company that she came in contact with on a regular basis. He might have liked that she was a young dreamer type. He'd stopped dreaming with me. Her boyfriend stopped dreaming with her. While I'd definitely say for many reasons that he "affaired down", it certainly wouldn't be in the area of looks. Of course, I will never say she looked better than I do, but she was certainly pretty (a part-time model, and I used to do that a little younger than she was too). She wrote poetry. Me too! She was involved in the arts. Me too! One night I was performing and she was on the staff and we (she and I) didn't know that the other was present. But she was really young and not as mature relationship-wise and financially as I was. This is part of my reason for feeling that he "affaired down". Its certainly not to insult her. The other reasons might be too insensitive to some, so I won't post them. When he came to his senses, he didn't say anything negative about her beyond that she didn't seem to understand how some of her decisions limited her. Especially her financial decisions. She seemed flighty about some things. But she could have said the same about him. During the EA, he did things with her that he rarely, if ever did with me. He actually wrote things WITH her. Something he hadn't done with me since our courtship. I definitely agree with Spark that the reason for the cheating is really what determines the up or down movement in comparisons of the Spouse vs. the OP. For those that don't feel the MP is affairing down, it could be that their marriage is really fine and the affair "just happened" because you were friends and the attraction has been there for years. It doesn't prove that the MP is affairing up, per se. And I don't say that to offend anyone. I've never seen a married person "affair up" or "down" solely. Its always been management with the secretary (I know, a cliche), the housewife with the guy at the grocery store, or some other more power vs. less power situation. One of them will perceive their situation as "up" and others (like their friends or co-workers) might agree. But the other is likely thinking "I'm not leaving my spouse for the bagger at my grocery store". Which really means "I'm not leaving my 'security' for a less secure situation, no matter how they make me feel". The other is more concern with the feelings gained, not the actual social status of the person they are cheating with. Because really, when we say "affairing up" or "affairing down" we are really looking at social status. And the people in these affairs do indeed think about these things and weigh the feelings against the OP's social status should they leave or get caught. (sorry, I rambled)
LucreziaBorgia Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Basically, what this means is that the person someone cheats with tends not to be as attractive, interesting, engaging, etc. as the primary partner who is being cheated on... From posts in other places and here, I get the idea too that it doesn't necessarily have to do with looks/personality/status - for some, anyone who would willingly and knowingly sleep with a married person is considered 'a step down' from the primary partner who is legitimately in the relationship. (not my emphasis, but the emphasis I've seen here and there). I guess it depends on who you ask really.
ladydesigner Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 I don't really agree with the "affairing-up or down" concept anymore. I feel it always leads to judgements that aren't very nice. My XOM was not anything like my H, but I shared something in common with each of them that was different from the other. My XOM was not as attractive, but was intriguing in conversation and very talented. I actually have more in common with my H, but he had become totally emotionally distant and had cheated on me more than once. I felt worthless and abandoned. My XOM was there for me emotionally, plain and simple, it didn't matter what he looked like to me at that point. Both my H and XOM made less money than me so that remained consistent. It was more or less filling the void that was missing in my marriage and XOM filled that void.
Summer Breeze Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 It depends on the reason they are cheating, I think. If you want to be sexually desired, or admired by your peers for being sexually desired, you may hope to have that in a hotter, younger partner, intellect and personality not all as important as willing. If you need to be validated, admired, or to feel very important, you may find yourself attracted to a sweet, but less educated, less personable, less fun, than the partner you have at home, hence affairing down. You feel superior to that person, and that may be the ego boost you need. I think the attraction to another is based on what you need. And sometimes they're not looking for anything they just fall in love.
East7 Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 I don't really believe in A-down or A-up concept. I hate the very idea that WS gives him/her the right to compare two persons, still have a relationship with each of them at the same time ! I am physically different from my xMW's H but for what I have learned from her we have similar personalities. Anyway I would never allow myself to compare with him who's better. We are just two different persons.
Spark1111 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I don't really believe in A-down or A-up concept. I hate the very idea that WS gives him/her the right to compare two persons, still have a relationship with each of them at the same time ! I am physically different from my xMW's H but for what I have learned from her we have similar personalities. Anyway I would never allow myself to compare with him who's better. We are just two different persons. That's fine and I take it you were secure enough to NOT have to seek nor listen to comparisons from your xMOW. In my sitch, she kept trying to convince him of how she was the better steward of him, she truly loved him and would do anything for him. Hell, she even tried to convince him I must have a boyfriend! Not all affairs are a competition between the AP and the spouse. But some are. They really are. And you have to wonder the insecurities that lead to that dynamic!
ladydesigner Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 That's fine and I take it you were secure enough to NOT have to seek nor listen to comparisons from your xMOW. In my sitch, she kept trying to convince him of how she was the better steward of him, she truly loved him and would do anything for him. Hell, she even tried to convince him I must have a boyfriend! Not all affairs are a competition between the AP and the spouse. But some are. They really are. And you have to wonder the insecurities that lead to that dynamic! My A with XOM was not a competition at all. It wasn't until the A was over and XOM stayed with his long-term girlfriend, that I became jealous. I started comparing myself to her. I'm not sure if my XOM felt the need to compare himself to my H. There was a point in which he said "Your H doesn't even know what he's got!" So maybe he did feel jealous. But the insecurity for me didn't happen until it ended.
Spark1111 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I don't really believe in A-down or A-up concept. I hate the very idea that WS gives him/her the right to compare two persons, still have a relationship with each of them at the same time ! I am physically different from my xMW's H but for what I have learned from her we have similar personalities. Anyway I would never allow myself to compare with him who's better. We are just two different persons. Whether they A up or down, they are always of the "grass is greener" variety.
anne1707 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I hate the very idea that WS gives him/her the right to compare two persons, still have a relationship with each of them at the same time ! I never "gave" the ex-OM the "right to compare" himself to my H but I know he did. I should add that I gave him hell when he did. It was bad enough me betraying my H without the ex-OM twisting the knife in the back even more.
pureinheart Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 OP- this topic looks familiar...lol I agree with LD and LB ... Looks can fade, so I think the real test would be compatibility. Him and I totally had fun together and had a lot in common. Due to him not having much of a R with his exW he was quite hungry for companionship, to have someone do the same things as he liked ....so on that note, I'd say he A-up and so did I.
pureinheart Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 My A with XOM was not a competition at all. It wasn't until the A was over and XOM stayed with his long-term girlfriend, that I became jealous. I started comparing myself to her. I'm not sure if my XOM felt the need to compare himself to my H. There was a point in which he said "Your H doesn't even know what he's got!" So maybe he did feel jealous. But the insecurity for me didn't happen until it ended. I can totally see how a competition could take place, and I have seen it many times. For me...nope...too much work, there are so many better things to do in life...lol. Competition means someone "wins". R aren't like that for me, it's about who I love and want to be with. Had I thought his M was what he wanted I would have never given him the time of day in that respect. LD, the statement he made, "your H doesn't know what he's got", is a very high compliment. Men don't throw compliments like that around for no reason...that was a very wonderful thing for him to say and I have no doubt it's totally the truth!
wheelwright Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 I don't really agree with the "affairing-up or down" concept anymore. I feel it always leads to judgements that aren't very nice. My XOM was not anything like my H, but I shared something in common with each of them that was different from the other. My XOM was not as attractive, but was intriguing in conversation and very talented. I actually have more in common with my H, but he had become totally emotionally distant and had cheated on me more than once. I felt worthless and abandoned. My XOM was there for me emotionally, plain and simple, it didn't matter what he looked like to me at that point. Both my H and XOM made less money than me so that remained consistent. It was more or less filling the void that was missing in my marriage and XOM filled that void. Well I found all this thread quite disconcerting till at last I read LD's post. Let's just say that if you find an AP that you love, they will also be seen as an equal. And if you find one you don't love, it will be easier for you if they are less powerful - in looks, money or charm. When you give them up.
Spark1111 Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 I never "gave" the ex-OM the "right to compare" himself to my H but I know he did. I should add that I gave him hell when he did. It was bad enough me betraying my H without the ex-OM twisting the knife in the back even more. Happens all the time Anne. Unfortunately, the BS has NO IDEA they are in a competition. They are home feeling all is ok in R land.
Spark1111 Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 And sometimes they're not looking for anything they just fall in love. And then they should respectfully inform their spouse and stop sneaking around like adolescents trying to keep something from mommy and daddy! That is the grown up way to conduct themselves.
Spark1111 Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 OP- this topic looks familiar...lol I agree with LD and LB ... Looks can fade, so I think the real test would be compatibility. Him and I totally had fun together and had a lot in common. Due to him not having much of a R with his exW he was quite hungry for companionship, to have someone do the same things as he liked ....so on that note, I'd say he A-up and so did I. When my fWS put the same effort into our R. to have fun, to talk, to confide, to date me, to woo me, to laugh with me.....he was amazed how compatible we were....how much fun we had, how great it was to be together. He had grown compacent, stopped seeing me, stopped enjoying me waaaay before he ever crashed into her. You can't be the only person working in a marriage. It takes two!
Shocking Pink Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Idk,people will think whatever they want to think and see things the way they want to see them! I used to make my living off of being pretty, nobody was affairing down with me in terms of looks. But other qualities, who knows? MM1's wife is still good looking and she's very classy from what I have seen, she has a lot of nice tasteful things that cost more than most of what I have, but I dont' dress like a tart. Both MM's wives didn't have to struggle in jobs that some people call trashy and never had children outside of wedlock. So if you are going to think that I'm trashy bc I am a single mom and I had to work to put myself through school, then you'll probably think MM affaired down. On the other hand, those womens husbands paid for their schools and bought them nice houses while I did everything by myself. So who is to say they are better than me? I'm beautiful, hard-working, a good mom, and a lot smarter than I look! They are pretty good women too, from what I know, just different! Maybe sometimes it is safe to assume that the man has pretty good taste all the way around?
bentnotbroken Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Idk,people will think whatever they want to think and see things the way they want to see them! I used to make my living off of being pretty, nobody was affairing down with me in terms of looks. But other qualities, who knows? MM1's wife is still good looking and she's very classy from what I have seen, she has a lot of nice tasteful things that cost more than most of what I have, but I dont' dress like a tart. Both MM's wives didn't have to struggle in jobs that some people call trashy and never had children outside of wedlock. So if you are going to think that I'm trashy bc I am a single mom and I had to work to put myself through school, then you'll probably think MM affaired down. On the other hand, those womens husbands paid for their schools and bought them nice houses while I did everything by myself. So who is to say they are better than me? I'm beautiful, hard-working, a good mom, and a lot smarter than I look! They are pretty good women too, from what I know, just different! Maybe sometimes it is safe to assume that the man has pretty good taste all the way around? Sometimes it is safe to assume that all parties involved will tell themselves anything they need to in order to get through the day or make their lives bearable from what it really is.
seren Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 To echo Spark, the OW tried to get my H to think I was having an A, would try to put me down by saying she would look after him, cook meals, do the ironing etc etc. As I was the main earner working my backside off so we could follow our dreams and save for our future I worked long hours and dammed hard, so yes, she probably could have cooked more and as for the ironing, we all do our own. The little comments were meant to show H that I wasn't being a good enough wife. H told her that I would never have an A, that I had very high morals and integrity (that word again), these are his words not mine. Frankly it was a bit of a misonomer him talking about honesty and integrity when he was having an A. But it was one of the things that he said afterwards that pulled him up and made him think WTF he was doing. He has said very derogatory things about the OW, which I find irritating and don't allow. But he would say he had affaired down. Affairing up or down isn't just about looks, intelligence or money, depends on your values I suppose and the dynamics of why people cheat. I am sure some do because they are in love with the AP, some because they are looking for excitement or escape and some because there is something broken in themselves. The AP will, IMO, reflect this. It isn't a competition, as has been said, it can only be a competition between the AP and BS if they are both aware they are in the same race.
Spark1111 Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Idk,people will think whatever they want to think and see things the way they want to see them! I used to make my living off of being pretty, nobody was affairing down with me in terms of looks. But other qualities, who knows? MM1's wife is still good looking and she's very classy from what I have seen, she has a lot of nice tasteful things that cost more than most of what I have, but I dont' dress like a tart. Both MM's wives didn't have to struggle in jobs that some people call trashy and never had children outside of wedlock. So if you are going to think that I'm trashy bc I am a single mom and I had to work to put myself through school, then you'll probably think MM affaired down. On the other hand, those womens husbands paid for their schools and bought them nice houses while I did everything by myself. So who is to say they are better than me? I'm beautiful, hard-working, a good mom, and a lot smarter than I look! They are pretty good women too, from what I know, just different! Maybe sometimes it is safe to assume that the man has pretty good taste all the way around? That is exactly what I did assume of my fWS's OW. Be proud of yourself! I too, am a totally self-made woman who never received a dime or allowed a man to pay for me! I made my own way, and assumed she did too! However she was very angry about it, where I just took life like it came at me and made the most of it. Some people just love to play that victim card because it nets them so much attention, KWIM? Never did that. Never will. It is just not me.
Bittersweetie Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 I am sure some do because they are in love with the AP, some because they are looking for excitement or escape and some because there is something broken in themselves. The AP will, IMO, reflect this. I realize now that when I was looking for an A, I was completely broken inside. And when I look back at my AP, I see much clearer now how he was broken too. So we both reflected our broken-ness in the other, and thought it made us both stronger. TBH, I never compared the AP with my H...I compartmentalized the heck out of things and kept the two of them separate...expect for the fact that the AP had the same exact car as my H. That was a weird feeling. But to me, there was no "up" or "down," it was my AP filling in the gaps that I should have been filled in by my H or myself.
Shocking Pink Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 That is exactly what I did assume of my fWS's OW. Be proud of yourself! I too, am a totally self-made woman who never received a dime or allowed a man to pay for me! I made my own way, and assumed she did too! However she was very angry about it, where I just took life like it came at me and made the most of it. Some people just love to play that victim card because it nets them so much attention, KWIM? Never did that. Never will. It is just not me. Spark I totally know what you mean I have met a lot of angry, moaning victims too. Life is hard all the way around and it's definitely not always fair, we all just have to do what we can and try to find our way to be happy!
Mutant Debutante Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Well, I only know what I observed for one person, my mom, and she always affaired down. She liked to have her fun with basically any guy who would party with her, go on a bender with her, give her some free blow. She made some half-assed efforts to hide it but I did end up meeting a few of the men and they were all scuzzballs. I know my stepdad would never have stayed as long as he did if it wasn't for me and my sisters, because he would not have legally been able to see anyone but my baby sister if they divorced.
Summer Breeze Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 And then they should respectfully inform their spouse and stop sneaking around like adolescents trying to keep something from mommy and daddy! That is the grown up way to conduct themselves. They all should it doesn't matter if something is broken or missing in them or not.
Summer Breeze Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 I'm uncomfortable with this topic because by saying you affair up or down you're implying someone is better or worse than you are. I'm sorry but I can't do that to any degree. I understand the premise but what's wrong with someone who hasn't been to college or someone who may weigh 30 lbs more than someone? Why am I better because I make more money or because I stay at home with the kids? No one is better. No one is worse. I had some horrific things happen to me in my adult life and I turned away from who I was. I became someone different so I could escape what happened to me. When I coped with what I went through I found myself again and I left that other person behind. I wasn't worse than anyone else and now that I'm better I'm not better than anyone else. I would hate for someone to make a judgement of me based on that 8 month period. At least not one that was going to stick. My best friend in HS married an abusive man and suffered at his hand terribly. She had been a loving and wonderful teenager and she knew she could make him better. She ended up losing herself and had a 2 year period where she was in the gutter. I really hope no one judged her in that period either. I'm not saying this to support OW or BS. Well yes I am. Both of us. My 2p anyway.
ladydesigner Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 I'm uncomfortable with this topic because by saying you affair up or down you're implying someone is better or worse than you are. I'm sorry but I can't do that to any degree. I understand the premise but what's wrong with someone who hasn't been to college or someone who may weigh 30 lbs more than someone? Why am I better because I make more money or because I stay at home with the kids? No one is better. No one is worse. I had some horrific things happen to me in my adult life and I turned away from who I was. I became someone different so I could escape what happened to me. When I coped with what I went through I found myself again and I left that other person behind. I wasn't worse than anyone else and now that I'm better I'm not better than anyone else. I would hate for someone to make a judgement of me based on that 8 month period. At least not one that was going to stick. My best friend in HS married an abusive man and suffered at his hand terribly. She had been a loving and wonderful teenager and she knew she could make him better. She ended up losing herself and had a 2 year period where she was in the gutter. I really hope no one judged her in that period either. I'm not saying this to support OW or BS. Well yes I am. Both of us. My 2p anyway. Yes I definitely agree with the bolded! Great post!
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