Mrlonelyone Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 This is branched off a thread about women liking bad boys. I posed the question would Albert Einstein and Mohandas Ghandi be considered nice guys or bad boys? Are you kidding me? Ghandi was a notorious criminal. He spent half his life in prison. I know that and you know that. However a good number of people don't look at it that way. I posed the question here.. http://www.girlsaskguys.com/Other-Questions/369225-were-einstein-and--or-ghandi--alpha-males.html While no one voted an outright "no" a couple have argued that neither of them were Alpha males. I get the feeling that most people use those terms "bad boy" and "Alpha male" in pretty much the same way. To indicate someone who is essentially a bully. These terms and ideas originated in the science of Evolutionary Psychology. The idea being that things like a womans mate selection criteria are what they are because of how humans evolved. There is a huge problem the idea that ALL women prefer bad boy/Alpha males on some basic level. Since it seems that for most women such person is simply a physically dominating male. "Someone who can protect them" etc. The huge problem is that if women choose such men for mates ,on average, the result would have been a species of much lower mental ability than we are. Remember when we evolved we did not live alone. We have always survived in groups of related individuals, tribes or small bands. My questions for you all to ponder are these: If women are simply attracted to physically dominant alpha male/bad boys then why do women go crazy for the Einstein's, Ghandi's, Justin Beiber's, Pablo Picaso's, and even Adam Lambert's of the world? If most women really are so shallow in their mate selection, and we no longer have any natural hazards to "thin the herd" will we not all dumb down to this point. http://www.spike.com/video/first-10-minutes-of/2811209 Evolving into a world full of retards.
Woggle Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Somebody like Ghandi who stood in the face of oppression and did not back down was a stronger man than any juiced up tough guy talking about how alpha he is
EasyHeart Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 You have some very, very strange definitions. Since when has "alpha male" ever been equated with "bully" or "juiced up tough guy"? I'm very much an alpha male and throughout my life people have looked to me for leadership, but I've certainly never had anyone call be a bully or juiced-up tough guy! Einstein was a notorious womanizer. So were many other scientists. Any successful man is going to have plenty of romantic options and may take advantage of that. (Yes, scientists have "groupies", too!) Just because a man is intelligent or successful or a leader does not mean that he exploits women or abuses them. Your post is non-sensical.
Author Mrlonelyone Posted February 7, 2011 Author Posted February 7, 2011 Easy those aren't my definitions I agree with you. If you read most websites that are about Alpha males or "bad boys"... They more or less describe thugs, bully's, and doucebags as being desirable . I don't think such websites are correct. However allot of young men and women do. ( Have you read any of the post by "WayneBrady" ?) By the by I know scientist have groupies...at least famous scientist do. Which one would think should prove to all the young men out there trying to be "alpha" or a "bad boy" that the whole concept is rubbish.
welikeincrowds Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 "Nice guys" and "bad boys" are pop culture stereotypes. Of course you're going to have trouble fitting tremendous men like Ghandi and Einstein into terms so shallow. If women are simply attracted to physically dominant alpha male/bad boys then why do women go crazy for the Einstein's, Ghandi's, Justin Beiber's, Pablo Picaso's, and even Adam Lambert's of the world? Listen: Einstein, Ghandi, Picasso -- and to a far lesser and temporary extent, Beiber -- these are people are known worldwide by a one-word name. There are no "Picassos of the world". There's just "Picasso". Think about that. These are the people we've chosen to represent the species. Why? Because we want what they have, and what they have to give. That said, we've always been retards, OP, can't argue you on that one.
Cee Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 I would consider Ghandi, Einstein, Picasso the epitome of Alpha males. They were absolute supreme in the work they did. And they changed the world for future generations. Their love/sex lives were complex, btw, especially because Ghandi was celibate yet had women sleep aside him to test his resolve. Don't know why you lumped Lambert and Bieber with them, but they are celebrities which is Alpha status in some fashion. But Lambert is gay, so if women are throwing themselves at him, they won't get far. I don't buy lumping Alpha and bad boys together. I think "bad boys" are damaged and addicted in some way. And damaged and addicted women are attracted to that. At least, I was. Alpha is about security, competence, confidence. I think women find that irresistible because they want that for themselves. Or women are already confident and secure and want an equal partner. Reifying some concept like Alpha is a false idol in my opinion. Every man and woman has Alpha within. All they have to do is tap that resource through self-love and it will radiate out from within like light beams. And then love interests will be attracted.
EasyHeart Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 If Ghandi wasn't an alpha male, I don't know who was. He was the leader of hundreds of millions of people! From what I've read about Picasso, he was pretty much the ultimate bad boy. Although we all know that Pablo Picasso never got called an *sshole. (That's a musical reference, for those of you who are unenlightened! )
EasyHeart Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 My Picasso joke in my earlier post made me realize that those song lyrics (its an early punk song by the Modern Lovers) are actually relevant to this thread, so I looked them up! Well some people try to pick up girls And get called *ssholes This never happened to Pablo Picasso He could walk down your street And girls could not resist his stare and so Pablo Picasso was never called an *sshole Well the girls would Turn the color of the avacado When he would Drive down their street in his El Dorado He could walk down your street And girls could not resist his stare Pablo Picasso never got called an *sshole Not like you Alright Well he was only 5'3" But girls could not resist his stare Pablo Picasso never got called an *sshole Not in New York
Author Mrlonelyone Posted February 7, 2011 Author Posted February 7, 2011 @Cee I agree that the likes of Einstein and Ghandi are too outsized for easy categorization as Alpha males. However understand the mind set that uses the terms Alpha and Beta male. Oh there are plenty of Picasso's and Einstein's etc of the world. Scientist and artist, doctors and engineer's, regardless of appearance or physical prowess get laid, get dates, get married, and show leadership all the time. They don't need to be famous. (I for example am a grad student at a good private university here in Chicago. I study the big bang. If I just wanted to have sex, play with the emotions of young coed's I could. I am "mrlonely" because I am looking for a real connection with a woman...or even a man.) What I'm railing against in this thread is the fact that according to many websites and message boards that focus on this topic the people I mention would not be called Alpha males. Even though they are some of the most influential men of their ages. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-an-alpha-male.htm http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/137_dating_advice_a.html Or look at the images that come up when a google search is done on the term. http://www.google.com/images?q=Alpha+male&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=WAVQTcGrIYbGlQf6soH-Dw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=7&ved=0CHMQsAQwBg&biw=1360&bih=643 For example Picasso as Easy Heart pointed out was a short man. According to most Alpha male theory he could not be "dominant" enough to get laid. I have seen some people write of Barrack Obama, and George Bush Sr and Jr the presidents of these United States as being beta males! http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/did_we_elect_a_beta_male_as_pr_1.html http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:IZOphiiPNm4J:www.venusianarts.com/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D6163+George+Bush+Beta+male&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com The idea in all three cases being that their very political ability and non threatening appeal to policy and logic made them "beta". :-/ Somehow men who have sent thousands to die and bombed the crap out of nations are Beta all because they don't act like total jerks. There are millions of our young men and women who subscribe to that twisted philosophy. One which has them thinking achieving high political office is too "nice" to get women? @Easyheart. You better believe that Adam Lambert could probably screw any woman he wanted if he was so inclined. He just does not want to. There is a difference between that and not being able to get a woman. In fact I would bet that any moderately attractive gay man over 35 has had at least one full sexual encounter with a woman and get hit on as much as comparable straight men.
welikeincrowds Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 What I'm railing against in this thread is the fact that according to many websites and message boards that focus on this topic the people I mention would not be called Alpha males. Who cares, man?
Eeyore79 Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Women want high value, successful males. A man isn't just high value by being a tough bad boy - he can also be high value by being wealthy, being a genius, having a good career, being popular or talented, etc. Einstein and Picasso etc are the epitome of high value males. I think women are more likely to classify men as low value and high value, rather than as nice guys or bad boys. A nice guy who is low value is probably unattractive to women, but give him loads of money and suddenly he's high value and attractive without changing any of his other attributes - this proves that it isn't his niceness that's the problem, but rather his lack of value in the eyes of women.
Author Mrlonelyone Posted February 7, 2011 Author Posted February 7, 2011 Women want high value, successful males. A man isn't just high value by being a tough bad boy - he can also be high value by being wealthy, being a genius, having a good career, being popular or talented, etc. Einstein and Picasso etc are the epitome of high value males. I think women are more likely to classify men as low value and high value, rather than as nice guys or bad boys. A nice guy who is low value is probably unattractive to women, but give him loads of money and suddenly he's high value and attractive without changing any of his other attributes - this proves that it isn't his niceness that's the problem, but rather his lack of value in the eyes of women. Bingo! All the men who come here and moan that they have been called nice need to realize what you just said. It's not that they are "nice" that is the problem. It is that they really have no redeeming qualities or they are running with a crowd who's women don't value their qualities. Then these men get these "self help" systems which preach that they need to be jerks, a holes, and pump up (welikeincrowds this is why I care.) Bill gates is not a bad boy. Bill gates is not a pumped up "alpha" as it seems many think of such men. He's the epitome of the nerd. But with his Jillions of dollars he could probably bang anyone he wanted. He didn't need to because in his crowd he found a woman who valued his abilities dated her for a long time then married her. The problem of men who can't get a GF, or a date, or a social life is that they are with the wrong crowd.
waynebrady Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 However allot of young men and women do. ( Have you read any of the post by "WayneBrady" ?) Where have I said that? I have never said alpha-males are bullys, thugs or douchebags. Infact I have barely even talked about alpha males.
Author Mrlonelyone Posted February 7, 2011 Author Posted February 7, 2011 No you have talked incessantly about needing to be "dominant"...and how you need to make more money than the woman etc etc etc. The label you use is not imporant it's the concept that in order to find a woman you have to be a certain way. There are as many ways to be that will get a woman as their are women on Earth.
EasyHeart Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Okay, now I think I'm getting it. Apparently someone has co-opted the term "alpha male" in order to sell books on how to pick up chicks? Is that it? When I think of alpha males, I think of CEOs, managing partners at law firms and chiefs of surgery at hospitals, not pumped up guidos hanging out in a bar. Sounds like the male equivalent of the books that purport to teach women how to be "bitches". Both are pretty worthless -- you can't pretend to be something that you're not. It sounds like you might be pretty young. IME, most young women either don't know what they want or aren't looking for a husband. Their instincts tell them to look for football players or rock stars, not doctors and lawyers. But it changes a lot when they grow up. Trust me on that.
Jazzari Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Women want high value, successful males. A man isn't just high value by being a tough bad boy - he can also be high value by being wealthy, being a genius, having a good career, being popular or talented, etc. Einstein and Picasso etc are the epitome of high value males. I think women are more likely to classify men as low value and high value, rather than as nice guys or bad boys. A nice guy who is low value is probably unattractive to women, but give him loads of money and suddenly he's high value and attractive without changing any of his other attributes - this proves that it isn't his niceness that's the problem, but rather his lack of value in the eyes of women. Spot on. Women are attracted to power.
waynebrady Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 No you have talked incessantly about needing to be "dominant"...and how you need to make more money than the woman etc etc etc. The label you use is not imporant it's the concept that in order to find a woman you have to be a certain way. There are as many ways to be that will get a woman as their are women on Earth. No I have never talked about being dominant(try to find any post were I have specificly talked about dominating a woman). You seem to think I'm some kinda 1950's style guy who expects the woman to do everything for me while I'll slap her around if she doesn't. Yes I want to earn more money than the woman. But you failed too see the whole point in that thread. Women have the upper-hand in EVERYTHING else. If she has the upper hand financially(earns more) then where am I left? I would have done the chasing in the beggining(women have the upper-hand there) I get less love and affection from her than I give(womens upper hand) I would have to beg and work to get any sex at all even just once every 3 months, not that I have any experience but I know thats how it works.(so women have the upper hand there too) Me earning more money would be the only thing keeping her from having all the power in the relationship. You don't understand, if I earn more money that makes things EVEN. If she earns more money(women already have the upper hand in everything else) then she has all the power and it wouldn't be balanced. Again I have barely even talked about alpha males. So don't put words in my mouth. I don't think alpha males are just about being mean, dominant and earning more money and behaving like a jerk... For the record I would consider Ghandi an alpha male. Now if you would be so kind, stop making stuff up about what I have actually said.
Author Mrlonelyone Posted February 7, 2011 Author Posted February 7, 2011 No I have never talked about being dominant(try to find any post were I have specificly talked about dominating a woman). You seem to think I'm some kinda 1950's style guy who expects the woman to do everything for me while I'll slap her around if she doesn't. Yes I want to earn more money than the woman. But you failed too see the whole point in that thread. Women have the upper-hand in EVERYTHING else. If she has the upper hand financially(earns more) then where am I left? I would have done the chasing in the beggining(women have the upper-hand there) I get less love and affection from her than I give(womens upper hand) I would have to beg and work to get any sex at all even just once every 3 months, not that I have any experience but I know thats how it works.(so women have the upper hand there too) Me earning more money would be the only thing keeping her from having all the power in the relationship. You don't understand, if I earn more money that makes things EVEN. If she earns more money(women already have the upper hand in everything else) then she has all the power and it wouldn't be balanced. Again I have barely even talked about alpha males. So don't put words in my mouth. I don't think alpha males are just about being mean, dominant and earning more money and behaving like a jerk... For the record I would consider Ghandi an alpha male. Now if you would be so kind, stop making stuff up about what I have actually said. Every post you made yesterday (2/6/2011) was about how you needed to be the breadwinner and how you needed to have the upper hand etc etc. Same concept different name.
waynebrady Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Every post you made yesterday (2/6/2011) was about how you needed to be the breadwinner and how you needed to have the upper hand etc etc. Same concept different name. BUT FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Read my posts again. I want to make things EVEN. I don't want the upper hand in the whole relationship. I would want to have the upper hand financially but The woman has the upper hand in EVERYTHING else. That would make things EVEN. Otherwise if the woman had the upper hand financially then she would have ALL THE POWER, she would have the upper hand in EVERYTHING. and then it would not be a balanced relationship Sorry for the caps, but seriously? Try reading my whole posts and not just digging out bits and pieces to fit your agenda towards me.
Author Mrlonelyone Posted February 7, 2011 Author Posted February 7, 2011 It sounds like you might be pretty young. IME, most young women either don't know what they want or aren't looking for a husband. Their instincts tell them to look for football players or rock stars, not doctors and lawyers. But it changes a lot when they grow up. Trust me on that. Don't be mistaken this posting, like many others of mine are not about me or even for my own personal benefit. It's just an observation that we see allot of posting about being a "bad boy" or "alpha male" needing to "dominate" etc etc. I am not that young, but just old enough to know that dominance stuff is mostly BS and that I am not old enough to be wise (i'm almost 31). As for women's taste changing as they grow that's true. However I would say that's only true for some women. Many women never outgrow that immaturity, and don't really want to outgrow it. On the other hand I never really had that problem. Since I personally was always one of the top 10 smartest guys...and had a reputation for being well...bad. Really bad. My problem has never been finding women willing to have sex, it's been finding women willing to have a meaningful relationship. That's the downside of being the big bad black man when the women attracted to you are from subcultures where interracial dating is still largely taboo.
AD1980 Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) its psycho babble nonsense..the internet is the only place i hear this being a huge deal.. ive seen men with all different types of personalities with women Edited February 7, 2011 by AD1980
Kaplan Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 I always thought "alpha male" specifically meant "bully." Like with animals, the alpha male is the one who bites the other males on their heads until they let him have sex with all the females.
Titania22 Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 I am kind of disappointed. I thought this thread was going to be about how we seem to be moving closer to the world in Idiocracy. I would have agreed, the stupid people do seem to be out procreating the smart ones, at least from what I can see.
LittleTiger Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 As far as I'm aware the term 'alpha male' has been coined from our understanding of the animal kingdom where the 'leader of the pack' is considered the 'alpha' - and it's always a male. So, to me, an 'alpha male' among humans is a man who is a leader. That usually means he has a strong, confident personality, is self-assured, probably highly independent and has the courage to fight for what he believes in. He may go against the crowd and isn't afraid to 'stand-up-and-be-counted'. That description pretty much acurately describes a man like Ghandi, from what I know about him. I find men like this extremely attractive and I don't equate this 'alpha' or leadership quality with bullying. However, potentially I can see that in some instances a man with a very strong character might be perceived in this way. A 220lbs of muscle, 'bad boy', who can 'pull' any woman he wants by flashing his testosterone fuelled body at them is not my definition of an alpha male. That's not to say such a man couldn't be an 'alpha', but to me he would need all of the above character traits in addition to the physical presence.
Author Mrlonelyone Posted February 8, 2011 Author Posted February 8, 2011 As far as I'm aware the term 'alpha male' has been coined from our understanding of the animal kingdom where the 'leader of the pack' is considered the 'alpha' - and it's always a male. So, to me, an 'alpha male' among humans is a man who is a leader. That usually means he has a strong, confident personality, is self-assured, probably highly independent and has the courage to fight for what he believes in. He may go against the crowd and isn't afraid to 'stand-up-and-be-counted'. That description pretty much acurately describes a man like Ghandi, from what I know about him. I find men like this extremely attractive and I don't equate this 'alpha' or leadership quality with bullying. However, potentially I can see that in some instances a man with a very strong character might be perceived in this way. A 220lbs of muscle, 'bad boy', who can 'pull' any woman he wants by flashing his testosterone fuelled body at them is not my definition of an alpha male. That's not to say such a man couldn't be an 'alpha', but to me he would need all of the above character traits in addition to the physical presence. That's very correct little tiger. The thing is the 220 lb bully seems to be what FAR to many people think being a desireable Alpha male is. The truth is, as I pointed out in one of my first post the Alpha male is simply the father of the family. He provides the food, and protection from other males... That's in the Animal kingdom. Among people true Alphaness comes from being a leader. Among humans being a leader is more about your brain than brawn. So long as a man could throw a spear or fire an arrow truer than the next guy he was Alpha. @Titania22 That last point leads on to what I was getting at with idiocracy. Think about it. Most men these days couldn't grow, or hunt food to save their own skins. Most women have no idea about gathering. We go to a store where fresh vegtables and meat magically appear. One no longer needs to use their brain just to survive. So what are we getting? More and more slow fat people who find things like this funny. http://science.discovery.com/tv/an-idiot-abroad/ How is that so different from an episode of "Ow my balls"? http://www.break.com/usercontent/2007/3/21/ow-my-balls-254551
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