Yamaha Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 Traditonally the man does the pusuing, I'm fine what that. Women have their reasons for making the man "chase"(such as seeing that the guy isn't just after sex). Some say it's biological, And I agree with that. Men have always been the chaser, and among animals too it's almost always the male who chases the female. But still though, you can't deny this tradition is in your favor as a woman. Traditionally the man earns more money and is the primary breadwinner in a marriage or long term relationship, this is also more or less biological. Men have always been the breadwinners aslong as mankind has existed. And most men want to provide, thats in our nature. This I guess could be said is more in our favor as men. I would chase/pursue a woman if I liked her enough, but I also wouldn't pursue a woman unless she was a league below me financially. Hey thats just how it is... Can you imagine how emasculating it would for me as a man to chase a woman who makes more money than me? Honestly I wouldn't do that no matter what. Alot of women say men should chase, it's in our nature, it's our duty to pursue and etc etc. But also wants to earn as much or more than the man. (offcourse it should be equal pay for the same job no matter male/female though). That way I see it. Either you play it traditional in both aspects or you don't play it traditional at all. Women with good careers who earns more or as much as the man really shouldn't come and say the man should pursue or initiate everything. A self respecting man won't pursue a woman who earns more than himself. What are your oppinions on this? Your discribing the traditional "alpha male". He would make more than his SO and would chase and woo her in dating. Not a bad thing, depends on how you view a relationship ( man, king of his castle ) or if you want more of a partnership with your SO.
Nexus One Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 I would chase/pursue a woman if I liked her enough, but I also wouldn't pursue a woman unless she was a league below me financially. Hey thats just how it is... Can you imagine how emasculating it would for me as a man to chase a woman who makes more money than me? Honestly I wouldn't do that no matter what. Women with good careers who earns more or as much as the man really shouldn't come and say the man should pursue or initiate everything. A self respecting man won't pursue a woman who earns more than himself. What are your oppinions on this? The income of a women does not matter to me at all. I really do not care how much less they make or if they're swimming in it. I want her for her, not her money or lack thereof.
Author waynebrady Posted February 6, 2011 Author Posted February 6, 2011 Your discribing the traditional "alpha male". He would make more than his SO and would chase and woo her in dating. Not a bad thing, depends on how you view a relationship ( man, king of his castle ) or if you want more of a partnership with your SO. The vast majority of all men chase and woo the woman, does that make them all alpha males? Women have the advantage in the early stages of dating and marriages/long term relationships too. And thats ok, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna be with a woman who has the advantage financially too. As a man I do the chasing, advantage = woman As a man I will get less love and affection than I give to the woman, advantage = woman If she earned more, advantage = woman It might seem silly do give so much thought to this stuff, But I can't help it. It just wouldn't work if I have the "lower" hand in every aspect of the relationship.
Yamaha Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 The vast majority of all men chase and woo the woman, does that make them all alpha males? I beg to differ. Not all men chase women but those that do I would classify as alpha males ( at least in respect to seeing a women and pursuing her ). There are many men who do not pursue but show their interest in other ways ( hanging out, friendship, etc ) and they would have no problem with letting the women make more than them.
Mrlonelyone Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 The vast majority of all men chase and woo the woman, does that make them all alpha males? Women have the advantage in the early stages of dating and marriages/long term relationships too. And thats ok, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna be with a woman who has the advantage financially too. As a man I do the chasing, advantage = woman As a man I will get less love and affection than I give to the woman, advantage = woman If she earned more, advantage = woman It might seem silly do give so much thought to this stuff, But I can't help it. It just wouldn't work if I have the "lower" hand in every aspect of the relationship. A quick word on Alpha males. The alpha male idea comes out of the study of wolf packs. The scientist who coined the term now feels that it is used incorrectly. In a nutshell the alpha male was thought of as being a physically dominant bully. In truth in wild wolves the alpha male is simply the father of the family. A male finds a female, has children with her and their pups grow to be their new pack. Applying this to humans an alpha male would be any man with a wife, and children.
Nexus One Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 A quick word on Alpha males. In a nutshell the alpha male was thought of as being a physically dominant bully. In truth in wild wolves the alpha male is simply the father of the family. A male finds a female, has children with her and their pups grow to be their new pack. That's not (entirely) true. A pack is not a family, it often contains more males that compete with the alpha male and fight with him for dominance. This doesn't happen in human family units, but it does happen in human social groups. Packs are social groups.
daphne Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 I dream of finding a woman who makes more money than me! I would gladly clean the house, cook the meals, take care of the kids, wash her clothes, and screw her brains out in exchange for not having to work. I will need to learn how to do pilates and complain a lot, but I am sure I could do it. Will you marry me?
daphne Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 The income of a women does not matter to me at all. I really do not care how much less they make or if they're swimming in it. I want her for her, not her money or lack thereof. That's a balanced approach, imo. I think men and women should want a partner, not ultimate power.
Author waynebrady Posted February 6, 2011 Author Posted February 6, 2011 That's a balanced approach, imo. I think men and women should want a partner, not ultimate power. In the beggining you as a woman have all the power, because the man is the one chasing you. In a long term relationships, things even out because even if the man earns more money... he gets less love and affection from the woman than he gives to her. It's not about wanting to have absolute power, It's about not wanting to have the lower-hand in every aspect of the relationship. Am I so awful for not wanting to be at the disadvantage in everything? it's easy for you as a woman to say...
daphne Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 In the beggining you as a woman have all the power, because the man is the one chasing you. In a long term relationships, things even out because even if the man earns more money... he gets less love and affection from the woman than he gives to her. It's not about wanting to have absolute power, It's about not wanting to have the lower-hand in every aspect of the relationship. Am I so awful for not wanting to be at the disadvantage in everything? it's easy for you as a woman to say... I can appreciate you not wanting to have the lower hand in every aspect, but I would appreciate that with either gender. I think you have a chip on your shoulder about female power. As if you have none of your own or must figure out ways to ensure you have some of your own in teh relationship. I think your'e kind of obsessed about it, to be honest. Women do not own all of the power. Perhaps they have a little more in the beginning, but men have the power to stop calling and choose someone else. It's a 2 way street. At least it should be.
Author waynebrady Posted February 6, 2011 Author Posted February 6, 2011 I can appreciate you not wanting to have the lower hand in every aspect, but I would appreciate that with either gender. I think you have a chip on your shoulder about female power. As if you have none of your own or must figure out ways to ensure you have some of your own in teh relationship. I think your'e kind of obsessed about it, to be honest. Women do not own all of the power. Perhaps they have a little more in the beginning, but men have the power to stop calling and choose someone else. It's a 2 way street. At least it should be. Alright explain your thinking here. "You have none of your own" Whats that supposed to mean? I'm a regular every day joe, not everybody is a multi-millionaire media or real estate moguls. "must figure out ways to ensure you have some of your own in teh relationship." I don't want to be completley powerless and have the lower-hand in every aspect, is that so hard to understand? "I think your'e kind of obsessed about it" I started writing about this like a few days ago. It's nice that you find ways to insult me in a subtle way "Women do not own all of the power." Not all, but most of it. Men usually have the "power" financially... without that you would infact as a woman have every upper-hand. "Perhaps they have a little more in the beginning, but men have the power to stop calling and choose someone else." Men initiate everything, put in all the effort and do everything to try and win you over. I'd say it's pretty clear, women have the advantage here.
Mrlonelyone Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 That's not (entirely) true. A pack is not a family, it often contains more males that compete with the alpha male and fight with him for dominance. This doesn't happen in human family units, but it does happen in human social groups. Packs are social groups. Between beliving you and the expert in that video I linked who's been studying wolves for 30+ years I take the expert. In wild wolves all the males are related and sons of the Alpha male. Just like in a pride of lions. Those sons of the Alpha wolf go out get a female or two and start having their own pups. Those pups become their pack. That's what he said, and he has a Dcotorate and coutless peer reviewed publications. Do you have any peer reviewed publications in journals about this topic? I don't think so.
daphne Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 Alright explain your thinking here. "You have none of your own" Whats that supposed to mean? I'm a regular every day joe, not everybody is a multi-millionaire media or real estate moguls. "must figure out ways to ensure you have some of your own in teh relationship." I don't want to be completley powerless and have the lower-hand in every aspect, is that so hard to understand? "I think your'e kind of obsessed about it" I started writing about this like a few days ago. It's nice that you find ways to insult me in a subtle way "Women do not own all of the power." Not all, but most of it. Men usually have the "power" financially... without that you would infact as a woman have every upper-hand. "Perhaps they have a little more in the beginning, but men have the power to stop calling and choose someone else." Men initiate everything, put in all the effort and do everything to try and win you over. I'd say it's pretty clear, women have the advantage here. Sorry, I wasn't trying to insult you. You have too many bolds for me to know what to do with, so I'll try to summarize. Your thinking is somewhat inflexible and I guess I don't understand why you think the way you do. I don't think this is going to bring you about the happiness you want. I've seen your posts a lot in the past and there was a similar melancholy/powerlessness/angry at women feel to them. I feel you would be better off if you tried a more positive approach and recognizing what power you do have, and no I dont' mean financial. A good man with character and quiet confidence has much power over a woman. He's worthy of respect and is going to be strong when she needs it. And he won't tolerate being treated poorly, no matter what effort he has put in to getting her. A man who is afraid of women invites bad women into his den. You choose which one you want. A woman who respects you as a strong man, or a shrew who has you doing everything for her with nothing in return? To a certain extent, your thinking creates your reality. We believe what we tell ourselves. What you're telling yourself is defeating you. Ok that wasn't brief, but I strongly believe in this.
Mrlonelyone Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 Nexus one In case you missed it. Dr. L. David Mech L. David Mech (pronounced "Meech") is a Senior Scientist with the Biological Resources Division, U.S. Geological Survey and an Adjunct Professor in the Department of Fisheries, Wildlife and Conservation Biology, and Ecology, Evolution and Behavior at the University of Minnesota. He has studied wolves and their prey since 1958, as well as several other species of wildlife. Although administration of his U.S. Geological Survey research is through Northern Prairie Wildlife Research Center, he is headquartered on the St. Paul Campus of the University of Minnesota in the Gabbert Raptor Center, 1920 Fitch Ave., St. Paul, MN 55108. Mech is also founder and vice chair of the International Wolf Center, and chair of the IUCN Wolf Specialist Group. Mech has used radio-tracking for most of his career on wolves, deer, leopards, caribou, elk, lions, elephants, raccoons, lynxes, elk, hares, etc. For basic info, see Handbook of Animal Radio-tracking, and for info about satellite and GPS collars, see "A critique of wildlife radio-tracking and its use in national parks: a report to the National Park Service". His publications http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Dr.+L.+David+Mech&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=ws Now if you folks want to keep applying that terminology learn what it means.
Lovelybird Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 That is what I believed, that who has more money who has upper hand. For example, my sis earned much more money than her hb, she treated him with no respect. Even I feel sorry for him. But another woman I know she earns much much much more than her husband, but she respects her husband very much. When her husband says no, she doesn't even argue with him, at least not openly. Her husband is a strong guy although he doesn't earn much money. I guess money cannot define if a man is strong enough or not, on some degree maybe, but cannot define all. And to be honest, I have hard time to respect a man who wants to rely on a woman for bread.
Mrlonelyone Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 @daphne You can try but I don't think it will work. There are some people, male and female for whom all relationships are about power and the balance thereof. Charity, empathy, ... overall nice ness to them means to be weak. It's a difference in personality and world view that discussion will not change.
Mrlonelyone Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 That is what I believed, that who has more money who has upper hand. For example, my sis earned much more money than her hb, she treated him with no respect. ........... And to be honest, I have hard time to respect a man who wants to rely on a woman for bread. That has to do with how you were raised. It's a cultural value not a universal trait of all people which is what the OP was saying. Can I ask why you would have trouble respecting a man who made less than you? What is your profession? Could it be that the other woman you mention is a high powered professional who could expect that most mere mortals will make less than her?
Lovelybird Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 That has to do with how you were raised. It's a cultural value not a universal trait of all people which is what the OP was saying. Can I ask why you would have trouble respecting a man who made less than you? What is your profession? Could it be that the other woman you mention is a high powered professional who could expect that most mere mortals will make less than her? I didn't mean I cannot respect a man who makes less than me, I mean I cannot respect a man who rely on me for the bread, and he totally gives up his responsibilities. he makes a woman feel like a man, and frustrate a woman because she cannot feel like a woman. My future profession would be similar with a teacher.
Author waynebrady Posted February 6, 2011 Author Posted February 6, 2011 Sorry, I wasn't trying to insult you. You have too many bolds for me to know what to do with, so I'll try to summarize. Your thinking is somewhat inflexible and I guess I don't understand why you think the way you do. I don't think this is going to bring you about the happiness you want. I've seen your posts a lot in the past and there was a similar melancholy/powerlessness/angry at women feel to them. I feel you would be better off if you tried a more positive approach and recognizing what power you do have, and no I dont' mean financial. A good man with character and quiet confidence has much power over a woman. He's worthy of respect and is going to be strong when she needs it. And he won't tolerate being treated poorly, no matter what effort he has put in to getting her. A man who is afraid of women invites bad women into his den. You choose which one you want. A woman who respects you as a strong man, or a shrew who has you doing everything for her with nothing in return? To a certain extent, your thinking creates your reality. We believe what we tell ourselves. What you're telling yourself is defeating you. Ok that wasn't brief, but I strongly believe in this. I'm not gonna get as much in return as I give in terms of affection/love from a woman who respects me either. Hence why I want to not have the lower-hand in terms of money, to make things even. Heres an example. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3232927&postcount=5 Since it's gonna be that way. I have to be able to maintain some amount of self respect by atleast making more money, which is the thing I can. It's pretty sad that some men earn less than the woman and get loved less than he loves the woman back. Infact it's not even sad, it's pathetic. And I aint that type of guy who lets people roll over me and have all the advantages...
florence of suburbia Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 If you desire someone you have a strong urge to pursue that person, whether you're male or female. To act or to not act on that urge is a choice. Women may hold back because (1) it turns women on when men pursue them. This is biology. (2) so they can assess the man's level of interest in the relationship. If he's not intersted enough to pursue, maybe he just isn't all that interested.
Nexus One Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) Between beliving you and the expert in that video I linked who's been studying wolves for 30+ years I take the expert. In wild wolves all the males are related and sons of the Alpha male. Just like in a pride of lions. Those sons of the Alpha wolf go out get a female or two and start having their own pups. Those pups become their pack. That's what he said, and he has a Dcotorate and coutless peer reviewed publications. Do you have any peer reviewed publications in journals about this topic? I don't think so. No I don't. I just happen to know that's it's possible for wolves of 1 pack to join another pack. Edit: Here you go, this article says that wolves from other packs can leave and join other packs: http://tinyurl.com/5trt6nh Edited February 6, 2011 by Nexus One
Author waynebrady Posted February 6, 2011 Author Posted February 6, 2011 If you desire someone you have a strong urge to pursue that person, whether you're male or female. To act or to not act on that urge is a choice. Women may hold back because (1) it turns women on when men pursue them. This is biology. (2) so they can assess the man's level of interest in the relationship. If he's not intersted enough to pursue, maybe he just isn't all that interested. I have said pretty much all along that if I desire a woman I would pursue her, to a certain point. I'm not gonna go overboard, if the woman isn't reciprocating atleast a little bit why should I continue? I do not like it when women play hard to get, it's emasculating. I'll pursue if I like the woman and she isn't playing games with me. And I won't pursue/chase forever either, it has to come to an end at some point... not after a year later.
tami-chan Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 I have said pretty much all along that if I desire a woman I would pursue her, to a certain point. I'm not gonna go overboard, if the woman isn't reciprocating atleast a little bit why should I continue? I do not like it when women play hard to get, it's emasculating. I'll pursue if I like the woman and she isn't playing games with me. And I won't pursue/chase forever either, it has to come to an end at some point... not after a year later. I think you are way too sensitive. You are too easily "emasculated', don't you think? Anyhow, you are within your rights not to do anything unacceptable to your standards. BTW, a year of pursuing is too long, if you are doing that, cut it(a lot) shorter(where is your dignity?????)-you are trying too hard and too long !
Stung Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 Traditionally the man earns more money and is the primary breadwinner in a marriage or long term relationship, this is also more or less biological. Men have always been the breadwinners aslong as mankind has existed. And most men want to provide, thats in our nature. This I guess could be said is more in our favor as men. Women with good careers who earns more or as much as the man really shouldn't come and say the man should pursue or initiate everything. A self respecting man won't pursue a woman who earns more than himself. What are your oppinions on this? Here's a fun little factoid for you, wayne: for the vast majority of human history, humans lived in hunter-gatherer tribes. In these tribes, women gathered fruits, herbs, leaves, vegetables etc. that made up about 80% of the average diet for the whole tribe. The men hunted for meat, which made up about 20% of the tribe's diet. To suggest that men have been the sole 'breadwinners' of small family units since the dawn of time is grossly misleading and factually inaccurate. I dream of finding a woman who makes more money than me! I would gladly clean the house, cook the meals, take care of the kids, wash her clothes, and screw her brains out in exchange for not having to work. I will need to learn how to do pilates and complain a lot, but I am sure I could do it. I know three current househusband/Stay-at-Home-Fathers, one of whom is my brother-in-law, and I have another good friend who supports her husband and son (who is in daycare) while her husband works on his art. She pays for his art studio, as well. It's not as vanishingly rare a lifestyle as a lot of people on this board seem to think. If you were to try it, however, you might find that being the 24/7 caretaker of young children is more difficult than you seem to think. Personally I did earn less than my husband when we met, but he would have been just as happy with me if I earned more, probably more so. We live in an expensive area.
Woggle Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 I have no issue making more than my wife and we earn about the same as each other but some women really have a hard time respecting a man who earns less than her. Overall I do find that a good deal of women these days want a man who acts like a stereotypical man and the independent ballbusting types want an alpha the most. As for chasing I find that woman do like a man who makes an effort but if she is making no effort back what is the point?
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