Freaking out....

[Star Gazer]

Your friend is doing the same thing many people on LS do - getting frustrated.

 

Yup. Her very best friend, who knows her in real life and loves her to pieces, but who unlike LS is a trained psychologist, sounds just as frustrated with OG's cycle.

 

OG: Your BFF WAS, just like LS, being your friend...not your therapist. But she's right. Please listen to her.

[GivenUp0083]

iJester is right, and Kamile is wrong.

 

She still has the URGE and DESIRE to mess this whole thing up. It shouldn't be about "controlling" herself not to be a crazy-girl and hide the fact she's upset he hasn't texted back in 30 min. It's the fact she feels this way in the first place that is the issue. THIS IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR.

 

OG, you need help, you NEED TO SEE A THERAPIST! It's not the worst thing in the world, I dont know if you're ego is so damn high you think you're above it or something, but you need help, and need it badly.

 

How do you feel right now? Do you like this? Do you enjoy this? Aren't you sick of feeling this way? You can talk to someone who will help you feel better and act in a more healthy manner. You are driving yourself and other guys crazy. Please stop dating and see a counselor. I've done it, it was one of the best decisions I've ever made. Please help yourself.

[Chocolat]

He should have said "NO, I want to call you tonight"

 

 

OG, this -- expecting him to override your suggestion of a chat tomorrow by insisting on a call tonight -- is a love test. "If he really loved me he'd want to talk tonight." (Similar to: If he really loved me, he'd text more often. Or sooner. Or whatever.) But... the problem is that he doesn't know it's a test and he can easily fail (as he did) without it meaning he doesn't love you. He may have thought your offer of chatting tomorrow was genuine. In fact, he may even love you a little bit more now that you have taken into consideration his busy week and deferred a call tonight for a chat tomorrow.

 

 

Ah Ocean girl! I'm glad it worked out - even though you don't seem to think it all worked out. I think you got upset, made up this worst case scenario in your head, tried to find proof that it was the truth and now you're still convinced that your worst case scenario is real. It's hard to switch emotional gear once we've invested so much energy worrying about something, but the facts don't match your worst-case scenario.

 

Well said. OG, I don't think your BF is pulling back. What may be happening is that he is becoming more comfortable with the r/s and thinks he can tell you when he's busy and not have it be a problem. He does not know what it going on in your head because, although your thoughts and conclusions seem logical and inevitable to you, they do not represent the way he thinks. So what you perceive as deliberate withholding -- he's being rude in not texting immediately -- he sees as the normal give-and-take of texts. Yes, even if he responded immediately up until this week. That may have been the 'first bloom of love' creating an accelerated texting schedule. Now that he feels secure in the r/s, he may be settling into his natural pattern.

 

Consider that you already have plans for this weekend, he won money or a trip (or something - don't recall the specifics) that he said he wants to share with you, he was sexting with you just a couple of days ago... all this adds up to a man is who is interested in you!

 

 

I am really trying not do what I did in the past. In the past when something like this happened, I would act out and cancel the weekend plans just to "one up" him. I was SO tempted to do this.

 

Please don't do this. Not only does striking first not alleviate or avoid pain, it prevents you from knowing how things would have gone had you not jumped.

 

Have a wonderful weekend with your guy!

[Mme. Chaucer]

I hope you will take some of the great advice offered to you on this thread.

 

If you will notice, almost all of it is in the same vein, with different styles of delivery.

 

There is no relationship possible that can survive, much less blossom and thrive, in this kind of condition. Do you understand that?

 

It's not too late at all, though, IF you really want to be in a RELATIONSHIP with THIS guy.

 

A RELATIONSHIP. This does not mean an environment where all of your needs for validation are met 100% at all times and at any cost. It just does NOT mean that.

 

An intimate relationship is a place where both people have equal rights to be exactly who they are, to get to know one another, to share a lot of things together, to decide where and how they are going to establish personal and private space within the relationship, to learn to accept the waxing and waning of intensity, attention, excitement, distance that are inherent in interpersonal relationships. And a lot more.

 

Is this what you are interested in having? Are you interested in having it with THIS GUY, as he really is as a person? If you are, are you willing and able to step away from your own patterns? To listen to what other people tell you and acknowledge that you might be terribly wrong? (Since you reach out to other people extremely frequently)

 

Or, maybe, did this guy just fit into your picture because he looks a certain way and behaved like he was absolutely 100% "into you"?

 

Please, please give this some thought.

[Mme. Chaucer]

OG, this -- expecting him to override your suggestion of a chat tomorrow by insisting on a call tonight -- is a love test. "If he really loved me he'd want to talk tonight." (Similar to: If he really loved me, he'd text more often. Or sooner. Or whatever.) But... the problem is that he doesn't know it's a test and he can easily fail (as he did) without it meaning he doesn't love you. He may have thought your offer of chatting tomorrow was genuine. In fact, he may even love you a little bit more now that you have taken into consideration his busy week and deferred a call tonight for a chat tomorrow.

 

Or, if he is temperamentally similar to you, he is going to take your suggestion that he call tomorrow rather than tonight as a personal rejection just like you would.

 

Regarding the "love tests." Think about it. Nobody is going to pass many "love tests" because the tester has only ONE correct response in mind, while in reality there are thousands or more possible reactions / responses that the tested person could choose. What are the chances that he is going to pick the magical single one that is "right"?

 

Two more things:

 

OG - if this does not pan out, I really hope that you will address your own issues with sense of self before getting deeply involved with another guy. I know you said that all therapists were useless to you. If you find a therapist that specializes in Dialectical Behavior Therapy I think this could really help you. You would need to step away from your certainty that you are "right" though and have a lot of willingness to change, and to have more happiness with other people in your life.

[Cee]

To piggyback off of Mme Chaucer, I have a policy to keep things as low drama as possible during an early relationship. I pretty much try to keep the activity and laughing to a maximum and the processing to a minimum.

 

The process of developing intimacy is very slow so it's going to feel superficial in the beginning, but that's okay. Over time the seeds of attraction and interest take root and grow into love and deep caring.

[Kamille]

She still has the URGE and DESIRE to mess this whole thing up.

 

I agree. I recognize she still has the urge and desire to act on her emotions, but I congratulate the fact that she resisted acting on these emotions.

 

That's baby-step number 1.

 

Rome wasn't built in one day.

 

People's reactions on here, especially the comments about seeking a therapist, conjoined with discourses of "normalcy" are inconsistent. Exactly how do you think a therapist would tackle OG's case? By 1) invalidating her emotions and actions saying they're not normal or 2) by recognizing that OG has the right to feel how she feels, encouraging her to see different potential interpretations to what OG is convinced is true and supporting her when she succeeds in not acting on her impulses?

 

I do encourage anyone to seek therapy. Don't get me wrong. But there's a discrepancy between encouraging someone to seek therapy and then acting in a completely non-therapeutic way, expecting the OP to "snap out of things", deciding what actions she should take, commenting on what we think is normal or not normal.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Kamille

[Star Gazer]

2) by recognizing that OG has the right to feel how she feels, encouraging her to see different potential interpretations to what OG is convinced is true and supporting her when she succeeds in not acting on her impulses?

 

OG may have a "right" to feel the way she does, but the way she is THINKING is NOT HEALTHY.

 

Holding back from bad actions means little in the grand scheme of things if it's her THOUGHT PROCESS that's making her so unhealthy.

 

I think she should be helped to change her thinking first and foremost.

[Kamille]

OG may have a "right" to feel the way she does, but the way she is THINKING is NOT HEALTHY.

 

Holding back from bad actions means little in the grand scheme of things if it's her THOUGHT PROCESS that's making her so unhealthy.

 

I think she should be helped to change her thinking first and foremost.

 

My CBT therapist would reply that changing the response to the thought process is the first step in changing the thought process itself. It's empowering the person to step back from the thought process, thus helping them to learn to 1) identify when they lapse into dysfunctional thought processes and 2) therefore give them the power to challenge that initial thought process.

 

We learn our thought processes through socialization and real life experience. Change the life experience and you create a space to change the thought processes.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I

 

That's baby-step number 1.

 

Rome wasn't built in one day.

 

Baby steps are wonderful, provided that the stepper, at least sometimes, maintains the ground gained until it's time to take the next baby step.

 

People's reactions on here, especially the comments about seeking a therapist, conjoined with discourses of "normalcy" are inconsistent. Exactly how do you think a therapist would tackle OG's case? By 1) invalidating her emotions and actions saying they're not normal or 2) by recognizing that OG has the right to feel how she feels, encouraging her to see different potential interpretations to what OG is convinced is true and supporting her when she succeeds in not acting on her impulses?

 

I hope you are not thinking that I have touted "normalcy." I myself hardly have a grasp on the concept.

 

I do not expect OG to "snap out of" anything. I think change is a long and challenging road for any of us. The more ingrained the patterns - the more difficult the change. I do think that OG (sorry for referring to you in the 3rd person; here we go again with that), like anyone else, would need to take accountability for her own part in her problems, which I rarely have seen, and to be willing to turn away from her need for control on a daily basis (a huge leap of faith ... and that in itself is profoundly therapeutic, IMO) in order to have a different path with interpersonal relationships.

 

The "baby step" required to walk on that path could likely look like a commitment to stay with a therapist and to absolutely follow instructions she agreed to follow, and to be accountable when she did not, regardless of how she "feels" or her opinion of the therapist as time goes on. Of course, this would require a careful choice of therapist first.

 

The type of therapy that I believe would help OG (DBT) focusses much more on action (even though internal) than on self analysis. The Wikipedia description is pretty concise:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_behavior_therapy

[zengirl]

This thinking/action thing is very chicken/egg. FTR, I think what many people think OG gets wrong are her perceptions, not her "feelings." I don't think people are actually attacking her feelings; just questioning the conclusions she is drawing.

 

Of course, nobody's feelings are wrong, but there is a difference between feeling something (I feel ignored) and perceiving it (He is ignoring me). OG, if you could grasp that difference --- between the feeling you feel and the reality it represents --- and grasp how vast it might be in many circumstances, you would be halfway there, I think. That would be a huge leap. The day to day actions are good to work on, but to overhaul the thought processes, you're going to have to recognize where your current perceptions fall short and how to hone them for the future.

 

The fact is, we are what we do, and we do what we think----and a constant dissonance between thought/action won't work. Nobody has that much constant self-check/self-control. You do what you think. You react to what you think. And I mean thoughts/values/beliefs at a deeper level. That's why you have to change those, generally, to be successful when unsuccessful, and the reason people stay in "ruts" (constantly lacking success) is because it is painful and difficult to change core thoughts, values, and beliefs, and most people refuse, either consciously or unconsciously.

 

I've seen and felt transformation take place, by changing beliefs, in myself and others. Changing beliefs takes actions/consciousness/thought, but good actions/consciousness/thought comes out of good beliefs. So, it's a bit like exercise. At first, it's all conscious and very difficult and there's tons of resistance, but once you get in the groove, it's a lot less work, and you're sort of self-tailored to your daily routine. At first, it feels really, really, really crappy sometimes. That's the part most people can't get through. As always, YMMV.

[Kamille]

I hope you are not thinking that I have touted "normalcy." I myself hardly have a grasp on the concept.

 

 

While I was responding specifically to Givenup's comment, my observation was of a more general nature and not directed at anyone in particular. If we believe therapy would be helpful, I thought it would be important to point out that most therapists are trained to approach individuals with as little judgements (about normalcy) as possible.

 

To be clear: I obviously believe in therapy. Therapy has changed my life and has given me great tools to deal with my own fears and anxieties. I have encouraged OG to continue her quest fo a good therapist. I was lucky; I found mine after *only* three attempts.

[lenny]

This is not normal for our dynamic.

 

You don't understand guys... we have been extremely close for the past month.

 

I think it is a normal dynamic for any relationship to start slowing things down.

 

For the first month with my guy he texted me constantly and would never not respond to a text from me instantly. We spent as much time together as humanly possible. The first thing he did when he was finished work is to text me to make plans. After that first bit of obsession wears off a bit though, you start letting your life return to a normal level.

 

I really wouldn't worry about it. This sounds to me like normal evolution of a relationship. If he avoids you for a week, then I'd be concerned.

[Kamille]

This thinking/action thing is very chicken/egg. FTR, I think what many people think OG gets wrong are her perceptions, not her "feelings." I don't think people are actually attacking her feelings; just questioning the conclusions she is drawing.

 

Of course, nobody's feelings are wrong, but there is a difference between feeling something (I feel ignored) and perceiving it (He is ignoring me). OG, if you could grasp that difference --- between the feeling you feel and the reality it represents --- and grasp how vast it might be in many circumstances, you would be halfway there, I think. That would be a huge leap. The day to day actions are good to work on, but to overhaul the thought processes, you're going to have to recognize where your current perceptions fall short and how to hone them for the future.

 

The fact is, we are what we do, and we do what we think----and a constant dissonance between thought/action won't work. Nobody has that much constant self-check/self-control. You do what you think. You react to what you think. And I mean thoughts/values/beliefs at a deeper level. That's why you have to change those, generally, to be successful when unsuccessful, and the reason people stay in "ruts" (constantly lacking success) is because it is painful and difficult to change core thoughts, values, and beliefs, and most people refuse, either consciously or unconsciously.

 

I've seen and felt transformation take place, by changing beliefs, in myself and others. Changing beliefs takes actions/consciousness/thought, but good actions/consciousness/thought comes out of good beliefs. So, it's a bit like exercise. At first, it's all conscious and very difficult and there's tons of resistance, but once you get in the groove, it's a lot less work, and you're sort of self-tailored to your daily routine. At first, it feels really, really, really crappy sometimes. That's the part most people can't get through. As always, YMMV.

 

Great post. I totally agree with this.

 

The part about changing thought processes being like exercise is precisely why I want to recognize when I see OG embarks on the right path.

[Star Gazer]

My CBT therapist would reply that changing the response to the thought process is the first step in changing the thought process itself. It's empowering the person to step back from the thought process, thus helping them to learn to 1) identify when they lapse into dysfunctional thought processes and 2) therefore give them the power to challenge that initial thought process.

 

We learn our thought processes through socialization and real life experience. Change the life experience and you create a space to change the thought processes.

 

I don't believe behavioral therapy will work for OG. That's not how my therapist handled me. She focused on how my thoughts came to be and how to change them. When I said I was feeling a certain way and wanted to act a certain way, she zeroed in on why I was feeling the way I was, and how and why I should see it differently. We never even had to focus on my actions because thoughts control actions, not the other way around.

 

But neither you or I are therapists. We can only offer what worked for us. But I'll submit this:

 

Consider an obese person. They can exercise and diet (actions), but if they don't deal with the root cause of why they overeat to begin with, they'll always gain that weight back. Every single time. But if they deal with the emotions that cause them to overeat, they will naturally stop overeating as much. Not only that, but they - like OG - will feel good about themselves.

[Star Gazer]

The fact is, we are what we do, and we do what we think----and a constant dissonance between thought/action won't work. Nobody has that much constant self-check/self-control. You do what you think. You react to what you think. And I mean thoughts/values/beliefs at a deeper level. That's why you have to change those, generally, to be successful when unsuccessful, and the reason people stay in "ruts" (constantly lacking success) is because it is painful and difficult to change core thoughts, values, and beliefs, and most people refuse, either consciously or unconsciously.

I've seen and felt transformation take place, by changing beliefs, in myself and others. Changing beliefs takes actions/consciousness/thought, but good actions/consciousness/thought comes out of good beliefs. So, it's a bit like exercise. At first, it's all conscious and very difficult and there's tons of resistance, but once you get in the groove, it's a lot less work, and you're sort of self-tailored to your daily routine. At first, it feels really, really, really crappy sometimes. That's the part most people can't get through. As always, YMMV.

 

Yes, yes, yes! This is why thought-based change is so important here!

[Star Gazer]

Because it's funny to think about I am imagining some of the comments I have read to OG being directed at patients in therapy: "Girl, you're pathologically selfish!" "Who do you think you are? You think you're so special!"

 

They wouldn't last a day in that profession, and all their patients would storm out of their offices in tears.

 

How is this helpful, NS? This isn't happening in this thread. Her BFF the therapist told her those things last night. It's not happening in this thread.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Because it's funny to think about I am imagining some of the comments I have read to OG being directed at patients in therapy: "Girl, you're pathologically selfish!" "Who do you think you are? You think you're so special!"

 

They wouldn't last a day in that profession, and all their patients would storm out of their offices in tears.

 

And none of us are claiming, pretending or even wanting to be therapists. We are just human beings responding in our own ways to another one.

 

Believe me, sometimes a well timed remark, and sometimes a very harsh one (like those you cited), by a friend or even a fairly neutral party has been the crucial turning point for many of us.

 

We are not meant to be interacting with only "trained professionals" who have refined skills, but if someone wants that they should be in therapy and not on LoveShack.

[GivenUp0083]

I think the "right therapist" can help OG. I just think her biggest problem is her refusal to seek help. She'd rather torture herself at this point, but I'm sure she'll reach a breaking point and try to do something eventually, she just may not be there yet.

 

Therapy didn't help me on an emotional level directly, it just helped me throw everything of how I felt and what thoughts were leading me to feel this way on the table, discuss it and how I can look at it differently, and it helped me change my way of thinking. It helped me find a different perspective on dating and to ask myself different questions when dealing with it. Instead of putting so much pressure on myself I had to realize it may not be me or anything I can control as to why they disappear on me. It taught me to think about what it speaks to about those people who would do that and what kind of people they are and if that's who I'd want to be with anyway. It also helped me to learn to stop hiding things about myself. I learned that if I was a little more open earlier in the dating process I could feel more confident if it didn't work out because then I would know that the other person got a fair idea of who I really am and if they didn't like it then I can feel better knowing that then rather thinking I didn't get a fair chance for them to get to know me.

 

After 3 sessions I almost instantly was able to remove my anxiety about dating and it helped prepare me from sabotaging my own chances through over-analyzing with a great girl that is now my girlfriend and I could not have been happier.

 

OC probably won't do this as she doesn't see anything wrong with herself, she's too busy blaming others for her ridiculous expectations, her self-fulfilling prophecies, and her unreasonable need for constant attention and assurance.

Edited February 3, 2011 by GivenUp0083

[pandagirl]

I think the "right therapist" can help OG. I just think her biggest problem is her refusal to seek help. She'd rather torture herself at this point, but I'm sure she'll reach a breaking point and try to do something eventually, she just may not be there yet.

 

Therapy didn't help me on an emotional level directly, it just helped me throw everything of how I felt and what thoughts were leading me to feel this way and helped me change my way of thinking. It helped me find a different perspective on dating and to ask myself different questions when dealing with it.

After 3 sessions I almost instantly was able to remove my anxiety about dating and it helped prepare me from sabotaging my own chances through over-analyzing with a great girl that is now my girlfriend and I could not have been happier.

 

OC probably won't do this as she doesn't see anything wrong with herself, she's too busy blaming others for her ridiculous expectations, her self-fulfilling prophecies, and her unreasonable need for constant attention and assurance.

 

Exactly, therapy hasn't changed who I am, but it helps you deal with your feelings and patterns in a healthier way.

 

I think I was so resistant to "changing" for so long, that I didn't go therapy. When I realized it wasn't really about that, I was able to let go and reap the benefits.

[A O]

People's reactions on here, especially the comments about seeking a therapist, conjoined with discourses of "normalcy" are inconsistent.

Is OG’s behavior normal to you? Is the type of dating, now relationship life that she’s leading normal to you and what you would wish for, for her and anyone close to you? If you answer mostly yes, then carry on doing what you’re doing. If you answer mostly no then its time that you and many others here took a different course of action.

 

Exactly how do you think a therapist would tackle OG's case? By 1) invalidating her emotions and actions saying they're not normal

Therapists aren’t in the business of invalidating feelings or speaking in terms of what is normal or not. But more to the point, the therapy she’s been getting from here, over a long period of time now, hasn’t helped OG pursue and maintain a happy, functional dating/relationship. In other words, many posters here need to have a good hard look at their own actions as much as OG does.

 

I think the "right therapist" can help OG. I just think her biggest problem is her refusal to seek help. She'd rather torture herself at this point, but I'm sure she'll reach a breaking point and try to do something eventually, she just may not be there yet.

She has received therapy in the past I do believe. As for breaking points.

 

A breaking point is what most people in this situation need to hit before they seek change. Its a very, very important stage of this process. However, she will never reach this stage while she has people here to unload on. She releases the pressure, the frustration that builds on here, thus allowing/enabling her to continue doing the same things over and over again. "Time" has borne this out. Hate to say it, but her biggest problem, her biggest barrier to seeking the help she really needs, is some of the posters here!

 

 

.

[zengirl]

Because it's funny to think about I am imagining some of the comments I have read to OG being directed at patients in therapy: "Girl, you're pathologically selfish!" "Who do you think you are? You think you're so special!"

 

They wouldn't last a day in that profession, and all their patients would storm out of their offices in tears.

 

Yeah, except that's not at all what was said in that thread, really. That's how you perceived it.

 

A therapist very well might speculate or use a question --- which doesn't work in these threads because the OP doesn't respond to many/most questions in her threads --- such as, "Do you think you have a pattern of selfish behavior here?" which is the same as talking about whether or not someone is pathologically selfish. Most of the therapists I've met were pretty straight-up with me, and the ones who weren't. . . well, I had no interest in going back to their office. To suggest a therapist would never challenge a patient is silly. Most of them do just that. Of course, they have more effective tools than a message board forum---they have privacy, they are generally physically present, they have tone, they have a patient who is sitting in the same room as them and forced to HEAR them and respond in at least some way (even if the patient won't speak, you can see the physical response). It's a silly comparison.

 

I also don't think therapy is the end-all be-all. I think it's worth a shot, and could potentially help many people, including OG, but I don't think it's the only productive path available to her. I believe she has all the tools she needs to change herself, if she ever realized what she was doing. But having help is never a bad idea, really, and that's what a therapist is----a specific kind of help.

[Kamille]

Is OG’s behavior normal to you? Is the type of dating, now relationship life that she’s leading normal to you and what you would wish for, for her and anyone close to you? If you answer mostly yes, then carry on doing what you’re doing. If you answer mostly no then its time that you and many others here took a different course of action.

 

Therapists aren’t in the business of invalidating feelings or speaking in terms of what is normal or not. But more to the point, the therapy she’s been getting from here, over a long period of time now, hasn’t helped OG pursue and maintain a happy, functional dating/relationship. In other words, many posters here need to have a good hard look at their own actions as much as OG does.

 

 

 

 

.

 

LS isn't therapy. However, if the advice she has been given here hasn't been effective, it's hard to tell whether it's the tough love or the comprehensive kind which is or isn't effective. Clearly, the dominant "tough love" approach isn't working either.

 

As to your first questions, I do wish OG to be happy. I have enough respect for her not to assume I know better than her how she should live her life.

 

I stand by the support I have been giving OG. I truly believe it is more efficient than putting her whole being into question.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Kamille

[A O]

LS isn't therapy.

It is therapy to her, in that its enabling OG to carry on doing the same things over and over again.

 

However, if the advice she has been doing here hasn't been effective, it's hard to tell whether it's the tough love or the comprehensive kind which is or isn't effective. Clearly, the dominant "tough love" approach isn't working at all.

The tough love is for the "majority" here to point her in one direction and one direction only - to seek professional help. The tough love approach has yet to be applied. The other approach, the one that enables her to carry on doing what she has been doing has been the main course of action here for a long time now. Again, "time" has shown that this approach has gotten OG absolutely nowhere!

 

As to your first questions, I do wish OG to be happy. I have enough respect for her not to assume I know better than her how she should live her life.

If you truly wished her to be happy, then you'd point her in the same direction that you, yourself ended up going in. If "you" want to be happy, then continue giving her the same advice and support that has gotten "her" nowhere.

 

 

 

.

[Kamille]

If you truly wished her to be happy, then you'd point her in the same direction that you, yourself ended up going in. If "you" want to be happy, then continue giving her the same advice and support that has gotten "her" nowhere.

 

 

 

.

 

I have recommended therapy. Consistently. You can read up any of my past posts of OG's threads.

 

I sense you're taking out some frustration on me. I don't understand why.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Kamille