dating & sex etiquette

[joe777]

I am new to dating after being married for 15 years. Things are going good and I have about three to four women that I see. Things have moved fast and I have started a sexual relationship with two.

There has been no talk of relationship exclusiveness. And frankly they made the moves on me without a lot of talk or prerequisite. So I am wondering how typical this is? When dating includes sex, is there some implied exclusiveness? We all seem to have a don't ask don't tell attitude. Keep in mind I haven't dated since I was about 20 years old.

[LittleTiger]

I am new to dating after being married for 15 years. Things are going good and I have about three to four women that I see. Things have moved fast and I have started a sexual relationship with two.

There has been no talk of relationship exclusiveness. And frankly they made the moves on me without a lot of talk or prerequisite. So I am wondering how typical this is? When dating includes sex, is there some implied exclusiveness? We all seem to have a don't ask don't tell attitude. Keep in mind I haven't dated since I was about 20 years old.

 

Who is 'we' exactly? Do you mean you and the women concerned?

 

When my marriage ended after a similar length of time I also returned to dating - only for a short while fortunately. I can tell you that if I was one of those two (even four) women you are seeing and I later found out you'd been having sex with someone else I would not be happy. Personally, I wouldn't have sex with someone unless I believed we were in a relationship (ie exclusive) and I wouldn't date someone who was regularly having sex with another woman........but then I believe in open, honest communication right from the start so I didn't get into a situation like this.

 

I just don't understand this modern practise of multi-dating and not telling anyone you're seeing other people 'because it's none of their business' until your relationship is official. If you're all just looking for casual sex I suppose that's an entirely different thing but, in my experience, most women aren't dating someone regularly for casual sex. If you're only in it for sex yourself, then it would be more gentlemanly to let the women know.

 

If I were you I'd open up some conversations with all these women before you find yourself in four 'exclusive' relationships you're not even aware of!

[fishtaco]

Yes, welcome to multi dating. Don't ask don't tell is the rule. Whoever wants exclusivity first should bring up the conversation, and that's the only time you can ask the other person to stop all their romantic interactions with other people.

 

It's very simple. This rule assumes we are all adults and we all know what we want, and we don't need hand holding.

 

If something is important to you, i.e. sex, and you have certain requirements that must be met before sex happens, then it is YOUR responsibility to make sure all the requirements have been satisfied.

 

This is because everyone have a different set of requirements. No one should need to be the babysitter.

 

These two women that had sex with you, for their sake, I hope they're okay with just having fun. And a lot of people do just want to have fun. If they're like LittleTiger, which is 100% valid perspective, then they should have made sure exclusivity is there first before sex. And that would be THEIR responsibility.

 

Just like say if you buy her an expensive present. Then two weeks later, she says "see ya", and bails. Well then for your sake I hope you're loaded and didn't care about the money. Because if you did care, then you should have made sure the relationship is strong enough for you to justify spending this money. It is YOUR responsibility.

 

We are all adults. No babysitting.

[LittleTiger]

Yes, welcome to multi dating.

 

It is YOUR responsibility.

 

We are all adults. No babysitting.

 

Of course we are all adults and for that very reason we should be communicating as such. In my mind, that means both parties should be clear about their intentions from the start so there are no misunderstandings further down the line.

 

To say it's the other persons responsibility if they haven't checked the 'contract' beforehand is just a cop-out.

 

Whatever rules you choose to follow when you're dating, honesty on both sides should be a given........and I don't mean you have to tell every detail of your life up to that point. I mean that certain things - such as whether you're looking for a FWB or a long term relationship, should be shared. Non-disclosure is just as dishonest as an outright lie.

 

Lets say a guy is married and meets a woman online, or picks up a woman in a bar and starts dating her. In the absence of obvious red flags, most women are going to assume that the guy is single. So, if she doesn't ask outright at the beginning, 'are you married', and then gets involved in a sexual relationship with him, is it then her responsibility if she (or his wife) finds out 3 months later and gets hurt?

 

Somehow I think not.

 

I've often wondered why there is so much angst and misunderstanding in the dating world these days, at least in the LS dating world, and this 'multi-dating' thing partly explains why. You're all trying to second guess one another and you make assumptions about the person you're dating.

 

"He/she hasn't asked me to be exclusive so, unless I'm asked the dreaded question (I assume it's dreaded as you all talk so much about it), I can bury my head in the sand, have sex with as many people as I want and if anyone gets hurt it's their responsibility not mine."

 

For heavens sake 'man up' all of you (including the women). Start acting like adults and stop playing stupid games. People have feelings. How about treating one another with a little more respect and being open and honest for a change.

[TryingToMoveOn]

I'm with fishtaco on this one. If someone wants clarification, they need to ask for it. Making assumptions is the way communication breaks down. It's just how dating is in today's times.

 

LittleTiger, I see where you're coming from, and I probably hold the same values as you do. Based on my own personal values, I don't agree with the actions of the OP. But people have different value systems. The onus is on his partners to make sure they know what they're getting themselves into.

[fishtaco]

LittleTiger, my perspective is the way it is for self protection. It's not a cop out.

 

Assume no one can be trusted until they have earned your trust (which I think is reasonable). This don't ask don't tell methodology is the best because you are moving forward assuming the worst in the other person. And whatever "investment" you make in that person will be measured and controlled, so if the other person DOES turn out to be untrustworthy, you go, ah ha! Good thing I was prepared. Just like take you for example, since the other person has not earned your trust, you don't have sex with him, i.e. you did not over invest or do anything you'll regret later.

 

So, if I have the responsibility to protect myself this way, it's not out of line to expect the other people to do the same.

 

Yes, "man up", even the women. Take self protection into your own hands and stop relying on the "honesty" and "good will" of the other person. Because out in the real world, that's a rare find.

[LittleTiger]

It's just how dating is in today's times.

 

Well I find that rather sad. It shouldn't be like that and it doesn't have to be........and it only takes one person to start changing the 'rules'.

 

Joe777 has come on here to ask for clarification on the current 'etiquette' and he gets a reply from fishtaco that his behaviour is perfectly acceptable in today's dating world. That's how values get changed in society - they spread.......and it doesn't matter if the values are better or worse.

 

To Joe - I suspect you're not entirely comfortable with your own behaviour and that's why you're here asking for advice. You want someone to 'back you up' and tell you that you're doing nothing wrong. Listen to your own instincts and if you have doubts they are there for a reason.

 

I have nothing against people making their own rules based on their own value judgements. We have only ourselves (or God, if you believe in him) to answer to. What I object to is this ridiculous set of 'rules' that are presented to new daters.

 

If you're half decent person, forget what the rest of the world is doing. Trust your instincts and do what you believe is right.

[LittleTiger]

LittleTiger, my perspective is the way it is for self protection. It's not a cop out.

 

Assume no one can be trusted until they have earned your trust (which I think is reasonable). This don't ask don't tell methodology is the best because you are moving forward assuming the worst in the other person. And whatever "investment" you make in that person will be measured and controlled, so if the other person DOES turn out to be untrustworthy, you go, ah ha! Good thing I was prepared. Just like take you for example, since the other person has not earned your trust, you don't have sex with him, i.e. you did not over invest or do anything you'll regret later.

 

So, if I have the responsibility to protect myself this way, it's not out of line to expect the other people to do the same.

 

Yes, "man up", even the women. Take self protection into your own hands and stop relying on the "honesty" and "good will" of the other person. Because out in the real world, that's a rare find.

 

I do understand where you're coming from fishtaco and I'm not suggesting that anybody act naively or that you don't need to protect yourself from the obvious dangers of dating. Of course trust has to be earned but if you expect everyone to mistreat you, that's a little messed up in my opinion.

 

How sad to assume that the rest of the world is untrustworthy and that everybody is sleeping around until you make an agreement not to. Wouldn't it be better just to have a conversation up front and at least get some idea about what each of you is looking for instead of wasting time playing these games?

 

We could do a pole on this but I'd like to bet that the vast majority of women in the dating world are not looking for casual sex - and the vast majority of men are well aware of this. Many men are even happy to use these women for casual sex until they find 'the one'. Keeping your mouth shut is actually just a way of not having to admit what you're doing until 'the quesiton' is asked and you're forced to make a decision.

 

Personally, I couldn't live in a world like yours and if none of you trust each other, based on the way you seem to go about daing, it's really no big surprise.

[fishtaco]

Recently I dated three women. One of them turned out to be multi dating, and dropped me to be exclusive with some other guy suddenly, and of course did not tell me, and even pretended for a week that our planned dates were still a go. The other one changed her mind out of the blue and started flaking out on me. I had to hunt her down in order to give her the "let's be friends" speech, since she wouldn't initiate that conversation, even though that was her intention. I observed good etiquette even when others don't. The third one I'm still seeing, and I've voluntarily became exclusive with her without having the talk. I like her enough I'm willing to make the gamble at this point.

 

1/3. I got lucky. These are common dating behavior. We'll see if I spoke too soon and the result is 0/3.

 

I can't fault the other two women either. It is what it is. But good thing I follow my own rules, so I didn't over invest. So I had the "Ah ha! good thing I was prepared" moment twice.

 

This is my world. And I didn't construct it. I'm simply a survivor in this world. I've learned to keep my head above water. If you blame me for anything, you are giving me too much credit. I doubt I single-handedly shaped the dating culture of Southern California.

 

If sex did happen, women would feel disappointed if things don't work out. As would men. As would if sex didn't happen. If the only way you can make emotional attachment is through sex and nothing else, I would find that strange. If you could find attachment through non sexual activities, then what's the difference? You'll be attached anyway, with every moment you spend together. Hence sex is a non-issue. Over investment is.

 

So, since I'm not a jerk, which you may find hard to believe, the low drama women from my past that I have slept with but not gotten into a relationship with, actually have the attitude where they realize we shared some special moments together, and for better or for worse, now we move on. Luckily in my world, women enjoy sex too. And yes, some of them are my platonic friends still to this day.

 

Yes it would be better if everyone is upfront about everything AND don't change their minds. You tell me if that's a world that is possible. But also do you realize my world is just your world shifted back a few steps? You expect everyone to be saints right up front. I don't. All that trust stuff comes later. I'm fast approaching your world with this third girl. We have had talks already where we came clean about a number of things (but not the exclusive talk yet). Why do you think I voluntarily became exclusive? Because that's what she implied that she wanted. She didn't ask for it, because she knows my history. I don't lie. All the women had to do is ask me. I don't think that's too much to ask, but you seem to think so. Somehow I'm responsible for the well being of every woman I have ever approached.

 

If Joe did not lie when the women asked him questions, then he has done nothing wrong. Just because you don't date for fun doesn't mean other women don't date for fun.

 

If you don't like it, too bad. Let me ask you this. Where's the dating police? Who's going to arrest the bad people and put them in dating jail? I have always been on my own. I watch out for myself. I learned by getting my face punched in until I figured out to duck. So should everyone. Not taking the responsibility of self protection and shifting that task to the other person is the cop out.

[PerpetualMotion]

Here where I live, it's actually the opposite, you have the talk when you want to date other people, otherwise, people assume it's exclusive. At least that's my experience.

 

But to be honest, dating in USA looks so confusing to me. So many rules... having sex or not on third date, who pays what, ...

[LittleTiger]

fishtaco, I think you're taking my comments a little more personally than I intended them. I just used your post as an example of how dating etiquette becomes the norm. I don't think for one minute you are personally responsible for it.

 

Your 'dating world' IS self constructed though because it's how you behave in a dating situation that determines to some extent how others behave. No man is an island and we all influence one another.

 

People behave the way they do now when dating because it is deemed acceptable. I, personally, don't find it acceptable and, in my mind, it's dishonest. I don't expect people to be saints either, just to have a little respect for each other and be more open about they want.

 

Everyone is free to have sex with whoever they choose, I make no judgement on that. I've seen people say how complicated multi-dating is, but it doesn't have to be if you were all up-front with each other from the start.

 

I have dated 'for fun' in the past. In my teens and my twenties when I wasn't looking for a relationship - but I made that clear from day one. When I started dating again in my 40s, I was just as honest - I was looking for a relationship - and I found one - without all the angst that other people seem to go through. Maybe I was just very lucky - or maybe I was good at weeding out people who I felt weren't being as honest as I was.

[january2011]

Here where I live, it's actually the opposite, you have the talk when you want to date other people, otherwise, people assume it's exclusive. At least that's my experience.

 

But to be honest, dating in USA looks so confusing to me. So many rules... having sex or not on third date, who pays what, ...

 

Ditto. In my younger days, there was an assumption of exclusivity right from the word "go." Multi-dating would be considered cheating and usually lead to immediate dismissal.

 

However, I've noticed that with the influx of younger international people with American values* and increasing visibility of online dating sites, it seems that multi-dating and friends-with-benefits arrangements are the new norm.

 

With regard to the OP, I pretty much agree with LittleTiger's viewpoint so far.

 

*Disclaimer: most likely a sweeping generalisation/based on anecdata

[TryingToMoveOn]

Interesting how times have changed and how geography plays a role. I myself am in the liberal San Francisco Bay Area, and multi-dating seems to be rather popular here. But I think the extent of multi-dating also depends on age and cultural background as well.

[LittleTiger]

Interesting how times have changed and how geography plays a role. I myself am in the liberal San Francisco Bay Area, and multi-dating seems to be rather popular here. But I think the extent of multi-dating also depends on age and cultural background as well.

 

Yes, I'm sure that's true. I'm in the UK myself and I don't think multi-dating is common here. I actually have nothing against multi-dating as such, provided both parties admit to each other that's what they're doing. What I have a problem with is that people are doing it without being upfront and that's what leads to all this confusion.

 

Precisely because of the many different attitudes to dating these days, and across the world and different cultures, it should never be assumed that you know what the other person's expectations are. If somebody in support of 'unspoken' multi-dating would care to enlighten me as to why this is considered a good idea I'm more than happy to try and understand. At the moment it just makes no sense to me.

[TryingToMoveOn]

LittleTiger, I'll give it a shot but it's going to end up similar to fishtaco's story.

 

People who are actively dating in my area are most likely multidating. They want to keep their options open. And they don't know if the other person is seeing someone else. Your date might seem interested in you but then decide to pursue an exclusive relationship with someone else.

 

So people continue multidating until one of them realizes they want to have a more serious, more exclusive relationship with one person. And they have the official and/or exclusive talk.

 

Now what happens if you want to be clear up front about multidating? Say you've been out on a couple of dates and you seem to get along well. Maybe the other person isn't multidating. Then you run the risk of offending the other party and having them end the relationship. What if you are upfront that you aren't multidating? Then you put pressure on the other party to not date anyone else, but the other party might not be ready for that yet. I see no benefit (to myself) to have that sort of discussion until I'm ready to discuss it.

 

Also, one additional benefit of multidating is that you don't get so heartbroken when one of the people you're dating decides not to continue the relationship.

 

LittleTiger, I can see your point about complications that arise from mismatched expectations. Certainly there are ethical and moral values that can arise. For example, I don't think it's moral to be sleeping with multiple partners in a multi-dating relationship without disclosing it to all parties. But that is a value judgement on my end, and other people will have different opinions about this. I protect myself from such scenarios by having a talk about becoming exclusive at the appropriate time.

[Cee]

I feel the OP's pain. The world has changed so much. In my early days of dating, it was assumed that people were exclusive if they were sexual. It would never occur to me to ask if somebody was seeing other people. And nobody asked me either- we were in a monogamous relationship. There were one night stands & people cheated, but that was a different matter.

 

My guess is the OP is doing online dating. The convention there seems to be multidating, which may mean sex with multiple people. I've had fishtaco's experience where a guy drops me to go exclusive with someone else. That was a shock because I didn't know he was and hot and heavy with someone else. Then I learned that with online dating, you have to assume they are having sex with other people. I bring up the exclusivity discussion if I like a guy and to be honest, it's usually not a good talk. One time a guy insisted he was exclusive yet maintained an active profile on Match. And he was super jealous and would grill me about whether I was seeing other people. This guy was such a liar.

 

I read somewhere that people who do online dating are a high risk group for STDs/STIs. It doesn't surprise me at all. Anybody who is having sex with people they met online, should get tested, before and after. All of us who are sexual should be tested, but online dating could be riskier. Remember your condoms folks. I don't mean to scare anybody, but I've encountered guys online who hated condoms and didn't want to wear them. That was a screaming red flag and a deal breaker.

 

I have quit online dating and am back to the meet people in the world approach. I have noticed these guys are not doing multidating. In fact, the last two guys I've dated hadn't dated anyone in a long time. And I feel more comfortable with that.

[jenifer1972]

Multidating used to mean just that, but now it means multiscrewing. Glad I am out of that ball game.

[Nexus One]

Reading this thread reminds me not to get into this internet-dating, multi-dating and whatever-dating thing. Don't ask, don't tell? Really? That's just a skewed form of interaction, it's messed up by definition from the start.

[depplover_1980]

I am more interested in multiple orgasms.

 

Where do these people find the energy to date many people? I find one person in my life enough to focus on!!

[carhill]

'I only date one person at a time and prefer that in people I date. How do you feel about that?'

 

Listen. Accept.

 

IMO, the person one randomly meets at Borders and asks out on a date could be single, dating someone else, in a relationship, or married. Online is no different than real life. I've done enough of both over the last 30+ to know that.

 

The only dynamic in which I've had females 'make a move' on me has been when they're married. Otherwise, it's dating as normal. So, I guess my experiences vary from that of the OP. Communication, like at the top of my post, is key. Good luck

[oaks]

So I am wondering how typical this is?

 

I'm multi-dating but not (as someone put it) multi-screwing. I'm looking for a relationship with just one woman, and I'm not looking for casual sex. Jumping in to bed with lots of women doesn't serve my needs so I don't do it.

 

Since I'm meeting these women via online dating sites I assume that I'm not the only man trying to get their attention and that this means they could be multi-dating too. Sometimes this is discussed and sometimes it isn't.

 

I'm in the UK, but I'm not sure what is typical here.

[oaks]

I am more interested in multiple orgasms.

 

I see what you did there.

 

Where do these people find the energy to date many people? I find one person in my life enough to focus on!!

 

Yes, good point. I had a very busy week in January where I had several first and second dates and it was tiring. I had an unusually high number of positive responses to my initial approaches on an online dating site, but I'm not continually dating multiple people - in fact I think I'm down to 1 after only a few weeks so now I can focus my energy just on her.

[Jannah]

Also, one additional benefit of multidating is that you don't get so heartbroken when one of the people you're dating decides not to continue the relationship.

 

Yes but there is always a possibility, that two people who are in a relationship together, one or both could at some point decide not to continue the relationship. Would that same benefit then apply to those who are in a relationship together as a means not to end up heartbroken?

 

Point being, you take a chance when it comes to love, and risk getting your heart broken. I guess the impression I get, when I hear stories of multi-daters, sometimes it seems to be used as more of a tool to avoid, prevent and/or cushion, versus bringing two people closer. I guess it's a safer route though in that regard.

[fishtaco]

fishtaco, I think you're taking my comments a little more personally than I intended them. I just used your post as an example of how dating etiquette becomes the norm. I don't think for one minute you are personally responsible for it.

 

If you used me specifically as an example, I think it'd be difficult for me to not take it personally.

 

Your 'dating world' IS self constructed though because it's how you behave in a dating situation that determines to some extent how others behave. No man is an island and we all influence one another.

 

You are right that no man is an island. But we are also a society, much like a flock of birds. You want to be different and not run with the pack? You face the consequences. Society rewards conformists. This is a truth that applies even outside of dating. I'm here to do what it takes to find a genuine woman that I can be in a long term relationship with. I'm not here to reform the culture. I'll leave that to great men and women. I'm just an average nobody.

 

People behave the way they do now when dating because it is deemed acceptable. I, personally, don't find it acceptable and, in my mind, it's dishonest. I don't expect people to be saints either, just to have a little respect for each other and be more open about they want.

 

And the rules I listed allows that. It leaves the responsibility in your hands. Find out for yourself, and don't date anyone you don't find acceptable. Even then here in Southern California, that's actually not quite enough. Because even though I don't lie when asked, many other people do. And in the end, the only excuse anyone has to give is "I changed my mind". How do you know if the person was genuine about it from the beginning? It cannot be proven.

 

That's why the multi dating/don't ask don't tell period is about as casual as you can get. Very few people can put on a convincing act for long periods of time. This is when you find out who they are, not through words, but through action. Like I mentioned repeatedly, this is actually for self protection. My very limited three-women sample size clearly demonstrated that my approach was the right one to use. It protected me twice, but now that I've voluntarily moved forward with the third one because I am getting serious, I've put myself at risk. But if you want to win big, you have to gamble big. I may come back to LS a few weeks with disappointing news. You never know.

 

It's great that in the UK people are honest. No one play games. I envy you. Although I admit I can't envision a society where no one behaves poorly. But I'm not in the UK, nor do I want to move there. There are other life considerations more important than seeking out the utopia of dating environments.

[joe777]

wow, i am loving how much of a response my post received. i have not had the time to read all the post in great detail but will. (probably late tonight in between girls!...i'm kidding!)

 

i wanted to clear up a couple of things before the post goes in a random directions. I used the term dating for lack of a better term. the truth is these relationships are not "dates", by typical definition. after my marriage ending i said to myself i am not going to date for a while. what is a while, well i don't really know, but i have made efforts to expand my relationships. that includes male & female friends, business friends, & family. (in no particular order) so i have done that and along the way some of the female friends have become more intimate, just the nature of the beast. these are not women i met in the coffee shop or online. (i've never done online dating) these are women i've know for years.

 

i think if anything, i am a good friend. i listen, i offer ideas, i talk and these few women enjoy it. i do as well. we bond on more then a physical level. now my dad didn't raise a fool, i like women and i love the physical part. but i respect them their thoughts, ideas, feelings, insecurities & confidence. that's where my questions from OP came to mind. i dont want to disrespect them in any way...so therefore i asked a few questions on how others view my situation. i appreciate all the comments, both sides tigers & fishtacos.

 

i've also learned that these are intelligent, mature, responsible women i am friends with. i realize that their interest in me may be a completely different ball game. one told me today that she liked our conversations and she liked the physical part, and she is cool with just that for a while. and i respect that.

 

i want to reply to some others specific comment, but #3 is due here in about 30 mins- should probably take a shower, just in case - ok, i'm kidding again!