Author luvflower Posted February 1, 2011 Author Posted February 1, 2011 I couldn't agree more. I think down to earth grounded people will look at both sides instead of want want want. So true. Part of the essentials for any commitment should be 2 people who are honest. I consider myself down to earth and "pretty much" grounded;), definitely. I take pride in that... I think that's the main reason I'm choosing to leave my S2BX. Being real w/myself I know it's not fair for me to constantly expect something from a man that he may not innately be equipped with. Although, leaving him is a bit painful for me just as it may be for him, I've learned to deal with the pain in the present to make the future brighter.
Author luvflower Posted February 1, 2011 Author Posted February 1, 2011 I agree that this thread has gone off-topic somewhat, I'm partly to blame. Sorry for that, mea culpa. Yes you ARE partially to blame, lol. Don't apologize though...you spoke from your heart and experience I guess. Besides, it's all related in some way. It's hard to talk about a proposal without talking about marriage and the motivation for some, to get married or not to get married.
muse08 Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 This has happened probably more often than not in relationships. Personally, it happened to me and much of your relationship sounds sooo much like my own past relationship. I think it's a bit unhealthy having the type of arguments you guys have been having. When it gets to the point where you want to put your hands on the other person and you actually do it, it may be time to step back temporarily or permanently. A proposal will not, will not fix anything. Could be a smokescreen for some, but my no means is a proposal going to make me do back flips when the relationship has real issues like him being controlling in an unhealthy way, spiteful, playing games once he realizes you may not want everything he wants. Luvflower, how often have you found yourself arguing this intensely with your SO?
Eeyore79 Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 It's easy talking for you as a woman that you don't want a man that "fears" legal commitment, it's tough talk. Men generally have other things they'll lose after a divorce, we get stripped bare emotionally(children) and financially. If you separate from the mother of your children, she's going to get custody. That happens whether you're married or not; it has nothing to do with marriage. I'd like to know how men get stripped bare financially after a divorce, because I don't feel that my partner would be stripped bare if we married and subsequently divorced. We earn equal salaries, I own my home and he does not, and I'm the one with more savings (he tends to spend more than he should). In a divorce I assume he'd try to claim a share of my assets, since I have more of them, and I'd expect him to sign a pre-nup so my assets would be protected as much as possible. One poster mentioned that if the relationship is not going any where she gets bored. What happens when they do marry and the end goal has been achieved? Will she still get bored and ask if this is it or will she appreciate the contentment that a healthy marriage is supposed to bring? Sadly in too cases a woman does the former. The relationship "not going anywhere" means "not heading towards marriage". I want commitment in the form of marriage, so if a relationship isn't heading towards that I'm wasting my time. After marriage there's nowhere else for the relationship to go, so there'd be no expectation of moving forward, and I'd be happy being married. This for me reinforced that marriage is actually more important than the relationship for you... Marriage is part of a relationship - if this vital part of the relationship is missing then I won't be happy. You're looking at marriage as separate from a relationship, when in fact it's the ultimate culmination of a relationship. Marriage isn't more important than the relationship,but it's a key part of the relationship which I feel cannot be lacking. A relationship that doesn't end in marriage is like sex that doesn't end in an orgasm - it's nice enough but ultimately it leaves you unsatisfied, and no matter how nice it is you will eventually get fed up with boning but not cumming.
sweetjasmine Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 I also said I'd never do so without being married. I'd never buy property with someone who couldn't commit to being with me forever, unless I was doing it as a business partner, for business purposes. Then, we'd have to have some legal documents of incorporation. So, in either case, I want the legal documents, saying "We're one unit, in this together." Same here, and the same goes for joint bank accounts. If my SO and I aren't ready for marriage, then we're not ready for joint bank accounts or buying property together. those divorce numbers You mean the ones people cling onto dearly and yet insist on misunderstanding? Do you know how that infamous 60% is calculated? By comparing the number of marriages in a given year to the number of divorces. That doesn't tell you how likely it is for one couple to divorce after 5, 10, 15, 20 years. It tells you how many divorces there have been in a year compared to the number of marriages. You're comparing one set of people to another set. The other thing is that the odds/likelihood of divorce vary greatly by demographic. As non-religious almost-upper-middle class college educated people over 25 from the Northeast who have never been married before and who have no psychological disorders or history of trauma or abusive relationships, my SO and I have much, much better odds than a pair of 17 year old high school drop outs who have already had 2 children and are in a severely dysfunctional relationship. Why on earth would I look at a national statistic and assume it applies to everyone equally? Different demographics have different experiences and outcomes. I think the proposal bait trick implies a really warped set of beliefs about women. A guy who employs this must think women everywhere are so desperate for marriage that no matter how incompatible, no matter what issues are behind the woman's reasoning for wanting to end the relationship, the words "will you marry me" will stun her into compliance. Yup. It's a manipulation tactic based on the assumption that women want the ring and fantasy princess day, and it doesn't matter who the other person is.
Nexus One Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Do you know how that infamous 60% is calculated? By comparing the number of marriages in a given year to the number of divorces. That doesn't tell you how likely it is for one couple to divorce after 5, 10, 15, 20 years. It tells you how many divorces there have been in a year compared to the number of marriages. You're comparing one set of people to another set. If the trend stays the same for several decades, then that number/percentage still signifies the actual divorce rate within a population. And even if it fluctuated heavily, then an average could still be mathematically calculated. That doesn't tell you how likely it is for one couple to divorce after 5, 10, 15, 20 years. It does if the trend stays stable for several decades. However the trend has been that the divorce rate has been climbing over the past decades. The other thing is that the odds/likelihood of divorce vary greatly by demographic. I agree with you on that.
depplover_1980 Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 If you're going to use such an obscure analogy of marriage as this: A relationship that doesn't end in marriage is like sex that doesn't end in an orgasm - it's nice enough but ultimately it leaves you unsatisfied, and no matter how nice it is you will eventually get fed up with boning but not cumming. A relationship that doesn't end in marriage is like sex that doesn't end in an orgasm - it's nice enough but ultimately it leaves you unsatisfied, and no matter how nice it is you will eventually get fed up with boning but not cumming. "A relationship that doesn't end in marriage is like sex that doesn't end in an orgasm - it's nice enough but ultimately it leaves you unsatisfied, and no matter how nice it is you will eventually get fed up with boning but not cumming. " I will then tell you that I would see marriage as anal sex - something nice but non essential. I think it's sad that the majority of women can't seem to enjoy their relationships without keeping an eye on marriage, some obsessively so. If effectively the chase ends once you're married I do not see what the rush is all about. Crazy to me. Anyway good luck to luvflower.
depplover_1980 Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 How bizarre all those links have been included in my post!!
Eeyore79 Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 If you're going to use such an obscure analogy of marriage as this: I will then tell you that I would see marriage as anal sex - something nice but non essential. We both see marriage from very different perspectives. I see marriage as an essential component of a relationship, and I feel that a relationship which doesn't end in marriage is incomplete and lacks commitment. Depplover sees marriage as something nice but non-essential, and feels that marriage isn't necessary for commitment. Neither of these viewpoints is right or wrong, they're just different and incompatible. Two people need to have the same viewpoint in this regard, or else they won't be happy in a relationship. I have no doubt that some of my ex-boyfriends shared Depplover's perspective; he didn't feel he needed to marry me in order to be committed to a relationship, while I felt that our relationship had no future because he wasn't willing to marry me. We had different values and wanted different things, and the simplest solution to this sort of problem is to date someone who shares your values. I don't criticize anyone who has different values to me; it's up to them if they're happy to be committed but unmarried, or if they choose to have children out of wedlock. There are numerous things that I simply would never do, which other people do on a regular basis, and I don't criticize them, I just say it's not for me and I let them get on with doing it. But I don't think it's fair when those people then turn around and criticize me for wanting marriage, and suggest that marriage itself is more important to me than the person I'm with, or that dumping someone who won't marry me means I'm likely to dump a husband later on, or that I'm unreasonable or wrong for insisting that I want a relationship to result in marriage within a few years. I want myself and the man I love to make a permanent commitment in the form of marriage, and I have every right to want that, and to reject men who don't want the same thing.
Woggle Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 I don't know what the exact divorce statistics are but they are clearly very high. Marriage these days is a very unstable institution and it is like walking a tightrope for a man especially. He truly never knows when he will come home and get that I love you but I am not in love with you speech and that is a scary thought for a man. Men like home to be a place of peace and contentment and marriages these days are the complete opposite of that.
depplover_1980 Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 We both see marriage from very different perspectives. I see marriage as an essential component of a relationship, and I feel that a relationship which doesn't end in marriage is incomplete and lacks commitment. Depplover sees marriage as something nice but non-essential, and feels that marriage isn't necessary for commitment. Neither of these viewpoints is right or wrong, they're just different and incompatible. Two people need to have the same viewpoint in this regard, or else they won't be happy in a relationship. I have no doubt that some of my ex-boyfriends shared Depplover's perspective; he didn't feel he needed to marry me in order to be committed to a relationship, while I felt that our relationship had no future because he wasn't willing to marry me. We had different values and wanted different things, and the simplest solution to this sort of problem is to date someone who shares your values. I don't criticize anyone who has different values to me; it's up to them if they're happy to be committed but unmarried, or if they choose to have children out of wedlock. There are numerous things that I simply would never do, which other people do on a regular basis, and I don't criticize them, I just say it's not for me and I let them get on with doing it. But I don't think it's fair when those people then turn around and criticize me for wanting marriage, and suggest that marriage itself is more important to me than the person I'm with, or that dumping someone who won't marry me means I'm likely to dump a husband later on, or that I'm unreasonable or wrong for insisting that I want a relationship to result in marriage within a few years. I want myself and the man I love to make a permanent commitment in the form of marriage, and I have every right to want that, and to reject men who don't want the same thing. Don't take anything I say to heart. I enjoy this forum and the topics but find people take things too seriously, the other UK one I post on can get very heated and I don't bat an eyelid to even personal attacks. Infact I get trolled sometimes called me fat, can't hold down a man and all sorts. But back on the topic from what I have read you would toss away a man you genuinely loved up to that point because he wouldn't marry you. I just find that to be ruthless. I am presuming however you bring up the topic very early on with these guys nowadays? Do you not run risk of scaring them off? Also if you do bring it up early how come you have ended up tossing them aside when you suddenly found out they didn't want to marry - had they lied to you early on?
Woggle Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Please don't take this personally but women with that mentality towards married strike me as people who will want to be single again once they get the whole wedding thing out of their system. They had their princess wedding dress day and don't feel the need for it anymore. I believe that the wedding is just the start.
Author luvflower Posted February 1, 2011 Author Posted February 1, 2011 Please don't take this personally but women with that mentality towards married strike me as people who will want to be single again once they get the whole wedding thing out of their system. They had their princess wedding dress day and don't feel the need for it anymore. I believe that the wedding is just the start. wow...you really have a warped perspective of women by the sounds of your posts. Did something traumatic happen in one/many/most of your relationships? In terms of communicating to guys about what you want, that's good. However, I wonder sometimes if it's best to sit back and allow his desires of marriage to manifest on their own by way of observation, rather than asserting your desires on him early on. If you observe, and he never seems to bring up deeper levels of commitment,e.g. marriage, you can just start to emotionally separate yourself from the relationship. We (women;or a man for that matter), can't force people to feel a certain way. Some of us women feel that we can suggest and hint around to the point where "he'll come around"... Oh that's right! That's when he'll come through w/ the last ditch effort to reel us back in......................................................................
Woggle Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 I certainly have my past baggage but from what I observed this is how many marriages play out. I really don't understand how women can wonder why so many men are afraid to tie the knot.
carhill Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 I'm pro-marriage and pro-prenup and, unlike Wogs, I've never had an ex-spouse shoot at me with real bullets, only verbal ones. A woman won't have to worry about out the door proposals, rather her own perspective about being with a man who does proactively want an intimate and loving relationship. I find this weeds out a lot of women. It's really good information
Author luvflower Posted February 1, 2011 Author Posted February 1, 2011 A woman won't have to worry about out the door proposals, rather her own perspective about being with a man who does proactively want an intimate and loving relationship. I find this weeds out a lot of women. It's really good information Do you mean that a woman won't have to worry about out the door proposals w/ you carhill or men in general or...? It's true that some of us women need to be READY when meeting a man who "proactively" wants intimacy and all. But you didn't say who proactively wants marriage...interesting...
Nexus One Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 unlike Wogs, I've never had an ex-spouse shoot at me with real bullets Holy sh*t Wogs/Woggle. Really?
carhill Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) 'I liked being married and want to be married again someday. How do you feel about that?' Proactive desire for a *monogamous*, *intimate* and *loving* relationship. Every man is different. Up to women if they'd rather chase the guys they have to tie down. That part of my life (understanding 'why') is over Edited February 1, 2011 by carhill add qualifier
Author luvflower Posted February 1, 2011 Author Posted February 1, 2011 Holy sh*t Wogs/Woggle. Really? Lol...I 2nd that "wow"
Author luvflower Posted February 1, 2011 Author Posted February 1, 2011 'I liked being married and want to be married again someday. How do you feel about that?' Proactive desire for a *monogamous*, *intimate* and *loving* relationship. Every man is different. Up to women if they'd rather chase the guys they have to tie down. That part of my life (understanding 'why') is over I don't really feel any kind of way about that carhill. Sounds nice though and I'm glad you're keeping hope alive. Personally, I'm not up for chasing/forcing/convincing/shooting* (that one's for you woggle:laugh:) any man to marry me. If I turned down a proposal or 2, I think I can hold out for a guy who I feel more confident about and who I feel is more suited for me and my desires with regards to family and love.
Woggle Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Holy sh*t Wogs/Woggle. Really? When she found out I was getting remarried she drove by my house and shot out a couple windows. I can't believe my wife actually stuck around after that. Right now she is waiting to be sentenced for armed robbery.
zengirl Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 I will then tell you that I would see marriage as anal sex - something nice but non essential. Interesting thought. Never had anal, and it's not my cuppa. Sounds too messy and painful for me, not nice at all. And that's what this -- marriage -- ultimately comes down to, just like sex: Preferences. If I'm going to have sex, or a relationship, it's going to be one that meets all my requirements and makes me happy. Otherwise, I'd do without. Please don't take this personally but women with that mentality towards married strike me as people who will want to be single again once they get the whole wedding thing out of their system. They had their princess wedding dress day and don't feel the need for it anymore. I believe that the wedding is just the start. Well, I don't even want a wedding (or an enagement ring!---I do want us to both wear bands) and I'm very pro-marriage. I would only have a wedding --- and even then a very small one --- if a man absolutely INSISTED and couldn't do without one, which I cannot honestly imagine happening. I just want a courthouse wedding and a lifelong commitment from a man I love and want to be my partner day in, day out.
Woggle Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 This is a good mentality to have. The actual commitment should matter much more than the wedding. I like a good celebration as much as anybody but it should not be the main focus.
heartshaped Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 I would only have a wedding --- and even then a very small one --- if a man absolutely INSISTED and couldn't do without one, which I cannot honestly imagine happening. I just want a courthouse wedding and a lifelong commitment from a man I love and want to be my partner day in, day out. My SO and I have been seriously discussing getting married for a while and what type of wedding we'd have etc so forth. I always thought I wanted this nice, big, princessy wedding. Then, I grew up I suppose and my ideals changed to something more realistic, but then, I met my SO and decided I'd be fine with it being just me and him because the commitment is what truly matters. When I suggested this he said, "Oh no, I want our families there." So much for that idea.
Woggle Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 You can have your families there without paying a fortune. The only blood relative I had at my wedding to my current wife was my uncle so that was no issue.
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