sally4sara Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I read it and it made sense. Then I read some of the responses. THAT'S where I get confused. OP didn't seem to want this guy to propose in the first place. I didn't get the sense that she was hassling him to get married to her at any point in what she conveyed. She may want marriage someday to some guy, but it didn't sound like this was the guy in her mind at all. It sounded much more to me that she was moving on, he proposed, she said no and moved to another city only to get hornley enough to turn weak and let him move in with her. That was the only thing she seemed wrong in doing. Yet now its all about a proposal she pined for that he only gave after she lost hope? She gave a link to a previous thread about how she feels about this guy. That and this thread are all about her not thinking this is the right guy for her so why does everyone seem to think she was hanging on a line, painfully awaiting some long over due proposal?
depplover_1980 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 What tripe! A man can be very committed to the relationship and be in love with you without believing in marriage. If he buys a house with you etc and engages in some sort of future talks and treats you great then he is fully into the relationship. I would agree that if a man flinches at any talk of future, or is allergic to the idea of children to perhaps move on over time, but in the above situation you would be silly to have your attitude. If the above man pushed himself to marry you to keep you happy he is not half hearted, he is fully dedicated to a future and to keep you satisfied. This is where in my opinion your attitude would be unrealistic.
Eeyore79 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 It sounded much more to me that she was moving on, he proposed, she said no and moved to another city only to get hornley enough to turn weak and let him move in with her. Guys often don't want to commit to a relationship until the woman decides "enough is enough" and walks away. Then suddenly they propose - not because they want marriage, but because they want the woman to stay, and marriage is a lesser evil than breaking up. She walks out, so he plays the proposal card in an effort to reel her back in; he would actually be much happier if she'd come back without an engagement, but if that isn't an option then he'll choose marriage over breaking up. In my mind, that sort of proposal isn't good enough - I want a man to want to commit to me, not see it as a last resort which he'll only agree to when there's no other option but breaking up. The OP didn't ask for a marriage proposal, but the act of leaving her boyfriend caused him to play the last-resort-marriage-proposal card. If he wanted to marry her so much, he'd have proposed while they were together in a happy relationship; he wouldn't have waited until she left him and then used the proposal to attempt to reel her back in. Men who do this don't really want to get married; they're just making a last-ditch effort to suck their girlfriend back into the relationship. So I stand by what I said before: a man should want to marry you, a proposal shouldn't be the result of you leaving and him offering marriage as a last-resort alternative to breaking up. What tripe! A man can be very committed to the relationship and be in love with you without believing in marriage. I realize that a man can be committed to a relationship without wanting to get married, but such a man's values wouldn't match well with my own. If other women are happy with that, it's their decision and I wish them well, but it's not for me. If a man doesn't believe in marriage then I don't want him; not believing in marriage is a deal breaker for me.
Eeyore79 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 It sounded much more to me that she was moving on, he proposed, she said no and moved to another city only to get hornley enough to turn weak and let him move in with her. Guys often don't want to commit to a relationship until the woman decides "enough is enough" and walks away. Then suddenly they propose - not because they want marriage, but because they want the woman to stay, and marriage is a lesser evil than breaking up. She walks out, so he plays the proposal card in an effort to reel her back in; he would actually be much happier if she'd come back without an engagement, but if that isn't an option then he'll choose marriage over breaking up. In my mind, that sort of proposal isn't good enough - I want a man to want to commit to me, not see it as a last resort which he'll only agree to when there's no other option but breaking up. The OP didn't ask for a marriage proposal, but the act of leaving her boyfriend caused him to play the last-resort-marriage-proposal card. If he wanted to marry her so much, he'd have proposed while they were together in a happy relationship; he wouldn't have waited until she left him and then used the proposal to attempt to reel her back in. Men who do this don't really want to get married; they're just making a last-ditch effort to suck their girlfriend back into the relationship. So I stand by what I said before: a man should want to marry you, a proposal shouldn't be the result of you leaving and him offering marriage as a last-resort alternative to breaking up. What tripe! A man can be very committed to the relationship and be in love with you without believing in marriage. I realize that a man can be committed to a relationship without wanting to get married, but such a man's values wouldn't match well with my own. If other women are happy with that, it's their decision and I wish them well, but it's not for me. If a man doesn't believe in marriage then I don't want him; not believing in marriage is a deal breaker for me. I don't want to have children out of wedlock, so if he doesn't want marriage then he's effectively saying we're not going to have kids, and I can't accept that.
depplover_1980 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Fair enough if you are religious and marriage is important. Otherwise I think this is a self esteem/security issue and also a failure to accept others attitude towards marriage. I think women could let a great man go because of these 'rules' she sets herself. Are you married Eeyore?
chloe56 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 @ depp-lover, does that mean that a great man can not compromise after realising that marriage is important to his SO? so much so that he is willing to let her go?
Eeyore79 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Fair enough if you are religious and marriage is important. Otherwise I think this is a self esteem/security issue and also a failure to accept others attitude towards marriage. I think women could let a great man go because of these 'rules' she sets herself. Are you married Eeyore? No I'm not married, and neither am I religious. However I am kind of old fashioned, and I don't think it's really respectable to have children out of wedlock. My parents and grandparents would flip out if I had an illegitimate child. I want to be in a stable and legally committed relationship before I have children, and I want to have a nice home to raise them in. My boyfriend and I have discussed the issue and decided that we both want marriage and children in the long term, so if we continue to get along well we would both be interested in getting married in a few years time. If this wasn't the case I wouldn't be continuing to date him.
Woggle Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I think that for many men they love the commitment and everything but marriage is just a piece of paper. I married my wife because she wanted it and I made sure she signed a prenup that was looked over by a pitbull lawyer. In this day and age where people get divorced as easily as they used to breakup in high school does that piece of paper really mean anything?
O'Malley Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 OP didn't seem to want this guy to propose in the first place. I didn't get the sense that she was hassling him to get married to her at any point in what she conveyed. She may want marriage someday to some guy, but it didn't sound like this was the guy in her mind at all. It sounded much more to me that she was moving on, he proposed, she said no and moved to another city only to get hornley enough to turn weak and let him move in with her. That was the only thing she seemed wrong in doing. Yet now its all about a proposal she pined for that he only gave after she lost hope? She gave a link to a previous thread about how she feels about this guy. That and this thread are all about her not thinking this is the right guy for her so why does everyone seem to think she was hanging on a line, painfully awaiting some long over due proposal? I don't get all this grandstanding about *some* women being desperate for marriage either. Sure that happens, but it's not the issue here. It appears that the OP and her ex are incompatible on a number of issues, and that he has demonstrated inconsistent behavior (clinginess, then withdrawing emotionally). The proposal, in this context, was brought it up in an attempt to re-negotiate a relationship with her when she broke up with him because of his behavior. That is an unhealthy attitude towards any relationship, and the OP should move on from this completely.
westrock Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 So I stand by what I said before: a man should want to marry you, a proposal shouldn't be the result of you leaving and him offering marriage as a last-resort alternative to breaking up. People are movitated by both pleasure and pain(loss). You seem to want them to be only motivated by pleasure. Sometimes people (men and women) don't realize what they have until they are about to lose it. That is because the pain of losing what they have becomes greater than the pain that's being holding them back. Being placed in a position of being about to lose someone sometimes makes them realize what they have. That might be just what they need. It doesn't mean they love you any less or don't really want to marry you or are playing some type of proposal-card to reel you back in. Maybe that's what they need to realize what they have. It may not follow a fantasy script of everything flowing the way you envision, and they wanting you based on your own desires of how it should flow, but don't discount that he doesn't want you or love you just because his way of getting there doesn't fit your ideas of how he should get there. At the end of the day, what do you want? A guy who loves you and proposes in his own way, or a guy who does it by some fantasy script?
tami-chan Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I don't get all this grandstanding about *some* women being desperate for marriage either. Sure that happens, but it's not the issue here. It appears that the OP and her ex are incompatible on a number of issues, and that he has demonstrated inconsistent behavior (clinginess, then withdrawing emotionally). The proposal, in this context, was brought it up in an attempt to re-negotiate a relationship with her when she broke up with him because of his behavior. That is an unhealthy attitude towards any relationship, and the OP should move on from this completely. I agree. The proposal was not a "commitment" thing. It was a re-negotiation tool. I think it is consistent to his personality-clinging and then withdrawn, vice versa--- I say, dump him , OP!
zengirl Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Fair enough if you are religious and marriage is important. Otherwise I think this is a self esteem/security issue and also a failure to accept others attitude towards marriage. I think women could let a great man go because of these 'rules' she sets herself. Well, better than letting herself go because of a man. It's important to set rules that will make you happy. I've been proposed to by a man I didn't feel was the guy to marry, so it's not about "needing" to be married. It's about needing a level of commitment from a man I choose to spend my life with and wanting a certain kind of family/life. And values aren't always based on religion. Personally, I'm not religious, but I find marriage important. I'm definitely not Judeo-Christian. I think that for many men they love the commitment and everything but marriage is just a piece of paper. I married my wife because she wanted it and I made sure she signed a prenup that was looked over by a pitbull lawyer. In this day and age where people get divorced as easily as they used to breakup in high school does that piece of paper really mean anything? Well, it does to me. I'd never have children with a man I wasn't married to because we wouldn't be a family. We wouldn't be one unit. He and I would be separate in the eyes of the state, the law, and, frankly, myself. I don't need a wedding or a ring. Just the piece of paper and the promise that we're a team, forever, and recognized in the eyes of everyone as one unit. Also, altering that is more difficult than just walking away. Divorce isn't impossible, but it is more difficult than a break-up. I don't think divorce should be as easy as it is either, and I know it wouldn't be easy for me. Some people still take marriage seriously. To me, there is no real "commitment" in living together. Maybe in buying a house together or having kids, but without the commitment of marriage. . . I'd never do that. To me, marriage IS the commitment.
Eeyore79 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I'd never have children with a man I wasn't married to because we wouldn't be a family. We wouldn't be one unit. He and I would be separate in the eyes of the state, the law, and, frankly, myself. I don't think divorce should be as easy as it is either, and I know it wouldn't be easy for me. Some people still take marriage seriously. To me, there is no real "commitment" in living together. This is exactly how I feel. I wouldn't be prepared to live with someone unless we were engaged and planning to marry in the near future, and I wouldn't have a child with someone unless we were already married. I have traditional values, and if a man requires me to compromise those values then he isn't the right man for me. I also don't believe in divorce unless it's absolutely unavoidable (e.g. in cases of violence or infidelity) so it's important for a man to know that if he marries me he's in it for keeps and I won't agree to a divorce. Being placed in a position of being about to lose someone sometimes makes them realize what they have. That might be just what they need. It doesn't mean they love you any less or don't really want to marry you or are playing some type of proposal-card to reel you back in. Maybe that's what they need to realize what they have. To be honest, if the situation has got to the point where I've made the decision to leave him, it's a bit too late for him to propose. By that point I'll already have checked out of the relationship. I find that a relationship begins to deteriorate when a proposal isn't forthcoming after a couple of years; if I feel that the relationship isn't going anywhere I start to lose interest in sex, start arguing with him, start eyeing up other men - by the time I leave him the relationship is pretty much over with no chance of redemption, not even if he proposes.
depplover_1980 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 @ depp-lover, does that mean that a great man can not compromise after realising that marriage is important to his SO? so much so that he is willing to let her go? Chloe, here is a bit of one of my posts. Perhaps read them all first? "All I am saying is it's ridiculous to critise a man who suddenly proposes to make you happy, who does not share your views. Accept and be delighted he is willing to sacrifice his previous beliefs for your happiness."
depplover_1980 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Zengirl - you think there is no commitment in living together and owning properties, joint bank accounts and possessions? It is NOT more difficult to divorce than having to then sell and sort your shared equity, infact I think it is probably easier to get an official divide on things. Though in the UK there have been recent changes to Common Law Partnerships to give better protection for this, though it's still limited and much harder if you split up unmarried. Therefore I don't buy that argument for marriage. Though may I say that overall I do understand anyones choice to get married and I do clearly grasp the morals etc. I just don't think it is the ONLY way to have a successful and meaningful relationship. Eeyore - sorry to come back to you, but for someone spouting constantly about ethics I found this statement from you a little on the cheap side: "if I feel that the relationship isn't going anywhere I start to lose interest in sex, start arguing with him, start eyeing up other men" This for me reinforced that marriage is actually more important than the relationship for you...
zengirl Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Zengirl - you think there is no commitment in living together and owning properties, joint bank accounts and possessions? I did say there was some involved in owning property (by which I mean something major like real estate, not like, "Hey, we bought the couch together") jointly. Not the same as living together. I also said I'd never do so without being married. I'd never buy property with someone who couldn't commit to being with me forever, unless I was doing it as a business partner, for business purposes. Then, we'd have to have some legal documents of incorporation. So, in either case, I want the legal documents, saying "We're one unit, in this together." I suppose there's some commitment to joint bank accounts. I've never known an unmarried couple who had them who wasn't gay (and thus unable to get married here). But, again, not having them without marrying. Everyone has their own values, and I'm up front about mine. If a guy doesn't share them, he's not for me. Besides, people buy property together or incorporate funds for economic reasons, not family reasons. I want to get married so I can be a partner and a family member with someone, for more than just the economic things. For everything. I just don't think it is the ONLY way to have a successful and meaningful relationship. Nor do I. Just a value of mine. I'm defending why it is a good value for some people and has nothing to do with a "placeholder", not saying relationships are one size fits all. They aren't. To me, marriage is a level of commitment that says, "I want to grow old with you, be on your team forever, be your family, and invest 100% in this relationship----I want to hold it above all other relationships." To other people, it isn't. All I care about is that the men I date appreciate and value the same things I do. I have friends who are unmarried and live together, hell even some who have kids together. I don't judge them. To each their own. As far as living together before marriage, I have mixed thoughts on that. At this point, I wouldn't give up my own apartment until I were married or engaged. I've lived with someone before, and it was fine. No worries. I'd spend several nights a week at someone's place, even de facto living there, but I'm not paying for it, or giving up the apartment I keep and pay for myself, unless we're a family. I'm not going to be roomies with my boyfriend again. And I cannot combine finances with someone without a commitment of (at least presumed) forever. But I know many people who lived together before marriage, and it worked out well. My Mom and Stepdad did when I was a kid. I don't consider it morally wrong. I just don't think it's for me. Edited January 31, 2011 by zengirl
depplover_1980 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Hi Zengirl, I totally appreciate this is your values in the debate here, though I don't know why but it surprised me a little in a manner I couldn't exactly pinpoint. Your posts always have a very open minded feel to them which I enjoy, so when I read your posts on this topic I saw something new in you - nothing wrong with that however. I think you explain your reasons in a much more balanced way than some who comes across as purely hunting a husband. I personally am not saying i'd never get married, just that it's not the end of the world or a relationship not to - perhaps because I'm quite anarchistic in terms of not conforming and believe people care what others think far too much in society. Also we are not taking into account the reasons some guys may oppose marriage. For instance those whose parents divorced at a young age have zero belief in the institution due to the upheaval and pain they associate with divorce. Once attitudes are deeply inbedded it would take something forceful to finally make a man propose. I am just maintaining the right he has every right not too and still be in love and committed 100%.
spackle Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I dunno Why do women get pregnant when there are problems in a relationship? See what I did there? I knew a man-trap who did that. She admitted it.
Nexus One Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) I knew a man-trap who did that. She admitted it. Some girl did that to a guy I know, she lied about being on birth control. Their relationship was fine up to that point, but naturally all trust was broken after that. They're no longer a couple. Edited January 31, 2011 by Nexus One
zengirl Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Hi Zengirl, I totally appreciate this is your values in the debate here, though I don't know why but it surprised me a little in a manner I couldn't exactly pinpoint. Your posts always have a very open minded feel to them which I enjoy, so when I read your posts on this topic I saw something new in you - nothing wrong with that however. I think you explain your reasons in a much more balanced way than some who comes across as purely hunting a husband. Thanks. No, I didn't mean to imply it was the only way. Just the only way for some people, including myself. And I'm even fine if I never get married, so long as I'm not dating someone eternally. I'd rather be single forever than in a halfway/unmarried relationship for a long-time, and honestly, I might be fine with being single. I'd prefer to be married, and have a family, but only if I find a great partner who feels the same. I personally am not saying i'd never get married, just that it's not the end of the world or a relationship not to - perhaps because I'm quite anarchistic in terms of not conforming and believe people care what others think far too much in society. I don't really conform to society. I guess my desire comes from my strong beliefs in "Go big or go home." If someone cannot "go big" in a relationship (and marriage is perhaps the biggest commitment you can make, purely in relationship terms----you can have kids or share property with people in other legal arrangements), then they aren't for me. And they can go home. Also we are not taking into account the reasons some guys may oppose marriage. For instance those whose parents divorced at a young age have zero belief in the institution due to the upheaval and pain they associate with divorce. Once attitudes are deeply inbedded it would take something forceful to finally make a man propose. To me, those guys are the worst. Trust issues and other commitment issues from the past? No thanks. I worked through my own issues. I expect someone who has done the same and comes to a relationship from a healthy and secure place, not can't commit in certain ways because of fear and the past. FWIW, my parents were divorced when I was young. I belive they first separated when I was 4. I cannot remember them ever getting along. And the divorce was long and bloody. It wasn't official until I was 7 or 8. I am just maintaining the right he has every right not too and still be in love and committed 100% Someone has that right, though not out of fear IMO, which is the example you gave. (I guess, even out of fear, they have the "right" but I won't deal with people who make big life decisions out of fear personally, and I think you're in for pain if you do.) But that man just wouldn't be for me.
Lovelybird Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 What tripe! A man can be very committed to the relationship and be in love with you without believing in marriage.. This is the male excuses made up for male convenience, you cannot buy it. If they don't marry you, they want to the door open and find the ultimate one, that means not you, at least at the moment for the man.
depplover_1980 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 This is the male excuses made up for male convenience, you cannot buy it. If they don't marry you, they want to the door open and find the ultimate one, that means not you, at least at the moment for the man. Course it does, whatever you say so... Zengirl, I can't agree with everyone should have overcome their fears. Men in general are encouraged far less to talk and explore their feelings, so it is highly possible that negative attitudes could stem from childhood issues without the man even being aware of it really. I think you could already be in love with the man before finding out really deep stuff, by which I would not abandon that person I loved because they needed to work some stuff out. As I mentioned it could be tucked very firmly away beneath a strong exterior and for me if you were in a partnership, it would be about exploring that with them. You would also have a great relationship at the end of such development too. I like you have overcome many many things, some horrendous but I am aware this has taken some major effort and don't expect everyone to have done the same. But then we could be attracted to different men for different reasons...Ha I just thought this is opening up now! So anyway marriage or no marriage, all you need is love.
Nexus One Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Someone has that right, though not out of fear IMO, which is the example you gave. (I guess, even out of fear, they have the "right" but I won't deal with people who make big life decisions out of fear personally, and I think you're in for pain if you do.) But that man just wouldn't be for me. Except that these days, those "fears" as you call them are based on statistics. 2/3rds of all people that get married in Western countries end up getting divorced. Traditionally men have been the ones who ended up losing property, money and their children. It's easy talking for you as a woman that you don't want a man that "fears" legal commitment, it's tough talk. Men generally have other things they'll lose after a divorce, we get stripped bare emotionally(children) and financially. I happen to know someone who got divorced a few years ago. He lost his house, which he had paid off. His wife got him into debt, which he didn't have before the divorce, but his ex-wife maxed out all his credit cards in his name. She left him with $50000 debt. And he lost his child. If he had an incorporated company at that time, then he would have lost half the shares of the company he built with his own bare hands too. If he had savings he would have lost half of that too. Fact of the matter is that many men today feel like it's a trap. It's all fine and dandy until things go sour. I can tell a woman I want to be with her for the rest of my life and sincerely mean it. I don't need a legal document to mean it for me. If you absolutely need that document and the legal weight behind it as an ultimatum to be with me, then it's fair for me to question your motives. And you can say it's fear on my part and try to tough talk me out of it, but that's playing into my emotions rather than my rationality. Don't get me wrong, I understand where you women are coming from. You're afraid too. You're afraid you get pregnant an we'll leave you. After which you'll have to bear the full burden of raising those children. But men that pull that kind of sh*t have no character in the first place. While there are certainly men out there like that, by no means every man is like that. However it's up to you(women) to judge the man you want to be with by his character. But if you look at the number of divorces, then perhaps that judgement has been off by a large margin. Remember how many guys say women fall for the bastards, the @ssholess, the alpha males, the players. And remember how most women say that's not true? Well those divorce numbers imply you're wrong. The reason that men say this is because when we see another man, then on a subconscious level we probe their threat level in terms of aggressiveness. It's an ancient instinct that men have, because for tens of thousands of years men have been fighting other males. Women tend to not have this instinct and completely overlook those aspects or even find them attractive. That's where you go wrong. And that's why you want the weight of the legal system behind you, because you know you can't trust your guts on a man's character. And you (often) want it both ways, you want the alpha male and have him committed to you. And that sh*t right there ladies, does not fly. Edited January 31, 2011 by Nexus One
Nexus One Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) This is the male excuses made up for male convenience, you cannot buy it. If they don't marry you, they want to the door open and find the ultimate one, that means not you, at least at the moment for the man. That's a fear on your side. That's why some women want the weight of the legal system behind them, to cordon him off if he ever gets the idea to leave. Not every man is like that and you know that. Answer me this question. Would you really want to be with a man that no longer wants to be with you? Personally I would only want to be with someone who wants to be with me too. Edited January 31, 2011 by Nexus One
Lovelybird Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 That's a fear on your side. That's why some women want the weight of the legal system behind them, to cordon him off if he ever gets the idea to leave. Not every man is like that and you know that. Answer me this question. Would you really want to be with a man that no longer wants to be with you? Personally I would only want to be with someone who wants to be with me too. of course I want a man who wants me, not only that, but also he so wants to be with me, that he decides to go ALL THE WAY. Actually it is not fear, it is practical wisdom
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