Bad first time sex - is relationship doomed?

January 26, 2011

You have a hunky 6'6' dude going out with you for 7 dates then having marathon sex sessions with you, and you are worrying about your attractiveness because he took too long to cum. Sigh...IDK!!!! Would a 5'6' BF who cums in under 5mins reassure you more on your desirability. I doubt it.

I know quite a few women who also think the same as bac, that a scenario like you had is pretty damn good. One thing I noticed (or didn't) is that you never mentioned having any orgasms yourself, after all this pounding with your well endowed man. You ignored someone elses question on this. I am curious if the very thing you are complaining about was maybe also going through your guy's mind.

January 26, 2011

However, I was using the more informal definition of pathological, meaning 'compulsively motivated' and kind of disregarded the idea of diagnosing anyone, one way or the other. So far as I know, there are no licensed therapists among us.

Stripping the formality from the word kind of takes away its power. The whole reason people love to diagnose others on LS by throwing around words like "pathological," "DSM" or "personality disorder" is *because* those terms are formal. It makes them feel like they're officially branding somebody with this dirty words, which is rather silly when you think about it.

January 26, 2011

So are you actually claiming to have decided with confidence that OG's selfishness is PATHOLOGICAL from what she's written on LS? Wow.

I'm glad you're not using the formal definition, because you're right that your opinion would be worthless in that regard.

Well, actually, I'm claiming to have decided it is possible to form a distinct opinion about someone from many, many written posts, yes. Just as I can tell a lot about the character of Anne Frank from her diary, or historians can tell a lot about the characters of the previous historical figures through their own writing and letters, I can tell a lot about OG based on what she writes. If we couldn't judge the personalities of people based on what they write, what would be the point of engaging in a forum like this at all?

I don't know or, really, care if OG is pathological in her selfishness. Is it absurd and compulsive? Or is she just stunted and doesn't know any better? Can she be helped or not? I've no idea. And no real desire to discuss it further, so that's where I'll leave it. My point is that her choices henceforth will demonstrate the degree of her selfishness, as others have pointed out the many errors, and she can either correct or stay as she is. The choice is hers.

By the by: The informal definition is still in the dictionary, just to be clear. But no, as I'm not a licensed therapist, I am not diagnosing OG or anyone else. Nor do I think anyone meant to provide advice that would substitute for seeing a licensed therapist. I don't think anyone really meant it as a 'dirty' word. Or, at least, not most. I think there is certainly an understandable lack of patience for OG's behavior at this point, after a very long time. But most people are actually trying to help. YMMV.

January 26, 2011

Because of everything I wrote, I want to reiterate that I think OG is really unhappy and is really suffering. I think she's causing some problems for others as has been pointed out.

But she's doing most of the suffering. Really, word usage aside, it's what she thinks and the way she thinks. I sort of doubt she'll read this but she really could work her way to a much happier more functional situation.

No, I'm not diagnosing her, but she really reminds me of the people I've met struggling with borderline personality disorder. Is writing that bad? Is it mean of me? That's not my intent.

January 26, 2011

By the by: The informal definition is still in the dictionary, just to be clear.

Yes, and the definition includes "uncontrolled or unreasonable" and "being such to a degree that is extreme, excessive, or markedly abnormal."

January 26, 2011

I think it's worthwhile to think what Kamille and northern_sky are saying might be true. That OG was acting out of anxiety and somehow her need to please caused her to act as if it was only her pleasure that mattered. At least for a few seconds of the entire night. None of us here, even those who know her best, know the truth of what went on or what she's capable of.

But I've been involved with women who were capable of empathy and were not habitually self-centered, and don't recall them ever acting like OG described. If they did, inadvertently or out of anxiety, they wouldn't have needed it pointed out to them. And they would have been all over themselves trying to make it right.

I've also been involved with, or known, women who were basically selfish and couldn't empathize. I can think of three who were like that to varying degrees. Those women did things very similar to what OG described. They were the only ones who did so regularly, and certainly the only ones who were not completely horrified when they acted selfishly and inadvertently insulted someone. Those women were impossible to be with.

The evidence is not in her favor. At least the evidence I've seen, in this thread and others, isn't.

January 26, 2011

Continue to misuse the word and make yourself look foolish around educated people. Fine by me.

I'm curious. At what point did anyone in this thread use the term "morbid" to mean something along the lines of having thoughts oriented towards death or any other common-day usage?

January 26, 2011

I don't know or, really, care if OG is pathological in her selfishness. Is it absurd and compulsive? Or is she just stunted and doesn't know any better? Can she be helped or not? I've no idea.

If you admit that you can't say she's pathological even by the informal definition (which I agree with), then what point were you getting at in this argument? You've lost me.

In terms of historians painting a historical figure's character, particularly one whom they've never even interviewed/met, I've always been highly skeptical of that practice. Can they note patterns of behavior and tendencies? Sure. How much can they really say about somebody's character and inner motivations, though? Also, they usually have many more data points to work with. All we have is what OG is written here on her relationships. We know nothing or very little of her family background, her behavior outside of relationships, her childhood.

My mother is a clinical psychologist at the top of her field, who has published many articles, runs a unit in the top mental hospital in the country, teaches Harvard Med students, and has her own private practice. She is adored and respected by her students, colleagues and patients. She understands people better than anyone I've ever met. Her understanding goes beyond training; it is a gift. She would laugh at some of the pronouncements you and others in this thread have made. She's said to me many times that it's impossible for her to make meaningful judgments (beyond mere speculation) on someone without doing a clinical interview, including questions about familial history. She's also said that she understood after 35 years of practice that you never really know somebody. Even patients she's had for years surprise her. There's a saying that goes something like the more you know, the less you realize you know, and I believe it.

On a forum like this we can note patterns of unhealthy behavior and try to steer people in the right direction. We can also *speculate* on the motivations behind their behavior in an effort to help them become more self aware. But can we really make a meaningful judgment on somebody's character (beyond behavior) to the point of calling it pathological? Unless we're talking about somebody who has admitted to something criminal or totally off the wall, I seriously doubt it.

Edited January 26, 2011 by northern_sky

January 26, 2011

She wasn't thinking of him or his needs AT ALL. She was only thinking of herself and what it meant for her. She was selfish.

Agreed, although I think "self absorbed" might be a better way to describe it.

I do agree with some of what K and NS are trying to say though- OG is SO self absorbed due to her many anxieties that she is incapable of seeing this situation rationally and from the guys perspective.

That said, its far from healthy, and I don't think she is in the right headspace to have a happy R right now, and I think this one is doomed if this is whats going on.

Her self absorption, desperation and insecurities are going to end up driving this guy away, thus validating her ingrained belief that she isn't worthy of love.

I'm with NS on this. I think OG lets her anxieties get the best of her and this leads her to act in selfish ways. We can all agree that the way she communicated her desire for a break was rude. OG has had similar responses in the past, where her inability to assert herself appropriately caused her to resent the men in her life. We think there are deeper issues-insecurities that are causing her to act in selfish ways.

I'm not arguing what she did was caring. You say she was selfish, I say anxieties made her act selfish. We both know OG struggles with a deep set insecurity about her capacity to find love. I think NS hit it on the head when she says that in order to impress him (and keep him crazy about her so that she keeps feeling worthy of love), OG overlooked her own needs. This, in turn, leads her to feel frustrated and angry when she fails to get the validation she perceives herself as needing.

The OP is self-sabotaging, looking for ways to sabotage this relationship and anyone who potentially may get close to her. This will be the first of many attempts to sabotage this, and any future relationship, not unlike her many attempts to sabotage the long drawn out dating process she experienced beforehand. This is standard dysfunctional behavior that any shrink will recognize.

The best way we can all help this poster is to implore her to seek professional help. Whatever professional help she undertook in the past she either failed to heed or was of substandard quality. But she needs help, not only for her benefit but also for the many men who will fall prey to her dysfunction, and may in turn be adversely affected by it (and as if the world doesn't have enough bitter men already!)

And for those of you who think I'm barking up the wrong tree....please make a mental note of how she's behaving now and whether she's improved any, whether her relationship is running more smoothly, if at all, in six months from now. If not, then its time to get off the support/enabling bandwagon and on to the seek help bandwagon for the sake of many, not just her.

.

I absolutely agree with this. OG seems determined to continue jumping into the deep end of the dating pool without learning how to swim in the shallows.

OG, I hope you will answer my questions I posed in my earlier post. I would also like you to spend some time envisioning this scenario:

You know how you gave him head for 20 minutes (trying to give him pleasure, I'd hope) without the results you wanted? How about if you saw him looking at his watch during that time? What about looking around the room? And then, when you gave up, if he said, "I hope it's better next time."

I think you would be DEVASTATED..

I think so too. The poor guy would be lynched. I think you are getting off reasonably lightly here, despite the obvious double standard.

I think it is going to be extremely difficult for a guy to break through her defences and get her to trust him. What will be even more difficult is getting her to give a guy the benefit of the doubt. He can do plenty of things right, but wrong move might destroy every progress they made as a couple.

Frankly, not many guys are even capable of successfully handling such a situation in the first place. And of those who are, many might not even want to try.

And OG, if you are reading this, I am not saying that you don't deserve a good guy. It's okay to have certain expectations, we all do. And it's okay to not blindly trust a guy. But even if a guy treats you right, you'll always encounter some bumps in the road. Eventually, you have to work with the guy and have some faith in him and yourself. You really can't expect him to always do everything right.

Again- great post. You HAVE to learn to take the rough with the smooth.

You can't expect everything to be fairy tale perfect all the time.

OG I really think you struggle with this.

What a sh*tfight.
Feel sorry for the poor bloke.

Me too.

The evidence is not in her favor. At least the evidence I've seen, in this thread and others, isn't.

No, its not.

I guess I am just waiting for the next instalment..

January 26, 2011

NS, what your mom WOULD say is that OG's behavior was selfish. What your mom WOULD say is that OG's behavior was unreasonable and markedly abnormal. Agreed? You've made these judgments yourself.

January 26, 2011

NS

We've established that the word "pathological" was inappropriate.

Your diatribe doesn't carry any further weight by listing your mothers qualifications. They are hers, not yours.

The saying about the shoemakers children keeps popping into my head.

January 26, 2011

Agreed, although I think "self absorbed" might be a better way to describe it.

Yes, that's the distinction I was looking for! OG is abnormally self-absorbed but I don't think she's abnormally selfish.

Her behavior in relationships is at times selfish, but I've seen her display acts of real empathy toward others. I think her main problem is self absorption. She lives in her own head.

January 26, 2011

What are we playing here, "who knows OceanGirl best?" or "which poster's opinion matters the most?"

Even if some of us were qualified and practicing therapists, would anyone else believe them? Do their posts carry more weight? Do we need to see certificates?

The nature of this site is that we are basically giving each other opinions, based on our own experiences. In my opinion, on a question such as OceanGirl's, there are no right or wrong answers. There is just one person's opinion versus another person's opinion. So why are we arguing the toss in this respect?

January 26, 2011

NS, what your mom WOULD say is that OG's behavior was selfish. What your mom WOULD say is that OG's behavior was unreasonable and markedly abnormal. Agreed? You've made these judgments yourself.

Yes, she'd say her behavior was selfish and abnormal, but that's different from implying her whole being is selfish.

January 26, 2011

Good point again January. Esp seeing as OG is nowhere to be seen.

Until next time!

January 26, 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by johan
The evidence is not in her favor. At least the evidence I've seen, in this thread and others, isn't.

sb129:
No, its not.

I guess I am just waiting for the next instalment..

Morbid Curiosity

January 26, 2011

What are we playing here, "who knows OceanGirl best?" or "which poster's opinion matters the most?"

Even if some of us were qualified and practicing therapists, would anyone else believe them? Do their posts carry more weight? Do we need to see certificates?

The nature of this site is that we are basically giving each other opinions, based on our own experiences. In my opinion, on a question such as OceanGirl's, there are no right or wrong answers. There is just one person's opinion versus another person's opinion. So why are we arguing the toss in this respect?

We cross the line when we start to attack someone's character. It's more productive and fair to focus on their patterns of behavior.

Also, it doesn't alienate the poster. If we really want to help someone, I think that's the best way to go about it.

January 26, 2011

Morbid Curiosity

Yup. 100%.

She never takes any of my advice, so thats about what my participation in her threads boils down to in the end.

January 26, 2011

NS

We've established that the word "pathological" was inappropriate.

Your diatribe doesn't carry any further weight by listing your mothers qualifications. They are hers, not yours.

The saying about the shoemakers children keeps popping into my head.

I'm not claiming them as my own. I'm sharing a bit of wisdom that she's passed down to me. I listed her qualifications because I wanted people reading it to know how well-earned that wisdom is. Take it or leave it.

Edited January 26, 2011 by northern_sky

January 26, 2011

Yes, that's the distinction I was looking for! OG is abnormally self-absorbed but I don't think she's abnormally selfish.

Her behavior in relationships is at times selfish, but I've seen her display acts of real empathy toward others. I think her main problem is self absorption. She lives in her own head.

They are not different.

Self-absorbed: Pre-occupied with self, excessively concerned about one's own interests. (Synonyms: self-centered, narcissistic, egocentric, egotistic, SELFISH.)

Selfish: Looking after one's own interests, needs and wishes while ignoring those of others. (Synonyms: narcissistic, SELFISH, egotistic, self-involved.)

January 26, 2011

Not to fling poo or anything, but NS some of that wisdom may be worth remembering yourself.

I mean that in a nice way.

Your mum does make sense, but you don't always need a harvard education to be wise.

January 26, 2011

Selfish: Looking after one's own interests, needs and wishes while ignoring those of others. (Synonyms: narcissistic, SELF-ABSORBED, egotistic, self-involved.)

Corrected.

January 26, 2011

They are not different.

Self-absorbed: Pre-occupied with self, excessively concerned about one's own interests. (Synonyms: self-centered, narcissistic, egocentric, egotistic, SELFISH.)

Selfish: Looking after one's own interests, needs and wishes while ignoring those of others. (Synonyms: narcissistic, SELFISH, egotistic, self-involved.)

I think you're mostly right and you give terrific advice to OG here. But there really are evil narcissistic fckballs in the world.

OG is not like that I don't think. She's desperately afraid and empty inside. She's maybe hurting feelings and confusing some guys, but she's really not causing bloody mayhem. She's mostly hurting herself.

I think that's worth noting.

January 26, 2011

Your mum does make sense, but you don't always need a harvard education to be wise.

My mother will be the first to admit this is true. She knows plenty of buffoons in her field.

January 26, 2011

I thought we would get an infraction if anyone of us purposely try to " diagnose" anybody on LS.

On a sidenote, I find it somewhat ironic that all this time, OG had been looking for a " nice" guy to start an LTR with, and then when it does happen, she wants to bail after sex.

I mean, why the need to jump to a dissolution when you still have time to work things out?

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