Women who create problems from nothing...

[Jonno_S]

Okay, I apologize if that's a little offensive, but I don't date guys so I am unaware if they do this as well. (They may.) It seems that I experience a similar pattern of behavior with women I date - it's like they cherry-pick certain events/facts and draw a conclusion which is often completely the opposite of reality. I am trying to figure out if all women do this, if just the ones I seem to find or whether it's me causing it.

 

Some similarities in the 4 who have done it: Single (one was divorced) no kids, 34-35 years old.

 

I can give many examples so here's one: A neighbor wanted me to volunteer as an usher at a local playhouse. Turns out my gf wanted to see the musical, it was the last week and all remaining shows were sold out so I got my neighbor to let her usher too. Throughout the course of the day, via e-mails, she expressed how she was worried about ushering, what she had to do, would she screw up, what if someone asked a question to which she didn't know the answer, etc. etc. Probably about 5 e-mails. In each reply, I would compliment her, tell her she's smarter than most so she has nothing to worry about, it's not rocket science, she'll be fine, etc. Also, she had to come directly after work so wasn't 100% sure she could get there in time. I say fine, and that "...I'll plan on going either way." So she tells me she's not going. I say fine, but then find out later that that phrase, those 6 words, had gotten her upset and caused her to think that I didn't really care if she went and basically got herself bummed out.

 

Later, after the musical, I talked to her and found out what caused her change of heart. I pointed out how she disregarded the 5 or so OTHER e-mails where I encouraged her and relied on those 6 words to get her in a bad mood and I kind of got fed up. Frankly I don't respond well when I point out what I think is a ridiculous conclusion and that I was kind of bothered that she wasn't coming after all the negotiations and effort I made to get her in (not to mention the fact that I'm not really into musicals, I was doing it for her). But none of that mattered with her. She kind of took the position that since they were her feelings/her reaction, I needed to deal with them. I find that too sort of preposterous because that could open the door for emotional blackmail, right? It's one thing if a person actually does something wrong, but I basically did nothing wrong in my view, so to me she is being kind of capricious. Needless to say I am not very sympathetic when someone comes up with something like that and my patience gets short.

 

Another instance [skip this if you're heard enough], different girl: I like to bake, I am in pretty good shape, I've never been married (in my mid 40s) and have a decent relationship with my mother (not a momma's boy, however). So once a girl whom I'd been dating and with whom I had been very intimate, decided from those "facts" and maybe a few others, that I was homosexual. Completely disregarding the fact that I am not and never even hinted that I was (not to mention that I could have sex with her voluntarily and eagerly w/out vomiting). She just kind of decided that I was.

 

I tend to be very logical and I point out how these conclusions are completely illogical but it gets me no where. It seems almost like women try to look for reasons to throw me under the bus, & then when I get aggravated with this repeating pattern (of what I think is ridiculous behavior), it becomes a fight. And the women never, repeat, never, say, "You're right, I overreacted" or "Sorry, I was wrong." WTF??

 

Thoughts?

Edited January 24, 2011 by Jonno_S

[Movingthrough]

Well I know what your are getting at, and the fact is guys do it too (I'm a guy). I have always had a problem too because I feel a lot of women can't just be honest and let it out. I know we all do it but like you said I don't date guys so. I have read multiple tines that women end the relationship months before on their head so by the time it comes around they are good to go, so why didn't you end it then?

 

I'm not women bashing and I know that guys do it too. From what I have read and heard from girls is they try to do everything they can to avoid conflict. Most guys seem black and white to me mentally so that type of stuff doesn't always sit well with us.

[Jonno_S]

Well I know what your are getting at, and the fact is guys do it too (I'm a guy). I have always had a problem too because I feel a lot of women can't just be honest and let it out. I know we all do it but like you said I don't date guys so. I have read multiple tines that women end the relationship months before on their head so by the time it comes around they are good to go, so why didn't you end it then?

 

I'm not women bashing and I know that guys do it too. From what I have read and heard from girls is they try to do everything they can to avoid conflict. Most guys seem black and white to me mentally so that type of stuff doesn't always sit well with us.

 

When you ask why I didn't end it then, do you mean as soon as she does something like this end it? I guess I should consider that. But also, I want to get married someday so I am willing to work through stuff (real stuff) but I prefer to minimize the conflict. When I see something unsure, I try to talk to the person and listen to them before being dramatic so I can't understand the motivation for this behavior.

[zengirl]

She thought you were homosexual because you liked to bake? That sounds weird. My BF loves to bake (we often bake together), and he's definitely not homosexual. In fact, we've done some half-naked baking. You know, all that waiting time is good for something. . .

 

As to your main point, men and women both do this. You only notice because you date women, maybe. Friends rarely do this. It's only in intense relationships---typically romantic or maybe familial.

 

They take something wrong, they get all worked up about it, then when presented with "It really didn't mean that" (even with evidence), they find it hard to let go because they experienced it meaning that; to them, the fiction was real. If you imagine something, it's real to you. It happened in your brain; the neural paths are even similar. I will say perhaps women are more prone to romantic imagining (some are; some aren't) of this type, but I've had men do similar things to me. And I've done similar things. Not over something quite so petty, but over perceptions I developed----and had understandable "reasons" for developing, but it turned out untrue.

[Jonno_S]

She thought you were homosexual because you liked to bake? That sounds weird.

Agreed. I even baked her initial into the crust - trying to be special for her. It backfired.

 

As to your main point, men and women both do this. You only notice because you date women, maybe. Friends rarely do this. It's only in intense relationships---typically romantic or maybe familial.

 

They take something wrong, they get all worked up about it, then when presented with "It really didn't mean that" (even with evidence), they find it hard to let go because they experienced it meaning that; to them, the fiction was real. If you imagine something, it's real to you. It happened in your brain; the neural paths are even similar. I will say perhaps women are more prone to romantic imagining (some are; some aren't) of this type, but I've had men do similar things to me. And I've done similar things. Not over something quite so petty, but over perceptions I developed----and had understandable "reasons" for developing, but it turned out untrue.

 

So you're saying to not get aggravated, expect it and let it work out? Sounds so simple. Why do I feel like women are looking for reasons to kick me to the curb? Why can't they decide things or conclude a positive outcome rather than making it negative - you know, give the benefit of the doubt. It kind of strikes me as paranoid behavior (esp the homosexual thing.)

Edited January 24, 2011 by Jonno_S

[iJester]

She kind of took the position that since they were her feelings/her reaction, I needed to deal with them.

 

This is when you should have ended things. Talking it out and explaining yourself, and letting her talk, was the right thing to do. As you said, her position was preposterous and you should have ended it right there, this is the sign of a manipulative, control freak.

[Jonno_S]

As you said, her position was preposterous and you should have ended it right there, this is the sign of a manipulative, control freak.

 

So is this: "Throughout the course of the day, via e-mails, she expressed how she was worried about ushering, what she had to do, would she screw up, what if someone asked a question to which she didn't know the answer, etc. etc."

 

I never can figure out what/who control freaks are. I am too laid back. Funny, I have this ridiculous piece of advice for her: Can't you just reply with, "whatever,"? In my ridiculously optimistic mind I think that she'll go, "Oh, I see. I can chill out a little."

[zengirl]

So you're saying to not get aggravated, expect it and let it work out? Sounds so simple. Why do I feel like women are looking for reasons to kick me to the curb? Why can't they decide things or conclude a positive outcome rather than making it negative - you know, give the benefit of the doubt. It kind of strikes me as paranoid behavior (esp the homosexual thing.)

 

I wouldn't correlate the two events, personally. The homosexual thing sounds like a deeper issue. The usher girl sounds like more typical (if tedious) stuff. She saw a perceived slight, in a moment when she was already insecure, and flipped out about it. Annoying, but not atypical of human beings. Different people flip in different ways.

 

As far as how to deal with it, I wouldn't JUST ride it out, though not getting aggravated is a key first step. Also deal with it, in an understanding way, "Oh, man, I see that you thought that, and I get why you WOULD be upset if that were what I meant, but it's not what I meant at all. So, peace?" If she declines to see reason after a reasonable response like that, then: It's her issue.

[Jonno_S]

I wouldn't correlate the two events, personally. The homosexual thing sounds like a deeper issue.

 

100% right - I won't go into the explanation here...

 

As far as how to deal with it, I wouldn't JUST ride it out, though not getting aggravated is a key first step. Also deal with it, in an understanding way, "Oh, man, I see that you thought that, and I get why you WOULD be upset if that were what I meant, but it's not what I meant at all. So, peace?" If she declines to see reason after a reasonable response like that, then: It's her issue.

 

This is great advice. I need to do that because I don't want to fight. The other thing I need to do is learn to listen (which I'm working on) but instead I just get immediately fed up (due to it happening many, many times over many years). I kind of slap my hand on my forehead and think, "Again?? WTF?" I think partly why I get fed up is because I am kind of like Spock. Very logical and low-emotion so I stupidly think that everyone processes information like me. (Trust me, being a genius is a curse )

 

I have to say that here and in other posts, Zengirl, you've been pretty wise and insightful. Don't mean to suck up too much, but thanks. Thanks to others too. Happy for more thoughts & opinions...

[Movingthrough]

When you ask why I didn't end it then, do you mean as soon as she does something like this end it? I guess I should consider that. But also, I want to get married someday so I am willing to work through stuff (real stuff) but I prefer to minimize the conflict. When I see something unsure, I try to talk to the person and listen to them before being dramatic so I can't understand the motivation for this behavior.

 

No I meant how people will say women are some months before in their head, why they didn't end it then...not you.

[Nexus One]

I tend to be very logical and I point out how these conclusions are completely illogical but it gets me no where. It seems almost like women try to look for reasons to throw me under the bus, & then when I get aggravated with this repeating pattern (of what I think is ridiculous behavior), it becomes a fight. And the women never, repeat, never, say, "You're right, I overreacted" or "Sorry, I was wrong." WTF??

 

Thoughts?

 

I've learned that many if not most women are very emotional beings. They come to conclusions not by merely using logic and rational arguments, but also emotional arguments.

 

Men rarely use emotional arguments in discussions and do not understand how said women came to their conclusions. There's where the friction starts.

 

Many women also expect you to read between the lines of their actions and words. Perhaps this is because said women also try to read your motives between the actions and words you express, as you've probably noticed yourself.

 

Example:

 

Women: When I walk away in anger, I want the man to come after me.

Men: If she walks away in anger, then I'll let her go. It's obviously clear that she shows through her actions and behavior that she wants to leave, I'll respect her wish to leave.

 

You can see that women throw an (implied) emotional argument in there while men only look at the direct and obvious signs and act only on those. Therefor often in a discussion or argument the viewpoint and conclusion of women does not make sense to most men, because we(men) seldom throw in emotional arguments into our reasoning to come to a conclusion.

 

The result is miscommunication, because both genders are misunderstanding each other. Heartbreak is often the result. Which may or may not be unfortunate.

 

I'm not saying that all women do that, but I've noticed A LOT of them do. One simply cannot account for every emotional scenario that women tend to express, it would drive a man to madness. The only advice I can give is don't get sucked into it and keep your cool, you're not going to overthrow emotional arguments with rational ones unless she understands the complete dynamics that are at play here. Instead you need to realize those dynamics for the both of you. Yes that is unfair, but unless you want to break contact then that's one of the very few options you have.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Nexus One

[Jonno_S]

Yup yup yup.

 

Well said.

[Jonno_S]

Earlier I apologized for not being a good listener when she was telling me how something was bothering her. She replied thanking me for taking the time to be introspective and learn something. So I e-mailed this to her:

 

Yes. It partly comes down to my realization that impeccable logic and factual evaluation are not the only valid methods of situational analyses. (They're far superior, but not the only way ) I need to at least acknowledge that the female thought process exists and is legitimate and allow it proper floor time. No other way to say it; I was wrong. And what's worser [sic] is my becoming agitated and frustrated when you were simply expressing your views and concerns.

 

She said she hoped I was kidding in the first part. Woops!

Edited January 25, 2011 by Jonno_S
Verb agreement

[zengirl]

Earlier I apologized for not being a good listener when she was telling me how something was bothering her. She replied thanking me for taking the time to be introspective and learn something. So I e-mailed this to her:

 

Yes. It partly comes down to my realization that impeccable logic and factual evaluation are not the only valid methods of situational analyses. (They're far superior, but not the only way ) I need to at least acknowledge that the female thought process exists and is legitimate and allow it proper floor time. No other way to say it; I was wrong. And what's worser [sic] is my becoming agitated and frustrated when you were simply expressing your views and concerns.

 

She said she hoped I was kidding in the first part. Woops!

 

You were joking, right?

 

New lesson of the day: Tone is difficult in an email.

[Jonno_S]

Totally, of course. Didn't see the smile? If anyone were that arrogant and pompous I would personally shoot them. So how about some props for my contrition?

[Jonno_S]

Women: When I walk away in anger, I want the man to come after me.

Men: If she walks away in anger, then I'll let her go. It's obviously clear that she shows through her actions and behavior that she wants to leave, I'll respect her wish to leave.

 

All this talk reminds me of this joke:

 

Her Diary:

Sunday night I thought he was acting weird. We had made plans to meet at a

bar to have a drink. I was shopping with my friends all day long, so I thought

he was upset at the fact that I was a bit late, but he made no comment.

Conversation wasn't flowing so I suggested that we go somewhere quiet so

we could talk, he agreed but he kept quiet and absent. I asked him what was

wrong - he said, "Nothing." I asked him if it was my fault that he was upset.

He said it had nothing to do with me and not to worry. On the way home I

told him that I loved him, he simply smiled and kept driving. I can't explain his

behavior; I don't know why he didn't say, "I love you, too."

 

When we got home I felt as if I had lost him, as if he wanted nothing to do

with me anymore. He just sat there and watched T.V.; he seemed distant and

absent. Finally I decided to go to bed. About 10 minutes later he came to

bed and to my surprise he responded to my caress and we made love, but I

still felt that he was distracted and his thoughts were somewhere else.

 

I decided that I could not take it anymore, so I decided to confront him with

the situation but he had fallen asleep. I started crying and cried until I too fell

asleep. I don't know what to do. I'm almost sure that his thoughts are with

someone else.

 

My life is a disaster.

 

HIS DIARY:

Today the Bears lost the game, but at least I got laid.

[carhill]

The word 'insane' comes to mind.

 

I base that on actually caring for an insane person. And being married to a woman who called me a momma's boy for doing that.

 

I don't personally waste time on such personality types any more, no matter what genitals are attached to them. Disconnected and bye-bye.

[Seamless74]

I tend to be very logical and I point out how these conclusions are completely illogical but it gets me no where. It seems almost like women try to look for reasons to throw me under the bus, & then when I get aggravated with this repeating pattern (of what I think is ridiculous behavior), it becomes a fight. And the women never, repeat, never, say, "You're right, I overreacted" or "Sorry, I was wrong." WTF??

 

 

Thats funny... Your assuming logic has any bearing on an argument with a woman lol... its soooo not about logic.. Its about "feelings" just be sure to give them to total relationship experience.. Sometimes they just need some emotion and a big fight just to be emotional so go ahead yell at um get all dramatic the about 30 minutes later go **** the **** outta um.. Shell love you for it.. In my opinion women get really bored with everything always being on an even keel and no problems//

[daphne]

The gay baking thing is hysterical. Ok, maybe the initial thing was gay, but super sweet.

 

The email wasn't going to win you any points in person with tone or in an email without it. Don't ever tell any woman, rational or otherwise that you're more logical. Unless you like starting another argument.

 

As for the main girl in the post, she sounds immature or simply irrational but you posted mid 30's. I was like this in my early 20's. Patience is good, but at some point you have to say your piece and let her deal with her own irrational thoughts. I honestly don't understand what made her get so bent out of shape if she knew you were doing it for her.

[Jonno_S]

The word 'insane' comes to mind.

 

I base that on actually caring for an insane person. And being married to a woman who called me a momma's boy for doing that.

 

I don't personally waste time on such personality types any more, no matter what genitals are attached to them. Disconnected and bye-bye.

 

Really? Which of my two examples is insane? I'll admit the the one with the accusations of homosexuality really was insane. But is the other too, in your opinion? And more significantly, do women who don't think/act/react this way really exist (other than Zengirl)??

[daphne]

And more significantly, do women who don't think/act/react this way really exist (other than Zengirl)??

 

There are plenty. They tend to work in IT or finance though.

[D-Lish]

Women and men process things differently. I know I've been guilty in the past of wanting someone I am dating to "read between the lines" and know how I am feeling. That has never worked out...

 

Men do it too, but in a different way. My current bf and I had our first fight the other night. He brought up a few harmless things I have said over the course of the past few months that had obviously bothered him when I said them- but he didn't choose to address those comments until much later and he was upset with me for something completely non-relevant to the other issues.

 

I think men rarely say anything when they are upset (and let it build), whereas women hint they are upset and expect the guy to pick up on those hints and understand how it makes us feel. Both methods are major roadblocks to healthy communication.

 

The bottom line is that none of us are mind readers. It would be great if everyone could be clear and concise (and prompt) when communicating.

 

I think your current gf was trying to communicate that she didn't want to usher the concert- the thought of it obviously gave her a lot of anxiety, but she was too embarrassed to tell you outright that she didn't want to do it. In your mind, you were doing something nice- you went out of your way to fix a problem (and get her into the concert), and she wasn't being appreciative after you went out of your way to help her get what she said she wanted. In her head, she was thinking that she was obviously hinting that ushering wasn't something she wanted to do and you weren't picking up on it (being insensitive).

 

I know it's not easy. Communicating with the opposite sex can be as difficult as dating someone that doesn't speak the same language- because in essence, we don't!

 

My advice is to be patient, and to encourage your gf to be more upfront about what she wants. It would have been great if your gf just said "I appreciate what you've gone out of your way to do for me, but I just don't feel comfortable doing that" in the first place. For your part, the next time she wavers about something, just ask her outright what the real issue is and remind her that the last time she wasn't upfront about her feelings, things went sour.

[hydorclops]

Direct vs. indirect communication.

 

Everyone uses both, most people tend towards one style most of the time.

 

Some cultures and languages are more or less direct/indirect.

 

They are both valid and both have advantages and disadvantages.

 

When she says, "Are you hungry?" She is indirectly telling you that she is hungry.

 

You think she is being direct, so you say, "No."

 

She thinks you are being indirect, so she assumes that you don't care about her hunger.

 

The woman is not wrong. You are not wrong or right. Direct is not always better.

 

When you each think the other is using your style, you miscommunicate.

[paddington bear]

Throughout the course of the day, via e-mails, she expressed how she was worried about ushering, what she had to do, would she screw up, what if someone asked a question to which she didn't know the answer, etc. etc. Probably about 5 e-mails. In each reply, I would compliment her, tell her she's smarter than most so she has nothing to worry about, it's not rocket science, she'll be fine, etc. Also, she had to come directly after work so wasn't 100% sure she could get there in time.

 

I say fine, and that "...I'll plan on going either way."

 

So she tells me she's not going. I say fine, but then find out later that that phrase, those 6 words, had gotten her upset and caused her to think that I didn't really care if she went and basically got herself bummed out.

 

Ooooh I think I can see clearly why she got pissed off. She wanted you to really, really want her to go. When she said the hoping to get there in time after work thing, you were supposed to say "I hope you really make it. I will DIE unless you too usher at this thing, I will be on my knees praying to God in the hopes that you, my beloved will be there, otherwise the night will be an utter misery for me, without your sweet presence there".

 

Instead, with perhaps a nonchalant shrug of the shoulders you were like "meh, don't really care if I see you there or not, I'm going anyway".

 

You didn't mean it like that but, in her head this is what she took it as. But I will say that this after your previous 5 emails is a bit much IMO. She sounds a little insecure and someone who needs constant propping up - i.e. signs that you DO like her, otherwise she fears you don't (just like the joke you posted).

[johan]

So you like to bake, but you're also straight? How does that work? You mean you like to get baked? That's different. You should be more clear. Maybe that's why the girl got the impression she got.

 

I've dated at least a couple of women who would get upset about stupid stuff. Just to be upset. Women like that just don't want a relationship to be easy. They could handle it better if you'd just wring them out occasionally. Get fired up and give them hell about something. Take the drama initiative, or else you'll just be playing defense the whole time.

 

A nice guy will be on the defense the whole time, trying to calm things down, trying to show how she got the wrong impression and how he just wants her to be happy. sniff sniff. If that's how she wants to be, you're under no obligation to take her seriously. Keep her on her heels. Knock her on her ass, figuratively.