Author Questionis Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 All I end up thinking is that she views me as half a man So do you have aunts or teachers or a grandma? Do you they they view you as half a man too?
Author Questionis Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 This is why we rarely read about women lamenting they're in the friendzone. Actually I think women do. Maybe they are just better at dealing with it and describe it as it is without giving it a label? American men seem to have a label for every type of rejection c**kblock being the first one that springs to mind.
Author Questionis Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 Why does a woman have to show you respect by having sex? I'd love to hear the response to this.
Author Questionis Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 That's not a friendship, that's emergency penis. Its insincere, rude, and I've no need for emergency penis. I agree with everything you say hahahaaha. For certain, men shouldn't put up with women who treat them like that.
Author Questionis Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 freindzone along with all the other good dogs that have been fixed. It takes some experience in life and putting on your best set of balls to continue an actual friendship with a woman who you wanted to see you as a sexual being. It can't be this bad really? I knew guys found it hard but really? Like a neutered dog? Really? I wonder if this a widespread view?
counterman Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Personally, I don't find it that bad. I may have before, with the whole concept but I am usually upfront with my intentions, so that there is no misunderstanding. I wouldn't close off having a girl as a friend just because she rejected me or wasn't interested. I would say it could lead to more exciting times. However, being her friend means I can talk about other girls and other dates;)
sally4sara Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I don't know what "sexual entity" means. The transition from being someone who wants sex but is still a virgin. Then from being someone who has merely lost their virginity to someone who knows what they want out of sex and how to get it. First its "can I have sex?" After a while you become more assured of yourself and it becomes "I will have sex". It just becomes fact and the pressure is less weighty because you have proven it to yourself. I think the friendzone is a bigger deal to people who've yet to feel proven as a sexual entity. That's why you see all this "not wanting me sexually makes me feel neutered" feelings. They still need to use others to prove they are a sexual entity. At some point they will feel more accomplished and not need every woman they find attractive to help them prove it.
somedude81 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Wow, what an insightful post sally4sara. Describes me perfectly.
hydorclops Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Sally4Sara:The transition from being someone who wants sex but is still a virgin. Then from being someone who has merely lost their virginity to someone who knows what they want out of sex and how to get it. First its "can I have sex?" After a while you become more assured of yourself and it becomes "I will have sex". It just becomes fact and the pressure is less weighty because you have proven it to yourself. I think the friendzone is a bigger deal to people who've yet to feel proven as a sexual entity. That's why you see all this "not wanting me sexually makes me feel neutered" feelings. They still need to use others to prove they are a sexual entity. At some point they will feel more accomplished and not need every woman they find attractive to help them prove it. Yes this is very good. But I've managed this attitude without being secure that "I will have sex". Maybe it's because I'm so old. Maybe it's a mental attitude that anyone can have regardless of circumstance.
GoodOnPaper Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I think the friendzone is a bigger deal to people who've yet to feel proven as a sexual entity. That's why you see all this "not wanting me sexually makes me feel neutered" feelings. They still need to use others to prove they are a sexual entity. I'm sure there is at least some truth to this. So you've taken lots of jabs at those of us who have struggled to attract women -- and experienced the friendzone phenomenon in the process -- but it has me curious as to why there seems to be so much objection to the idea that such a guy who, upon recognizing that he is getting into a friendzone situation, would wish to detach himself from the situation?
iJester Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 "it has me curious as to why there seems to be so much objection to the idea that such a guy who, upon recognizing that he is getting into a friendzone situation, would wish to detach himself from the situation?" Emotional vampires and attention whores don't want to see themselves for what they really are.
hydorclops Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I'm sure there is at least some truth to this. So you've taken lots of jabs at those of us who have struggled to attract women -- and experienced the friendzone phenomenon in the process -- but it has me curious as to why there seems to be so much objection to the idea that such a guy who, upon recognizing that he is getting into a friendzone situation, would wish to detach himself from the situation? Stop using the word friendzone. Stop using the model of the friendzone. When you need to force interactions into one of only 2 boxes, you miss out. You get rejected by 2 women, both say they want to be friends. If you can only think in terms of this limited model, you must deal with them both the same way. Yet the women are unique. Maybe there would be great value for you if you were to become friends with one of them. Take things as you find them, not as some PUA has categorized them.
GoodOnPaper Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 You get rejected by 2 women, both say they want to be friends. If you can only think in terms of this limited model, you must deal with them both the same way. Yet the women are unique. Maybe there would be great value for you if you were to become friends with one of them. It would all come down to the degree of power dynamic imbalance that I perceived -- maybe that would be different with different women. The thing is, I was always so embarrassed after getting rejected, removing myself from the situation always seemed to be best.
sally4sara Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I'm sure there is at least some truth to this. So you've taken lots of jabs at those of us who have struggled to attract women -- and experienced the friendzone phenomenon in the process -- but it has me curious as to why there seems to be so much objection to the idea that such a guy who, upon recognizing that he is getting into a friendzone situation, would wish to detach himself from the situation? I don't think I've taken jabs at you. I think what you're perceiving as a jab is just a natural response to having something that resides in your own list of inadequacies in the spot light. Such as when you tell someone they're being insecure and they get all "RAR I'm NOT insecure!" as though it was an insult and not just simply being human and imperfect. We're all insecure about something or in certain situations. So if you perceive all things about the friendzone to be due to some inadequacy within you - its you taking a jab at you thru your own personal assessment. All I imagine if going on is you don't yet feel proven as a sexual entity, perhaps there are some extreme cases where it is about some angst towards women in general, but most of you are just caught up in an internal struggle. Yet you take it as a personal attack. Pointing out the disconnect between an offering of friendship and feeling a lack of respect for the offering isn't taking a jab at you. You WILL need to be able to have feelings of friendship in a relationship to have a good one. Reacting to it poorly has a double effect in that being friends with women helps you to learn better how to relate to them and having a bad reaction will only make her see you in a bad light when you're already not being seen in the light you wanted to begin with. You get the ******* tag (for only valuing them sexually) AND loose the opportunity to gain experience relating to women in a friendly way without sex. Think about it, for a woman to want to date you, she has to feel at ease around you. Ever had to deal with someone who took you completely the wrong way and reacted poorly? It makes them come off aggressive and unpredictable. There she is offering you friendship, something we usually see as a nice gesture, and you don't respond the way we expect people to respond when offered something nice. As well, while you are operating under the pressure to prove yourself as a sexual entity, you're placing a lot of pressure on the women you approach. The whole "heart on your sleeve" thing is present here too. You wear your inadequacies on your sleeve and any woman you approach is under the pressure to prove you adequate. There is no ease in that moment so she withdraws from you. You come off like too big a project. She sees you wanting to date as a huge request because she knows you're placing your worth at her feet. Its no longer a date you're asking for, its your inauguration to manhood.
Nexus One Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 What strikes me though, is how strongly these people feel about their misguided beliefs! It being misguided is a matter of opinion. And I don't see the "belief" part in it either. When you get friendzoned you don't magically fall out of love the next second. It will hurt being around that person and watch them get involved with other partners. There could very well be people that are perfectly fine with that. But some just want to move on.
Nexus One Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) The transition from being someone who wants sex but is still a virgin. Then from being someone who has merely lost their virginity to someone who knows what they want out of sex and how to get it. First its "can I have sex?" After a while you become more assured of yourself and it becomes "I will have sex". It just becomes fact and the pressure is less weighty because you have proven it to yourself. I think the friendzone is a bigger deal to people who've yet to feel proven as a sexual entity. That's why you see all this "not wanting me sexually makes me feel neutered" feelings. They still need to use others to prove they are a sexual entity. At some point they will feel more accomplished and not need every woman they find attractive to help them prove it. Throughout this thread I've watched women shift this issue to sex, rather than the difficulty of being around a person you are in love with, but who does not love you back in that way. For some people, when they leave after being friendzoned it's about closing a chapter of their life and moving on. Rather than hanging around and watch the person they're in love with fall in love with someone else. What about this do you women not get? It has nothing to do with sex. I don't see how or where the sex part even fits in. You women must be talking about other types of men. Men that merely want sex with you and get frustrated when you don't give them what they want. I'm guessing the reason you shift it towards sex is because you have experience with friendzoning such type of men. That's not the type of scenario I was talking about. Edited January 25, 2011 by Nexus One
iJester Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 What about this do you women not get? And I repeat, emotional vampires and attention whores don't want to see themselves for what they really are.
Stockalone Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 The transition from being someone who wants sex but is still a virgin. Then from being someone who has merely lost their virginity to someone who knows what they want out of sex and how to get it. First its "can I have sex?" After a while you become more assured of yourself and it becomes "I will have sex". It just becomes fact and the pressure is less weighty because you have proven it to yourself. I think the friendzone is a bigger deal to people who've yet to feel proven as a sexual entity. That's why you see all this "not wanting me sexually makes me feel neutered" feelings. They still need to use others to prove they are a sexual entity. At some point they will feel more accomplished and not need every woman they find attractive to help them prove it. I am not trying to be obtuse on purpose here, but I don't really understand that either. The concept of "sexual entity" as you describe it seems rather odd to me. I don't think that people need sex (the act itself) to keep their identity intact, or worse, to validate it. However, if you are basically talking about having tunnel vision, where only achieving your goal (whatever it is) matters, then it makes more sense to me.
sally4sara Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Throughout this thread I've watched women shift this issue to sex, rather than the difficulty of being around a person you are in love with, but who does not love you back in that way. For some people, when they leave after being friendzoned it's about closing a chapter of their life and moving on. Rather than hanging around and watch the person they're in love with fall in love with someone else. What about this do you women not get? It has nothing to do with sex. I don't see how or where the sex part even fits in. You women must be talking about other types of men. Men that merely want sex with you and get frustrated when you don't give them what they want. I'm guessing the reason you shift it towards sex is because you have experience with friendzoning such type of men. That's not the type of scenario I was talking about. And how is it you're falling in love with these women if you wanted a date and didn't fake a friendship when you were turned down? I keep asking this question and I get no definitive answer. Even the examples shared were guys approaching women they found attractive - not in love with - only to have the romantic association they wanted initially unavailable to them. The rarity being shared here is the friends first into love scenario. Maybe I'm wrong but what would seem so weird about someone you were already friends with not wanting to see you as more than a friend? It would suck and I could understand how if those feelings developed, you might need to withdraw. But this route to the friendzone is the rarity being shared compared with the attraction first route. At which point I ask again: How do you get from "ooh she's cute I'll ask her out" to "I love this woman" without any romantic reciprocity? What are you building on?
heartshaped Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 It amuses me that this discussion has gone on for twelve pages. Really, it's quite simple. Men/women who are interested in you are not interested in being just your 'friend' and at times, when you friendzone them they aren't even aware that in your mind you see them as only a friend. Personally, I don't see the purpose of keeping members of the opposite sex as friends. Not to say I automatically weed out men as friends, but I've found it usually turns messy. Either I develop feelings for them, they develop feelings for me, we cross a line of some sort, etc. I also feel that I find all the male companionship I need from my SO [when I have one] and don't feel the need to go looking for it or accepting it from other males. Just my personal feelings on the matter.
Nexus One Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) And how is it you're falling in love with these women if you wanted a date and didn't fake a friendship when you were turned down? I keep asking this question and I get no definitive answer. Even the examples shared were guys approaching women they found attractive - not in love with - only to have the romantic association they wanted initially unavailable to them. The rarity being shared here is the friends first into love scenario. Maybe I'm wrong but what would seem so weird about someone you were already friends with not wanting to see you as more than a friend? It would suck and I could understand how if those feelings developed, you might need to withdraw. But this route to the friendzone is the rarity being shared compared with the attraction first route. At which point I ask again: How do you get from "ooh she's cute I'll ask her out" to "I love this woman" without any romantic reciprocity? What are you building on? There are many scenarios where two people from the opposite gender can know each other and where one of them can fall in love with them over time. One could fall in love with someone even after knowing them for years. Scenarios: - Friends - Lovers (boyfriend-girlfriend, man-wife, sexual partners) - Colleagues - Class mates - Study mates - Room mates - Travel mates - Team mates (sports) - Acquaintances that one is around often - Etc. In those scenarios one could know each other for years without calling each other friends. (except for the first scenario) One spends enough time together over the years to get to know each other and to possibly develop feelings. So getting friendzoned after that amount of time will be difficult. I think it comes down to the fact that there are simply many scenarios in which one can get friendzoned and yes that encompasses the scenario several women in this thread mentioned too, but by no means is that the only scenario. Edited January 25, 2011 by Nexus One
carhill Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) How do you get from "ooh she's cute I'll ask her out" to "I love this woman" without any romantic reciprocity? What are you building on?Love the different perspectives in this thread. Great commentary. In my case, covered in detail in my journals, the first and most poignant experience was with someone who lied about her marital status for a couple months and, during that time, we spent many, many hours together in private and intimate (emotionally intimate) interaction. I was young, naive, and got emotionally attached to an experienced MW. A typical 'normal' man would never have done that. He would've moved to bang her immediately, got shot down (heard the 'I'm married' as the 'reason') and moved on, never getting emotionally attached. It just happened (but likely she sensed the potential) that my attraction style matched up with her emotional agenda. It would only be many years later that I would come to understand that I was just one of many men whom she had 'orbiting'. My particular purpose (which obviously I was unaware of) was to become a shield to the boss she was banging and wanted to end that dynamic with. With a different emotional and attraction style, the situation never would have happened. After that affair ended, a number of years later, I never had the same issue with the 'friendzone' again. Sure, I got rejected and friendzoned, and do to this day in fact, but the emotional impact was/is insignificant, in comparison. It was a life lesson, shared here for informational purposes. I asked a good female friend last night about this and described the behaviors exhibited over the 20+ years of this particular 'interaction' and she was pretty surprised that we hadn't been sexually intimate. My simple answer was I don't (and didn't) have sex with people who are married or in committed relationships. BTW, I liked the comment from a man (I presume) that 'emotional vampires and attention whores don't want to see themselves for what they really are'. IME, this is quite true. Such personality types, similar to narcissistic men, are completely oblivious to their own actions and words and the effects on other people. They're surprised and incredulous when called out on their behaviors. What generally follows is gaslighting and rewriting of the dynamic. In my cases, overwhelmingly, I was summarily disconnected without significant comment and replaced with another orbiter. Globally, IME, in nearly all cases where the 'friendzone' was an issue, 'romantic reciprocity' was actualized or inferred. It was/is the 'carrot dangled on the stick'. This is why now, even when women directly approach me with otherwise obvious romantic or physcial intent, I don't believe them, simply because I've been lied to for so many years by so many women. I won't bore readers with a recitation since I've covered the examples in numerous threads but, clearly, the ticket to clarity on the friendzone is to *proactively, not reactively* move to sexual intimacy at the earliest moment. Don't 'get to know' the woman. Don't 'feel her out' for romantic interest. Jump on it and, if not reciprocated, leave without prejudice or comment. A sincere and compatible woman who is *genuinely* attracted will reciprocate sexually while she is getting to know you. Many other paths are *possible* but this one is the sure thing and a clear avoidance of the friendzone. IME, the clearest ultimate path to emotional neutrality on this subject is, as I learned in MC, *acceptance*. It is what it is. Learn from it, accept it and move on. And so I will now. Thanks for all the great insight Edited January 25, 2011 by carhill
sally4sara Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 There are many scenarios where two people from the opposite gender can know each other and where one of them can fall in love with them over time. One could fall in love with someone even after knowing them for years. Scenarios: - Friends (you can't be friendzoned when you're already a friend) - Lovers (boyfriend-girlfriend, man-wife, sexual partners) (no its called a break up if you're denied what you already had) - Colleagues - Class mates - Study mates - Room mates (trying to circumvent the entire dating process and jump straight into a co-habitation with committed relationship?!) - Travel mates - Team mates (sports) (clearly not thinking about her as a team mate; mind in the game fella!) - Acquaintances that one is around often - Etc. (why is this in a list you made to provide definitive answers?) In those scenarios one could know each other for years without calling each other friends. (except for the first scenario) One spends enough time together over the years to get to know each other and to possibly develop feelings. So getting friendzoned after that amount of time will be difficult. I think it comes down to the fact that there are simply many scenarios in which one can get friendzoned and yes that encompasses the scenario several women in this thread mentioned too, but by no means is that the only scenario. The rest I can see happening. You're on a date and she is completely unaware. Sneaky sneaky.
sally4sara Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Love the different perspectives in this thread. Great commentary. In my case, covered in detail in my journals, the first and most poignant experience was with someone who lied about her marital status for a couple months and, during that time, we spent many, many hours together in private and intimate (emotionally intimate) interaction. I was young, naive, and got emotionally attached to an experienced MW. A typical 'normal' man would never have done that. He would've moved to bang her immediately, got shot down (heard the 'I'm married' as the 'reason') and moved on, never getting emotionally attached. It just happened (but likely she sensed the potential) that my attraction style matched up with her emotional agenda. It would only be many years later that I would come to understand that I was just one of many men whom she had 'orbiting'. My particular purpose (which obviously I was unaware of) was to become a shield to the boss she was banging and wanted to end that dynamic with. With a different emotional and attraction style, the situation never would have happened. After that affair ended, a number of years later, I never had the same issue with the 'friendzone' again. Sure, I got rejected and friendzoned, and do to this day in fact, but the emotional impact was/is insignificant, in comparison. It was a life lesson, shared here for informational purposes. I asked a good female friend last night about this and described the behaviors exhibited over the 20+ years of this particular 'interaction' and she was pretty surprised that we hadn't been sexually intimate. My simple answer was I don't (and didn't) have sex with people who are married or in committed relationships. BTW, I liked the comment from a man (I presume) that 'emotional vampires and attention whores don't want to see themselves for what they really are'. IME, this is quite true. Such personality types, similar to narcissistic men, are completely oblivious to their own actions and words and the effects on other people. They're surprised and incredulous when called out on their behaviors. What generally follows is gaslighting and rewriting of the dynamic. In my cases, overwhelmingly, I was summarily disconnected without significant comment and replaced with another orbiter. Globally, IME, in nearly all cases where the 'friendzone' was an issue, 'romantic reciprocity' was actualized or inferred. It was/is the 'carrot dangled on the stick'. This is why now, even when women directly approach me with otherwise obvious romantic or physcial intent, I don't believe them, simply because I've been lied to for so many years by so many women. I won't bore readers with a recitation since I've covered the examples in numerous threads but, clearly, the ticket to clarity on the friendzone is to *proactively, not reactively* move to sexual intimacy at the earliest moment. Don't 'get to know' the woman. Don't 'feel her out' for romantic interest. Jump on it and, if not reciprocated, leave without prejudice or comment. A sincere and compatible woman who is *genuinely* attracted will reciprocate sexually while she is getting to know you. Many other paths are *possible* but this one is the sure thing and a clear avoidance of the friendzone. IME, the clearest ultimate path to emotional neutrality on this subject is, as I learned in MC, *acceptance*. It is what it is. Learn from it, accept it and move on. And so I will now. Thanks for all the great insight So the friendzone is defined as a scenario where the woman is not establishing real boundaries of rejection to the guy's advances and also not behaving as a genuine friend? He neither gets a solid no or a solid yes? This I can understand. Mind games.
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