sally4sara Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 And there is the disconnect. Unless there is some other longer-standing basis for a continuing friendship, being sexually rejected wipes out any notion that a woman respects or appreciates me. All I end up thinking is that she views me as half a man -- that stings too much . . . So you have to be sexually wanted to feel respected? Do you feel your male friends want you sexually too? Why does a woman have to show you respect by having sex?
sally4sara Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 This is why we rarely read about women lamenting they're in the friendzone. They don't tolerate such a position and their sexual power gives that intolerance teeth. Bravo Its not viewed as disrespect to be a only friend so whats to tolerate? What is it we'd not tolerate? Sexual power? Its a friendship; what does it have to do with sex? Are you saying I only enjoy my male friends because (as you suggest - not as I believe) I can compel even the most sincere male friend into my bed as though he has no will of his own?
carhill Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 No, that you won't tolerate being 'friends' with someone you're attracted to sexually. BTW, I'll never expect a woman to admit to this publicly. It's a psychological thing. I have heard it directly privately from numerous women over the decades.
sally4sara Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 No, that you won't tolerate being 'friends' with someone you're attracted to sexually. BTW, I'll never expect a woman to admit to this publicly. It's a psychological thing. I have heard it directly privately from numerous women over the decades. But that's just it carhill, I don't want my male friends into me sexually either. That's not a friendship, that's emergency penis. Its insincere, rude, and I've no need for emergency penis.
sumdude Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 So you have to be sexually wanted to feel respected? Do you feel your male friends want you sexually too? Why does a woman have to show you respect by having sex? I think this is specific to the situation when a men wants a romantic/sexual relationship with a woman but was rejected sexually and put in the freindzone along with all the other good dogs that have been fixed. It takes some experience in life and putting on your best set of balls to continue an actual friendship with a woman who you wanted to see you as a sexual being.
carhill Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) The subject is the dynamic of the friendzone. Predominantly, it is men who seem to experience it. Women do not, if threads on LS are any indicator. This aligns with my experiences in real life. If a woman is attracted to a man and he rejects her, she, in my experience, with anecdotes as recent as two days ago, processes that with a number of expletives and the general attitude of 'well ef him, I can do better than that azzhole' and validates her sexual power by seeking the sexual attention of other men. BTW, this process appears to be exacerbated by emotional attachment, similar to that of how men like myself made mistakes in this area of the friendzone dynamic. The more attached, the more 'violent' the reaction. The difference between that experience and those related by many men here is that the woman reacts in a 'violent' way to the rejection, processes it by bitching to her friends (and myself) and proceeds to go out and get herself another man to validate her. Of course, this is all done on the surface in a completely socially acceptable manner and is rationalized away. 'Loser' Oops, she slipped Edited January 25, 2011 by carhill here not her
sally4sara Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I think this is specific to the situation when a men wants a romantic/sexual relationship with a woman but was rejected sexually and put in the freindzone along with all the other good dogs that have been fixed. It takes some experience in life and putting on your best set of balls to continue an actual friendship with a woman who you wanted to see you as a sexual being. While I too agree that's not a good idea if you want sincere friendships with men, I'm going to need to hear it from GoodOnPaper since he was the one I quoted. I just get the feeling that many of the fellas who complain about the friendzone fixate on the sexual aspect with every woman they meet. So much so, I suspect they wouldn't even bother talking to a woman if she wasn't attractive to them in a sexual way. I get that, even with same sex situations, appearance is what draws you to a person on some level, but I get a more extreme vibe from some of these posts. Its about sex or nothing. Not to be crass but ever notice how thin chicks run in packs, chubby girls run in packs, athletic men in packs, the douchoisie fellas in their skinny jeans and ironic tshirts? We're all about seeking out "our people". So on some lower level your friends of either gender were attractive looking to you or you wouldn't have noticed them in the first place.
Stockalone Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Yeah, I agree that if you only found an interest in someone based on romantic attraction that was not reciprocated, the friendship will be faked on some level. I think you are taking my post too literally. I could have said "remain" friends instead of "be" friends with a woman. If you are friends before you develop feelings, the situation is even more complicated. The friendship doesn't always have to be fake. As well, in my own experiences, I don't try to make a friend out of a guy who expressed romantic interest in me. So to later, after you've grown to care for them as a friend, it hurts a lot to learn they stuck around with ulterior motives. If it is as bad as these fellas make it out to be to be "friendzoned" by a woman they have romantic feelings for, why bother? All thats going to come of it is you feeling frustrated until you let her know her friendship was never appreciated. Then you're both salty. I don't know why they do it. Some might keep hoping for more, but I am not sure if that makes the friendship fake. It's also possible that they think they can handle it and then find out that it's far more difficult to let go of their feelings than they thought it would be, Yup, in the same way it hurts more to be rejected for a date by someone who knows you well than it is to be rejected for a date by a stranger. I'd go so far as to say it hurts worse. When seeking a relationship, you're asking for more out of a person than a friendship. So to get rejected by someone who knows you well for your interest in the less weighty association of a friendship hurts worse. Guys feel bad because the woman said no to all that goes into a relationship because it makes them feel like they didn't measure up? Being rejected is always the opposite of what we are hoping for when we want to date someone. And it always sucks. I guess that is the same for men and women. Feeling like not measuring up is part of it as well, I suppose. I'll admit I would have liked to know why she wasn't interested. But the mere fact that she wasn't interested isn't something I hold against her. There are other things I am mad about, but not that. I felt mostly foolish because I had thought she might be interested. It's not surprising though, because I suck at reading women's signals. Still, that's a bit embarrassing if you think about it. When the woman thinks "What on earth is he thinking? I don't like him like that." And at the same time, you think she might like you as more than a friend. That's just an odd feeling to deal with. Imagine being told you don't measure up to even a friendly association just because of your genitalia! It tells the ladies that their only value is in you gaining sexual access to her and anything else - personality, interests, talents, viewpoint - you were never going to appreciate that anyway even if they had agreed to date you. I don't agree. Granted, the emotional intimacy and sex are inextricably linked with each other in my mind, maybe that is the problem. Say I like the woman as a friend. I like her personality, her sense of humour, admire her talents, value her opinion, and think she is an amazing person. And I also think she is very attractive. No matter how hard I try, I will eventually run out of excuses why I wouldn't want to be more than friends. I honestly don't see how I can not try to push for a relationship with her under these circumstances. I'll freely admit, I would want sex, too. But it's really not just about sex. Wanting a chance to make a relationship work is not only offering the best I have to offer, it's also meant as a compliment. Only very few women would get such an offer. Obviously, that alone isn't and never should be a reason for the woman to accept it. But I think it's too easy to just look at it as another guy who wants to get laid, and only pretends to be the woman's friend for that sole purpose. Personally, if you can enjoy a woman's company without getting laid - you're useless for a relationship anyway. Was the bolded supposed to be 'can't'? Yup; typo moment:p Ok, But how will i know if they are approaching me to be friendly or what? If they don't set off any red flags then I just have to see how it goes? Yes, I'm afraid so. I'm sorry that you've been hurt like that... No need to be sorry. Mostly, I have to blame myself for getting carried away. It's not the woman's fault that I suck at reading signals. Thank you for taking the time out to write this post, I wish more men would be as good at articulating their emotions instead of coming out with really random spiteful comments. We need to clone you somehow That's because I had a lot of time to think about that situation, my feelings and my actions. In the heat of the moment, raw emotions are much harder to express and/or contain. Looking back on the end of that friendship, that wasn't one of my prouder moments. We both got hurt. And the creepiness of cloning aside, it would not be a wise decision to clone me.
sally4sara Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Say I like the woman as a friend. I like her personality, her sense of humour, admire her talents, value her opinion, and think she is an amazing person. And I also think she is very attractive. No matter how hard I try, I will eventually run out of excuses why I wouldn't want to be more than friends. I honestly don't see how I can not try to push for a relationship with her under these circumstances. I'll freely admit, I would want sex, too. But it's really not just about sex. Wanting a chance to make a relationship work is not only offering the best I have to offer, it's also meant as a compliment. Only very few women would get such an offer. Obviously, that alone isn't and never should be a reason for the woman to accept it. But I think it's too easy to just look at it as another guy who wants to get laid, and only pretends to be the woman's friend for that sole purpose. No I get that feelings of appreciation could develop into feelings of love. We always see comments on a man's ability to compartmentalize love from sex. I do this with friendship. I can think a guy is attractive, but only be his friend just fine. I can develop a deeper appreciation for him over time. But if I'm not single and/or he is not single - I just don't ponder any romantic possibilities. Not even the "ooh boy you're so going to get it once you're single" plotting and waiting bit. Same deal with guys I did find extremely attractive - if I found they had a SO, that physical attraction immediately died. And I put that, as I did originally in this thread, down to not being so focused on sex or having a relationship when I was single. I think back to teen years - no way I could have been just a friend to a guy I was attracted to. The fact I got married at 19 only stands to prove what I say. But that drive to establish one's self as a sexual entity wears off and becomes a less abstract element of who you are so the pressure is off due to maturity or being in a relationship already. So I come back to it - maybe the dreaded friendzone is a bigger matter for the young or inexperienced?
Stockalone Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) No I get that feelings of appreciation could develop into feelings of love. We always see comments on a man's ability to compartmentalize love from sex. I never understood why people do that. I do this with friendship. I can think a guy is attractive, but only be his friend just fine. I can develop a deeper appreciation for him over time. But if I'm not single and/or he is not single - I just don't ponder any romantic possibilities. Not even the "ooh boy you're so going to get it once you're single" plotting and waiting bit. Same deal with guys I did find extremely attractive - if I found they had a SO, that physical attraction immediately died. Sure, people who are previously committed are off-limits. But where is the connection to our discussion? And I put that, as I did originally in this thread, down to not being so focused on sex or having a relationship when I was single. I think back to teen years - no way I could have been just a friend to a guy I was attracted to. The fact I got married at 19 only stands to prove what I say. But that drive to establish one's self as a sexual entity wears off and becomes a less abstract element of who you are so the pressure is off due to maturity or being in a relationship already. So I come back to it - maybe the dreaded friendzone is a bigger matter for the young or inexperienced? I don't know what "sexual entity" means. I am not really focused on having sex, but I do want a relationship (which then would include sex). So as I said before, it's quite possible that you are right. People with a focus on either sex or a relationship might see little to no use for "just" a friendship with someone from the opposite sex. I am not sure age alone changes this, it didn't for me. It might for others, though. Edited January 25, 2011 by Stockalone
somedude81 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 The difference for men is that when they b/c emotionally attached he will want more than friendship whereas a women can be emotionally attached and be fine with friendship only. Women have an easier time being just friends and no, it's not all just about getting sex for men. I was being sarcastic as I thought you were.. I highly doubt he was being sarcastic. If you want answers to your "Questionis" you need to really try and understand what people are saying. It is natural for a single man to want to form a relationship with a woman he has an emotional connection with. A mans thought process is, "She's cute, fun to be with, likes the same things I do, therefore we should date." Unfortunately though for women the above reasons are not strong enough to make her want to date a guy. That is why it's extremely common to hear about guys falling in love with their female best friend, but the girl doesn't see the guy the same way. My conclusion is that it's easier for a man to fall for a woman than for a woman to fall for a man.
GoodOnPaper Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 So you have to be sexually wanted to feel respected? By a woman that I would view as a potential dating partner? Of course.
hydorclops Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I understand this unrequited attraction. But how often do men really get stuck in this situation? It seems like it's from bad fiction as much as real life. It's like a terrible meme that's infected some people. Some fool makes up some stupid idea like, "Within a few seconds of meeting you a woman will decide forever whether or not you're a potential sex partner." A couple of women endorse this, and it's suddenly true. Then someone invents the friendzone and people get worried all over again. Just go back to accepting simple rejection, whether or not there's an invitation to be friends. "I see you as a brother, I want to be friends, I just don't see you that way. Can't we just hang out?" These are not insults, because they're not intended to be insulting. Somedude81, I know you've suffered pretty bad. I can sympathize. Stop putting yourself through this.
Yamaha Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 If you listen to women you will understand why they rarely fall for a friend. If they are attracted and the guy doesn't feel the same she will not want a friendship. She wants the guy to want her as a women as well as a friend. It's guys who get themselves in this position by hanging out with a girl their attracted to and then they want more from the friendship. Don't be mad at the girl if she wants friendship only but walk away if it is not what you desire. Your not less of a man b/c you don't desire to be her friend only. Friendships are nice when there is only friendship wanted by both but don't settle for it like you have no other options available.
somedude81 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Somedude81, I know you've suffered pretty bad. I can sympathize. Stop putting yourself through this. You make it sound like I do it to myself intentionally. These last few years or so I was in two friendzone situations. 1. She was a coworker. We started hanging out just as friends. I was not attracted to her and she was completely not my type. As time went by and we spent more time together, I began to fall for her. Few months later I told her and in return got, "I like you, but not in that way." Friendzoned. 2. Met a girl in school, thought we were flirting. Got lunch a few times after class, went to the Japanese garden on campus. Scheduled a date, she ends up bringing a guy friend. Next day at school I want to know what the hell happened. "I don't want to date anybody." Friendzoned. In both situations I stopped talking to the girls. There was absolutely nothing I could have done to avoid being friendzoned. Things went haywire with girl 2 in that we ended up having another class together. We had no contact over summer break. A few weeks after the semester started I ask her out again and got the same answer. But I stay friends with her and tried various things to win her over, to no avail. I really liked her and did not want to give up. Even though she knew I liked her, she would still hang out with me and even came to my apartment a couple of times. In the end, I just couldn't get her, and we haven't talked since December. Right now, my biggest issue is that I don't know how to make girls like me, and I inadvertently become their friend. The only thing I can do is break communication once I'm rejected. So the friendzone is when I like a girl and want to have a relationship with her but instead I become her friend and she wants nothing more from me.
carhill Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I've been sucker-punched a lot with the sexual power play bob and weave emotional manipulation tactic. In the past I was never 'mad', rather 'hurt', mainly by the manipulation. The key change is I now react without emotion. Say the words but mean nothing. Remain detached. I also shut off my phone. Peace and quiet is nice. Unsurprisingly, the friendzone can be a noisy place. Chatter, chatter. Solitude is looking better every day. If you listen to women you will understand why they rarely fall for a friend. If they are attracted and the guy doesn't feel the same she will not want a friendship. She wants the guy to want her as a women as well as a friend. Clear and succinct. Nice My problem prior is I often start out not seeing the woman as attractive at all, hence fine as a friend but, with the power play and some intimacy, it gets me. Doing a lot better now. I expect the power play and ignore it. By stepping back and analyzing it dispassionately, I'm amazed at how much sexual suggestion and innuendo is used to 'grease' things. I remember, years ago when I was more gullible, a lady employee tried that while I was working on loan committee and the end result was she was greasing the skids to sell me an investment product she was moonlighting selling. She left the office in short order. I didn't fall for the ultimate goal. Great lesson.
MrNate Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I didn't think the friendzone was this bad. I mean, Ive done it to girls. It just happens. Why is it so offensive? I mean there's 3 billion women out there, all it takes is one to make the rest not matter. I dont think its worth getting hung up over. Tell me, would you friend zone her? http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.pharmacyescrow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/obese.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.pharmacyescrow.com/blog/index.php/2010/07/07/obese-face-more-problems/&usg=__xhJns-F4Mh2W0HB1r4gcHoJhKP4=&h=485&w=405&sz=22&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=F_VC0fogfHXScM:&tbnh=114&tbnw=94&ei=lGU-Te-8D4G78gah-_G_Cg&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dobese%2Bwomen%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D532%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=113&vpy=179&dur=3414&hovh=246&hovw=205&tx=75&ty=131&oei=lGU-Te-8D4G78gah-_G_Cg&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0 Even if her personality was awesome, the answer is (most likely) yes. So why should it offend you when a woman does it to you.. When you know you've done it to other women? I feel when you operate from a mindset of abundance, and not scarcity, then everything naturally falls in place.
carhill Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) I'd have to friendzone her, as she apparently is already 'taken' Since no woman has ever approached me with romantic intentions, I've never 'friend-zoned' a woman. If dating, I discontinue dating if I find the woman incompatible (or the reverse), but that's not 'friend-zoning' her. We tried to date and it didn't work out. I also have never led a woman on, intentionally, with any hint of sexual innuendo. The many female LS'ers with whom I've had contact will attest to that. Edited January 25, 2011 by carhill
Cracker Jack Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) I didn't think the friendzone was this bad. I mean, Ive done it to girls. It just happens. Why is it so offensive? I mean there's 3 billion women out there, all it takes is one to make the rest not matter. I dont think its worth getting hung up over. Tell me, would you friend zone her? http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.pharmacyescrow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/obese.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.pharmacyescrow.com/blog/index.php/2010/07/07/obese-face-more-problems/&usg=__xhJns-F4Mh2W0HB1r4gcHoJhKP4=&h=485&w=405&sz=22&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=F_VC0fogfHXScM:&tbnh=114&tbnw=94&ei=lGU-Te-8D4G78gah-_G_Cg&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dobese%2Bwomen%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D532%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=113&vpy=179&dur=3414&hovh=246&hovw=205&tx=75&ty=131&oei=lGU-Te-8D4G78gah-_G_Cg&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0 Even if her personality was awesome, the answer is (most likely) yes. So why should it offend you when a woman does it to you.. When you know you've done it to other women? I feel when you operate from a mindset of abundance, and not scarcity, then everything naturally falls in place. Damn!!!! I guess scenario's like the above never come up within your mind when you're the one actually being friendzoned. However, the above does help me understand things better. Being friendzoned is tough, but I've learned to deal with it. But yeah, top-notch post is top-notch. Edited January 25, 2011 by Cracker Jack
MrNate Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I'd have to friendzone her, as she apparently is already 'taken' Since no woman has ever approached me with romantic intentions, I've never 'friend-zoned' a woman. If dating, I discontinue dating if I find the woman incompatible (or the reverse), but that's not 'friend-zoning' her. We tried to date and it didn't work out. I also have never led a woman on, intentionally, with any hint of sexual innuendo. The many female LS'ers with whom I've had contact will attest to that. As expected from carhill, one of the more respectable posters. Sorry for the lengthy link.. Wait I just thought about something... If a guy doesn't friend zone a woman he's compatible with what does he do that will let her know hes not interested? Because if it's anything like 'cut communication, or tell her I'm not interested', surely women are capable of doing the same things without coming across as 'rude' right? (Anyone can answer this by the way)
MrNate Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Damn!!!! I guess scenario's like the above never come up within your mind when you're the one actually being friendzoned. However, the above does help me understand things better. Being friendzoned is tough, but I've learned to deal with it. But yeah, top-notch post is top-notch. Thanks man, and I'm glad you're able to see where I'm coming from. Because you have to think.. in the end, does it really matter?
carhill Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) If a guy doesn't friend zone a woman he's compatible with what does he do that will let her know hes not interested?Assuming you mean he's aware of her romantic interest and doesn't have reciprocal feelings, my opinion aligns with the women who have rejected me clearly, either with 'you sound like you'd make a great friend' or 'I appreciate the interest but I don't feel that way about you'. I've heard a lot of that in my life. It's rejection I respect. I can't presume what a woman would respect but that would probably be how I'd handle it. If it ever actually happens, I'll report here Oh, I screwed up.... let me edit... Now I'm confused. The guy finds the woman compatible but he's not interested in her romantically but doesn't friend-zone her. I feel like that guy on the bottom. Edited January 25, 2011 by carhill
Author Questionis Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 Perhaps it would be better to say I am friendly with most of my exes though not exactly friends. I also want to add that it's a bit disingenuous to pretend you're Ok with a platonic relationship when in your heart you really want more. I would say the same thing.I pleased to find that even though some of the things I have read make me worry, there are still lots of people like you who are, well much better at dealing with the ups and downs ,disappointments and hurts that are part of any relationship. What strikes me though, is how strongly these people feel about their misguided beliefs!
Author Questionis Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 I like that test, carhill. Not many of my current "friends" would pass it. I also agree with the flirtations and whatnot. Sometimes friendly behaviour turns into flirtations. My ex-girlfriend use to flirt with this guy a lot back in secondary school. They were "friends" but there was definitely flirting, verbal and physical, a lot of grabbing and touching. Is that friendship? Where does the friendship go then? Yes, IME, it ends. I think maybe we should also look at the type of friends that we are keeping. I have mentioned before that I am friendly with my ex but its more friendly than friends. I think in the same way you wouldn't keep a partner who treats you badly around, you shouldn't keep friends who treat you badly around either.
Author Questionis Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 Also, if you communicate a clear boundary about what you expect from the friendship, watch for the response. I'm looking forward to that. I think we could do with some guidance about friendship in here.It stands to reason that people who are putting up with bad relationships also have bad friendships.
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