paddington bear Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Since my last LTR there really has not been much happening, but what has, has all been negative. Basically, I have attracted: Group 1: Emotionally unavailable men. Nice guys who seem to like me, and have genuinely been kind to me and looked out for me, but...wouldn't, couldn't or didn't want me as a girlfriend, while stringing me along with the carrot that they might change their mind on that one some day. This lot kind of slide in under the radar, a slow relationship builds up, they behave in a way that makes me think that they are attracted to me, flirting, faces lighting up when I walk in the room. So, I get all excited, "Oh I think he likes me!". However, as soon as I reciprocate and show interest, or they feel like I expect anything more than to be flirted with and led on, I get told or shown that I am in the friendzone. Group 2: Guys who I meet who I can really, really talk to, laugh with and feel immensely comfortable with from the offset. These tend to be more lively and chatty, rather similar to myself and I have such a great time with them that I always really, really want to see them again just to be in their company. Often other people who witness these interactions (friends of mine, or the guy in question) are like "Wow! You two really hit it off! Is there something going on?" However, despite all appearances to the contrary, no, there never is anything going on. If I sleep with one of these guys, they disappear. Or if I don't, they disappear. Either way, they disappear. So much for some amazing connection that I feel is going on and observers notice too. So, what the hell is that? Are the guys just pretending to be enamored with me? Why behave so totally blown away by me, only to totally lose interest pretty much immediately? Essentially: I am attracting men who will never want to date me, or have a relationship with me! For 10 years now this is all I have attracted. Every single one of them. I have to put a halt to this. I can feel myself becoming cynical and bitter about men, because this crap is all I have personally experienced over and over and over again. I think deep down my belief after all this is that men do not want relationships and will do anything in their power to escape having one - particularly with me. It has now, in fact, when I think about it, actually become a core belief. I can't change that belief because I have learned through hard experience that it is true. And each further negative experience confirms that my belief is totally right. These damn men who have continually rejected me for years have really now just made me feel totally unloveable. Attractive yes, good to talk to, yes, fun to have sex with, yes. But never ever good enough to want more with. It's really getting me down. (And no, I can't 'love myself' or feel like I am worthy of love without concrete proof that that is the case. I cannot pretend to myself that I am loveable, when all evidence points to the contrary. That is just lying to myself and I will not believe that lie no matter how much I tell myself that yes I am loveable and worthy of proper love blah blah, without concrete proof of that i.e. a man not behaving as above, then I will never believe it.) Obviously the problem is me. I am attracting, and becoming attracted to men who will never want me. And although I've split them broadly into two groups - backgrounds, culture, jobs and personalities have all been widely different, so I'm always surprised when yet another one, who seemed so different to all the others, also does not want me. How on earth does my stupid brain pick out from all the millions of men in the world the ones that will not want me and decide it is attracted to them? Or is this simply down to 10 years of bad luck? I'm usually attracted to a man because we have stuff in common, can laugh together, find the person physically attractive. i.e. the normal reasons one might be attracted to a member of the opposite sex. For me, as soon as I have a great time with someone, get on fantastically with them, it means without question that I will never see them again. When other people have that experience of getting on great with someone, being attracted, having a wonderful time together, having a connection, it means the beginning of something wonderful. Why is it the kiss of death for me? I am not so stupid that I am reading the signals of attraction wrongly, seeing as outside observers came to the same conclusion as me. So, what the hell is going on here? Is it just down to sheer bad luck?
january2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) I don't have any advice at the moment, but just wanted to say that I can relate - I'm a little concerned that I may be on a similar path and it's something that I'm just going to have to accept because it's the norm for our generation. Recently, I came across the following webpage about letting go of unavailable people and I've had a few epiphanies about who I attract and who I'm attracted to: http://www.joy2meu.com/letting_go.html Edited January 23, 2011 by january2011
zengirl Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 I think deep down my belief after all this is that men do not want relationships and will do anything in their power to escape having one - particularly with me. It has now, in fact, when I think about it, actually become a core belief. I don't know if I believe we only attract what we believe to an extreme, but I certainly do think that what we experience dominantly in our lives will coincide with what we believe. And I believe the causality is linked---we experience something, it can change a belief, but if we believe something, it can change what we experience too. I think it goes both ways, and that these beliefs you have are not ONLY because of your experiences but also part of the reason for them. It's a tricky cycle. I was there with the men I dated --- though I never slept with any of them that wouldn't commit to being a BF --- for awhile, including one BF who was basically a glorified FWB situation. He gave me exclusivity, but never emotional investment, no matter how hard I tried. That was my college BF, and before/immediately after him I had a lot of guys I dated who were commitment-phobes. I had to completely overhaul my type, beliefs, etc. For me, that meant doing a few things: 1.) Developing a list of signs of this kind of guy. 2.) Looking at other people's healthy relationships and seeing how they developed/what skills I was missing, but also just celebrating them -- not getting jealous about them, but happy about them (this part was key for me) -- as well. 3.) Dating men who wouldn't typically be my type. I'm not saying I got into a LTR with a guy I didn't really dig, or even slept with any, but I accepted and sought dates with more than just the guys I was over the moon about. Still do, though I've become a bit pickier about that as I have developed better sensibilities. By opening up my net wider, I felt more wanted and desired. 4.) And the most important part---re-shaping my beliefs and not allowing my inner voice to tell myself that guys didn't want to commit to me, and emotionally invest. (And no, I can't 'love myself' or feel like I am worthy of love without concrete proof that that is the case. I cannot pretend to myself that I am loveable, when all evidence points to the contrary. That is just lying to myself and I will not believe that lie no matter how much I tell myself that yes I am loveable and worthy of proper love blah blah, without concrete proof of that i.e. a man not behaving as above, then I will never believe it.) Why is it a lie? If you love yourself, you prove you are worthy of love, as well as capable of loving. When your friends love you, when your family loves you, they prove you are worthy of love. Why give romantic love all the power? It is really just one small kind of love. After what I've observed in the world, I think loving yourself is key to attracting healthy mates. Some people get there with dumb luck, but developing real self-love and self-esteem is generally a major way to increase your odds. How on earth does my stupid brain pick out from all the millions of men in the world the ones that will not want me and decide it is attracted to them? My thought? Because you cannot love yourself, as said above, and your brain is only going to pick out what you give it. If you give it, "I'm unloveable," you're going to get guys who agree more often than not. But also: Or is this simply down to 10 years of bad luck? This, too. Some people feed their brains bad ideas and get lucky anyway. It does happen. Anyway, those are my thoughts. I'm not sure they'll help you. 10 years of bad social capital (these bad experiences) is certainly harder to break-through than my few years of it.
Woggle Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Deep down you might be just as commitment phobic as these men and be subconsciously attracted to them.
EasyHeart Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 (And no, I can't 'love myself' or feel like I am worthy of love without concrete proof that that is the case. I cannot pretend to myself that I am loveable, when all evidence points to the contrary. That is just lying to myself and I will not believe that lie no matter how much I tell myself that yes I am loveable and worthy of proper love blah blah, without concrete proof of that i.e. a man not behaving as above, then I will never believe it.)I think this is most likely the root of your problem. People who don't love themselves can't honestly love another person. And people who require external validation from their partners drive away healthy (and many unhealthy) partners. It is incredibly draining when people make their partner responsible for their happiness.
Nexus One Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 In Germany they did research which resulted in the following numbers. 25% of all (German) men do not want to get into a relationship. They just want to work, make money and not have to deal with the "inconveniences" of a relationship. Ok, but that's a German study about German men. They tend to work very hard, I happen to know their type, very industrious critters. There's a reason Germany has the largest industrial area in the world, the Ruhr area. There was also an American study of which the results are as follows. 97% of all Americans will eventually at one point of their life get married. So only 3% of Americans will die without ever having been married. So that right there already shows some differences between countries. It's possible that it has to do with the US being more religious, but I can't say that for sure.
Cee Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 I think it's crucial that you develop deep and loyal self-love. I believe in the concept of abundance, which for me is that the more love you have for yourself, the more love that will come into your life. But more importantly, loving yourself is the ultimate reward. I'm not one of those "the secret" disciples or anything. But when I learned to love myself, all sorts of cool things happened. When I love myself, I take care of myself- my health, my emotional needs, my desire for happiness and fun. I don't wait for a boyfriend to take me on a trip or to a concert. I go by myself. I don't try to get in shape for a guy. Instead, I do it for myself. I spoil myself rotten because I love myself so much. I see something I want to buy or go do and I do it. But I have these little arguments with myself over money. It's almost like a lover's quarrel This strategy isn't really a trick to get a LTR. I have not had a relationship for a long time, but I have learned that I don't need a relationship. I am more relaxed about dating and when something doesn't work out, I don't fall apart. I have come to accept that I may never have a LTR, but I have faith that everything will work out somehow. I just keep trying to do the right thing and realize the outcome is out of my hands. 1
Stockalone Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 In Germany they did research which resulted in the following numbers. 25% of all (German) men do not want to get into a relationship. They just want to work, make money and not have to deal with the "inconveniences" of a relationship. Do you have a link to that survey?
Emilia Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 That was my college BF, and before/immediately after him I had a lot of guys I dated who were commitment-phobes. I had to completely overhaul my type, beliefs, etc. For me, that meant doing a few things: 1.) Developing a list of signs of this kind of guy. 2.) Looking at other people's healthy relationships and seeing how they developed/what skills I was missing, but also just celebrating them -- not getting jealous about them, but happy about them (this part was key for me) -- as well. 3.) Dating men who wouldn't typically be my type. I'm not saying I got into a LTR with a guy I didn't really dig, or even slept with any, but I accepted and sought dates with more than just the guys I was over the moon about. Still do, though I've become a bit pickier about that as I have developed better sensibilities. By opening up my net wider, I felt more wanted and desired. this is what I did. I am much better at recognising signs of men that are available for a relationship vs those that are not. partly because I am more ready for a committed relationship now and am actively looking for someone who is suitable. I appreciate men that wear their heart on their sleeve, I know it must be really tough for them and I appreciate their honesty and love. I find that they usually want to be in a relationship with me (although it's slightly more complex than that) and that we get on well. Online dating has helped me a LOT because it has allowed me access to a large number of men and gave me the confidence to be very upfront about what I want and to quiz them over what they want and watch their reaction. Women say that men lie when they only want sex from you but that's not true in the majority of the cases in my experience, you just need to know the signs. If you ask them, more often than not they will be actually honest about it.
OceanGirl Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Paddy, the only thing that I can say is that I have recognized signs of men that are EU and/or wanting casual sex as early as possible and cut and run, rather than wasting months or years on futile situations. Other than that, simply do not give up. If you truly want a relationship, keep trying and trying and trying.
starmar Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Deep down you might be just as commitment phobic as these men and be subconsciously attracted to them. I think you are on to something here.... I can relate to the pattern and sometimes, when I'm completely honest with myself, I believe deep down I'm so scared of being hurt after being committed to someone that I'm subconsciously attracting ( or attracted to ) guys who are just as afraid of commitment ......
Nexus One Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Do you have a link to that survey? I saw it on tv, so no. However that survey should be online somewhere.
HeartsOnSleeves Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 (And no, I can't 'love myself' or feel like I am worthy of love without concrete proof that that is the case. I cannot pretend to myself that I am loveable, when all evidence points to the contrary. That is just lying to myself and I will not believe that lie no matter how much I tell myself that yes I am loveable and worthy of proper love blah blah, without concrete proof of that i.e. a man not behaving as above, then I will never believe it.) I don't have a lot of advice, but can provide some empathy. I don't love myself either and feel like I need that concrete proof to feel like I'm worthy too. When I look at myself in the mirror I only see the things I hate or replay all the nasty things people have said or done (such as a cafeteria of frat boys calling me dog and barking at me until I left the lunchroom). So that when someone starts acting like they like me, my initial reaction is surprise and then suspicion. Like, "What's wrong with this guy that he likes me? What's his ulterior motive?" I put myself on a path for relationship self-sabotage. There's a quote from a book I like that goes, "We accept the love we think we deserve" and I think it's very true. If we think we are undeserving of love then we aren't going to be able to accept it when it comes around. Right now that involves me spending time working on myself and trying to figure out what I want and need out of life outside of a relationship, outside of men, because I do know in my heart that I will repeat this ugly cycle unless I do learn to love myself first. I don't know if that helped any, but my heart ached reading your post as I recognize that part in myself and because it is sad for anyone to feel this way.
dispatch3d Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Yeah, it really is the guys fault. God made two types of guys and now your doomed. There's no way you've done anything wrong, and some of those guys you've let "get away" were totally because of something they did - rather than something you did. I was thinking today, probably part of the reason girls have a hard time with dating is the ego they surround themselves with. There's a certain amount of ego every woman has about dating - they are good at dating, that is just a given. There's lots of evidence too - they can easily get dates, can get laid when they want, lots of guys hit on them, lots of guys flirt with them. I think this is why women have so many defensive mechanisms that get triggered when they are attempting to date. It's like when a nerd writes a test, and doesn't get the 95% he's used to. He (or she) immediately assumes the teacher is being unfair, is a bad teacher, there is a problem with the question, etc. Although to be fair a ton of guys have that same ego problem towards women. Even if they have never gotten a girls number, or one time asked a girl for her number and she gave it to them, they'd still believe they are good at this. So meh, I'm good at spotting issues, maybe? The better way to do things is really look at all the positives. This is all kinda drivel/wasted energy that would be better spent looking at ways to find a good boyfriend (zengirls post is probably pretty helpful).
jenifer1972 Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 What were the relationship histories of these guys? I find that there is no truth to the proverb "the past is the past"; in fact, it is a great predictor of future behavior..
Questionis Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Maybe you are stuck in a situation brought on by stereotype threat?
Author paddington bear Posted January 24, 2011 Author Posted January 24, 2011 I googled stereotype threat and didn't really get it to be honest, if you want to give me a simplified version, please feel free Thanks everyone for the replies. Woggle, you could be right, perhaps it is I who is commitment-phobic...but if I am it is buried so deep that I am totally unaware of it. January I'm going to read the link now that you have provided. zengirl, sound advice, but actually, seriously I have done all those things. I'm not super picky, I'm happy for my friends who find love, rather than jealous (okay at times there is a feeling of 'oh I wish I had that'...but we're talking twice a year). As regards the looking for signs...this bit perhaps. But honestly, if the unavailable men are the wolf and they are wearing sheep's clothing, they are wearing red wool, blue wool, patterned wool - i.e. they are wholly different types of men. I see signs afterwards (after I've been rejected), but from the offset, I'm not seeing a pattern (and believe you me, I'm really looking out for any similar behaviour patterns at this stage), but perhaps I need to pay more attention or there are subtleties that I'm totally missing out on.
Author paddington bear Posted January 24, 2011 Author Posted January 24, 2011 http://www.joy2meu.com/letting_go.html the link that january 2011 gave me: "No matter how much we are making an effort on a conscious level to not pick anyone like our parents, energetically we feel a strong attraction to people whose inner emotional dynamic is similar to our first experience of love. It was very important for me to get aware of the reality that if I met someone who felt like my soul mate, I had better watch out. Those are exactly the people who will fit my patterns - recreate my wounding" Well, this is rather horrible. To avoid the people you feel are your soul mate...because they will repeat painful patterns. But then...how can you trust who is your soul mate and recognise them when they come along, if all those feelings are only ignited when someone who is not good for you is around?
Bluemoo Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 This must be very upsetting - I have just been reeled in and disregarded by someone you class as group 1. From what I can garner at the moment, these types of men are just players and they are well practised at making you feel wonderful, sexy and as if there is some amazing connection especially when you first meet. A true, meaningful and good for you relationship will take time to grow and it isn't necessarily with one that you find instantly attractive and charming. I would be wary from now on with anyone you get on with instantly. Even if you are immensely attracted to them, play it cool and don't get reeled in - if they are true they will stick by you for a lot longer than these past guys have. I need to take this advice myself by the way
Author paddington bear Posted January 24, 2011 Author Posted January 24, 2011 This must be very upsetting - I have just been reeled in and disregarded by someone you class as group 1. From what I can garner at the moment, these types of men are just players and they are well practised at making you feel wonderful, sexy and as if there is some amazing connection especially when you first meet. Some of them are, defintely one of mine was exactly like this, the others were in a genuine, confused, emotionally unavailable state, but I guess still wanted the ego boost that I liked them, which I of course read as them really liking me. And I've just been thinking the same as you. When I click with someone, I think I get a little over-excited, it puts a spring in my step, if I get an email or whatever, I smile... But you are right, to be wary of someone I get on well with instantly, because that getting on well has totally led me astray and confused me. Perhaps I should see it as a red flag now (in my personal circumstances) and wait and see and wait some more and then a little more.
january2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Well, this is rather horrible. To avoid the people you feel are your soul mate...because they will repeat painful patterns. But then...how can you trust who is your soul mate and recognise them when they come along, if all those feelings are only ignited when someone who is not good for you is around? That's not how I read it, Paddington Bear. I think that the author is merely suggesting that you keep your eyes and ears open and be aware of repeating patterns and trends when you meet someone with whom you feel an instant (soulmate) attraction. They're not suggesting that you avoid that person altogether. Over the weekend, I did some 'Bad Relationships/How On Earth Did I Get So Stupid?' exercises that were a more detailed version of Zengirl's advice: http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/badrelationships.shtml If you can spare the time and want to really get into the nitty gritty, it might be worth going through the same process to evaluate your relationship history. Some of the answers may surprise you - I had quite a few epiphanies while going through each section. And seeing it all written down in one place is actually quite liberating in a way.
jane100 Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Paddington, i also felt moved by your original post, and have no easy answers. But after only 2 months internet dating (long prior gap) sadly I do understand some of your despair. I've even started to look at happy couples in the street with some weird curiosity and envy (something I have never done in my entire life!) I can't say I have felt the strong connections that you have, but I do concur with the sense of excitement which can cause problems when getting carried away (which is really sad because to me it also shows that you'r'e an "alive" kind of person). I have begun to think - taking your time, self-care, being observant, staying rooted but being open to experience ... not always easy but the best practice. Also, really looking after yourself in the meantime (if you can afford to ), taking care of yourself and the things you care about can all help on this path.
mortensorchid Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 I've been where you are, Paddy Bear. But I stopped sitting there looking at my pattern of behaviors or the ones I've been with because I realized that's nothing but self pity. Is it always true? Maybe so. But keep a few things in mind: 1) About 0.01% of the male population will not commit - When the person breaks up with you for whatever stupid reason he may or may not give, he is actually saying that he doesn't want to be with YOU. I believe there is a percent that will not commit, but that percentage is much smaller than you think it is. How many times have we heard stories about the man suddenly rebounding and married the next one that comes along after stringing someone along for how long? A LOT. And chances are, he picked someone who was lesser than he was, someone he could control and who did whatever he said. Do you really want to spend your life with someone like that? 2) The Past vs. The Future - Think about someone from the past who really hurt you, even if it's more than one that comes to mind. Would you REALLY want to still be with that person? Would you really want to be with a person who was the you from how many years ago? You're a different person now. And had you stayed with that person, you would have missed out on many opportunities to do things and meet others that you otherwise would have missed out on. And would you want to miss out on those things because of that person? Probably (or hopefully) not. 3) Happiness - Happiness is an illusion. But, we have to make it. We are not given happiness, we are to make it. And that person would not have made you happy. If anything, he would have made you completely miserable. And whoever he ends up with, you know he is making them miserable. 4) Maturity - Sure, we're all immature from time to time, but can you imagine marrying your high school sweetheart? You are such a different person than when you were when you were 18, when you were 22 or whenever. Chances are that person from the past is also. Would you have EVER been compatible? Probably not. Something will always get in the way of it. So just remember, if it wasn't meant to be then it wasn't meant to be. I'm realizing that myself it seems, but we all have to come to this conclusion at some point. Painful lesson and hard to accept, but it is a necessary truth to learn.
luvflower Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 ...loving yourself is the ultimate reward. I'm not one of those "the secret" disciples or anything. But when I learned to love myself, all sorts of cool things happened. When I love myself, I take care of myself- my health, my emotional needs, my desire for happiness and fun. I don't wait for a boyfriend to take me on a trip or to a concert. I go by myself. I don't try to get in shape for a guy. Instead, I do it for myself. I spoil myself rotten because I love myself so much. I see something I want to buy or go do and I do it. But I have these little arguments with myself over money. It's almost like a lover's quarrel This strategy isn't really a trick to get a LTR. I have not had a relationship for a long time, but I have learned that I don't need a relationship. I am more relaxed about dating and when something doesn't work out, I don't fall apart. I have come to accept that I may never have a LTR... i really like your intent in this post. it's so true, that we have to love ourselves just as much as we want someone else to love us. and "the secret" is somewhat skewed IMO, only because some of the sweetest people in this world get taken advantage of just because they are just "too sweet". so what does "the secret" have to say about that? i believe that people should have more of a balance of life expectations and what we expect in relationships with others, in a realistic sense. yes it's cool to have friends of the opposite sex and not have any expectations. however, when it gets to the point where you're always in the friendzone or the guy is not reciprocating, it's time to not be so nice...meaning don't give so much of your "love" away to just anyone. your love to me is any part of "you" that you value. hanging out is cool, but i always felt like you have to be careful who you give your time to and who you allow in your circle of joy and peace. some people just like being around people who stroke their egos and make them feel good, while you are left feeling drained and empty. in essence, love yourself just as much or more than you want others to. and most importantly, don't be afraid to show it!
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