Have to Laugh.... Too obvious.... Yet one will never listen....

[LittleTiger]

And I've sat and watched a 22 minute show....

that I knew beforehand I was going to dislike and thought at best it was "take it or leave it" but was time spent with my spouse..... Sort of the same thing????/;)

 

:laugh: You're kidding right?

[giotto]

When the carrot doesn't work, and you aren't willing to use the threat of divorce to have your needs prioritized, there is a "soft" stick.

 

Lets face it - there is only one type of stress that is comparable to being sexually shut down. Acute financial and total "workload" stress. So if I were in a situation where "I" wasn't allowed to divorce my W, but SHE was allowed to divorce me, I would most likely stop working and put ALL the financial stress on her. And then I would gradually become a less and less helpful "house husband". My W really and truly does love me. That said I would give her 90 days max before she came to bed either in a negligee or with a folder containing divorce papers.

 

Of course - being me - my delivery style would not be "harsh", in fact just the opposite. It would be something like this: "I am clinically depressed by the state of our marriage and am unable to work. I don't see that changing until our marriage heals." And then I would rinse/repeat that phrase.

 

At that point your spouse has a decision to make. For those who have a phobia of being labelled shallow for divorcing over "sex", this puts the shoe on the other foot. You can always say "they divorced me because my income decreased"

 

Frankly if I were HV I WOULD do this. His real issue seems to be that his W has no powerful motivator to get her to try to "fix" this.

 

I did this and she left me. She said I was being unbearable and that she wanted to divorce me. We patched it up, on my initiative. That's were I failed.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

:laugh: You're kidding right?

 

I'm being an ass and responding to orgasms being take it or leave it..... I do plenty of stuff (and so does my wife), that falls in the "take it or leave it" category..... One of the most important things for me is sex..... And like a TV show that lasts approximately the same time (and comes on once a week;)), guess what I may end up not being a "take it or leave it" proposition but I like it and all is happy.....

 

My wife certainly (and I wouldn't want it otherwise) wants an orgasm when we do have sex and yes sometimes it is not as good as others (and I blame myself, but that already was a different post).... Very seldom in the last 10-15 years have we had sex where it was about just my orgasm and certainly not about giving me the best orgasm possible (tmi)......

[xxoo]

That's an interesting phrase to use mem and perhaps another example of how differently men and women see things. I think of lovemaking as 'finished' when we either fall asleep or get up for a shower - regardless of when, or if, we both orgasm.......or maybe I'm just being pedantic.

 

Another difference in experience between men and women...

 

Commonly, sex is "finished" when the man climaxes. (not always, but often). A common pattern is: make sure the woman has one or more orgasms, and then go for male orgasm. In this pattern, the woman is nearly ALWAYS having sex that continues beyond orgasm. She had orgasm a few minutes earlier, but she is continuing to enjoy sex and it often will not end with another "finishing" orgasm. And, no, it is usually not uncomfortable, or unpleasant, for sex to end without an orgasm.

 

that I knew beforehand I was going to dislike and thought at best it was "take it or leave it" but was time spent with my spouse..... Sort of the same thing????/;)

 

Does your wife sometimes do the same for you? (the tv thing)

If she is willing to watch a program with you just to spend time together, but unwilling to have sex just to spend time together, then it is not the same thing to her.

 

It's not the same thing to me, either

[LittleTiger]

I'm being an ass and responding to orgasms being take it or leave it..... I do plenty of stuff (and so does my wife), that falls in the "take it or leave it" category..... One of the most important things for me is sex..... And like a TV show that lasts approximately the same time (and comes on once a week;)), guess what I may end up not being a "take it or leave it" proposition but I like it and all is happy.....

 

Sorry TDP, but watching a TV show, however tedious you may find it is hardly comparable with allowing a man (yes even your loving husband if you really don't want it) to put his hands all over you and physically and emotionally, intimately 'invade' you - because, as awful as it sounds, that is what sex feels like for woman when she really isn't in the mood.

 

My wife certainly (and I wouldn't want it otherwise) wants an orgasm when we do have sex and yes sometimes it is not as good as others (and I blame myself, but that already was a different post).... Very seldom in the last 10-15 years have we had sex where it was about just my orgasm and certainly not about giving me the best orgasm possible (tmi)......

 

OK, well I agree, that's very selfish of her. If I'm really not in the mood but I know he 'needs' it, that's my cue to give him one of 'my specials'. I've never actually asked him (though obviously I will now ), but I think he even has his 'best' orgasms that way .

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Sorry TDP, but watching a TV show, however tedious you may find it is hardly comparable with allowing a man (yes even your loving husband if you really don't want it) to put his hands all over you and physically and emotionally, intimately 'invade' you - because, as awful as it sounds, that is what sex feels like for woman when she really isn't in the mood.

 

 

 

OK, well I agree, that's very selfish of her. If I'm really not in the mood but I know he 'needs' it, that's my cue to give him one of 'my specials'. I've never actually asked him (though obviously I will now ), but I think he even has his 'best' orgasms that way .

 

and cranky..... Just pointing out a bad analogy (purposefully) and reiterating that many would be okay with 1X/wk or equivalent to a TV show and wait for it..... Orgasms included (no promise as to how good or bad)...

[LittleTiger]

I said I'm being an ass......

 

Ah yes, sorry, missed that .....:laugh:

[Honorable_Venerable]

Your wife doesn't lack a frame of reference because she apparently used to enjoy sex - unless some of us were right when we suggested she did a 'bait and switch'. She used to be motivated to have sex with you - if you can find out whether it was for fun, or just to get you to marry her, that could give you an answer about where to go from here.

 

At the risk of seeming ungrateful, the advice I've been givien in the latter part of this thread isn't especially helpful. The reason is that in the main we are discussing sex from a perspective of liking / enjoying / doing from the perspective of what might be called "relationship health and fitness". The problem is my W's issues with us not having sex are ALL to do with psychological issues around her upbringing and family life arising from fears over men being in positions of power and authority, and actually f*ck-all to do with not being interested in / enjoying sex. She felt that by controlling our sex life, and keeping my on the back foot sexually, she retained control and could ensure that the sort of things her mother grew up with didn't happen in our house.

 

In this context, I'm not sure that adding financial hardship and the threat of divorce to the mixture is something that her psychotherapist would consider a valuable addition to the treatment regime she is putting into place...

 

I've been discussing the position from a somewhat hypothetical position - based on my experiences outwith the underlying psychology.

 

(I've PMd you a longer reply HV - it's too long to post here).

I'll answer you by return - our conversation is veering off topic a bit as well!

[mem11363]

HV,

You strike me as very fair. In fact I would say you consistently take the high road. You are the "least likely" guy to exploit someone in a position of weakness.

 

You have described your W as highly intelligent. Given that I have an observation and also a question for you.

 

She now acknowledges that she has basically been using the denial of sex and/or the "type" of sex to keep you in the position of perpetual supplicant. By "type" I mean she chose to create a situation where even with your iron man constitution you would often "fail" to please her. In a sense she was very deliberately (if unconciously) trying to emasculate you. And some of the master/slave comments she made to you regarding frequency were IMO degrading.

 

As for "why" she did that - I will accept that she saw some awful behavior in her childhood and perhaps that makes her "feelings" about control valid.

 

But in the cold light of day, she has been totally abusive to you, for offences that not only didn't you commit, but objectively speaking you are the polar opposite of the type person who would do that type stuff.

 

At what point does she stop navel gazing and come to you with genuine remorse in her heart and a willingness to show you the trust you have so consistently earned?

 

I am still struggling with the idea that she has "severe" issues and yet was able to completely mask them up until the point you got married at which point you officially became the "avatar" for her fear/distrust/dislike of men.

 

 

 

At the risk of seeming ungrateful, the advice I've been givien in the latter part of this thread isn't especially helpful. The reason is that in the main we are discussing sex from a perspective of liking / enjoying / doing from the perspective of what might be called "relationship health and fitness". The problem is my W's issues with us not having sex are ALL to do with psychological issues around her upbringing and family life arising from fears over men being in positions of power and authority, and actually f*ck-all to do with not being interested in / enjoying sex. She felt that by controlling our sex life, and keeping my on the back foot sexually, she retained control and could ensure that the sort of things her mother grew up with didn't happen in our house.

 

In this context, I'm not sure that adding financial hardship and the threat of divorce to the mixture is something that her psychotherapist would consider a valuable addition to the treatment regime she is putting into place...

 

I've been discussing the position from a somewhat hypothetical position - based on my experiences outwith the underlying psychology.

 

 

I'll answer you by return - our conversation is veering off topic a bit as well!

[LittleTiger]

In this context, I'm not sure that adding financial hardship and the threat of divorce to the mixture is something that her psychotherapist would consider a valuable addition to the treatment regime she is putting into place...

 

I've been discussing the position from a somewhat hypothetical position - based on my experiences outwith the underlying psychology.

 

I think the difficulty is that most of us know your story (or at least the parts of it which you have shared) but not the details of what's happening behind the scenes. It's difficult to discuss something hypothetically when you have too much background, but on that other hand not really enough information to give helpful advice - if that makes sense.

 

In your specific case you're best just working with what your psychologist advises because there's a lot of underlying issues that your wife is dealing with and, as willing as we all are to offer suggestions, most of us aren't qualified to help.

[xxoo]

I've been discussing the position from a somewhat hypothetical position - based on my experiences outwith the underlying psychology.

 

The hypothetical answers still apply.

 

By going to counseling at all, your wife is showing willingness to try. She's somewhat motivated to improve the relationship, either to make you both happier, or to simply avoid divorce.

 

Time will tell if she is able to make enough progress before another breaking point in the marriage.

 

I agree with mem that her childhood issues do not excuse abuse. She's been gaslighting you for years, pretending to be a sexual idiot. She may have been an innocent victim as a child, but she is not an innocent victim in the marriage.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

individual here on LS..... What he has accepted and put up with would have broken a weaker male..... It has been a while since I read mouth agape at his wife's manipulation of their sex life and how she too twisted the MC in to her own vision. His wife pulled a true bait and switch in their marriage and in MC has basically refused to acknowledge anything and frankly with a counselor (from the last posts) who has not confronted her to make true strides or things better for HV.....

 

I am sorry at what she saw/underwent growing up (not sure if there was actual molestation or something darker), but HV has done everything to this point, in fact I'd say capitulated to his wife's desire.

 

As for his exercise analogy it is apropos, but still you think there has to be light at the end of the tunnel.

 

And no this thread was not to find answers it was as I said laughing at what I thought was a facile answer to a complicated question.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Toodamnpragmatic

[LittleTiger]

And no this thread was not to find answers it was as I said laughing at what I thought was a facile answer to a complicated question.

 

Well, as we're now onto page 6 I guess that proves you were probably right

[giotto]

At the risk of seeming ungrateful, the advice I've been givien in the latter part of this thread isn't especially helpful. The reason is that in the main we are discussing sex from a perspective of liking / enjoying / doing from the perspective of what might be called "relationship health and fitness". The problem is my W's issues with us not having sex are ALL to do with psychological issues around her upbringing and family life arising from fears over men being in positions of power and authority, and actually f*ck-all to do with not being interested in / enjoying sex. She felt that by controlling our sex life, and keeping my on the back foot sexually, she retained control and could ensure that the sort of things her mother grew up with didn't happen in our house.

 

In this context, I'm not sure that adding financial hardship and the threat of divorce to the mixture is something that her psychotherapist would consider a valuable addition to the treatment regime she is putting into place...

 

I've been discussing the position from a somewhat hypothetical position - based on my experiences outwith the underlying psychology.

 

 

I'll answer you by return - our conversation is veering off topic a bit as well!

 

sounds familiar... at least yours is prepared to do something about it... on the other hand, my wife is not asking me to perform for 30 minutes, which is a relief... The psychological issue is a very difficult one. But it's a step forward when it's admitted. Still, doesn't take away the years of suffering, on both sides.