When I argue with reality, I lose, but only 100% of the time

[lovingwhatis]

Hello all,

 

I used to lurk awhile ago, after going through an EA almost 2 years ago. We've been NC for 1.5. It actually hasn't been tough for me to maintain it, I even stopped coming here and thought I was doing really well. I've thought of him all this time, and even have not dated because I felt that none of the people around me could compare with the intensity of feelings I have for mm.

 

But recently I came back on LS, and realized that a lot of the emotions regarding the EA I have have remained. And behind them are thoughts like, "I cannot get relationships right". I may be doing really well one minute, and feeling content, and then the next minute I feel completely inadequate. And what I noticed as I read posts on here is that many people have struggled with really letting go in a deep way. Even a new thread that I just saw called "Suffer for love" addresses that - the larger patterns we all have in relationships. For instance, I was in love with a man many years ago, a non MM, and seemingly couldn't let go of that love, even though I suffered because of it and was perpetually alone.

 

So I wanted to share with you this thing called "the Work" by Byron Katie. I've known of it for a while, but I don't practice it often, and cannot call myself a Katie fan per se (her fans take her classes and are very much into the work"). She says "when I argue with reality, I lose, but only 100% of the time". And then she presents 4 questions to inquire into one's thoughts. The claim is that after we question our thoughts we can see what was previously in our blind spot. So if you want to try it, here it is. I will do it with my thought "I can't get relationships right".

 

1. Is that true?

Well, my track record is pretty tough..

 

2. Do you absolutely know that would be true?

After the obvious knee jerk reaction, if I take relationships in a broader sense, that's not true, I have very good friendships and pretty good relationships with my family.

 

3. How do you react, what happens, when you believe that thought?

I get pretty despondent, down on myself, feel "broken".

 

4. Who would you be without the thought?

I would be more open to what's happening around me, and less fearful. I would feel freer and unencumbered by the past.

The turnarounds (this is kind of cool, you take the thought and "turn it around" a few ways to see if there is any validity to the new derivative thought).

 

I can get relationships right.

It's true, I have a fantastic friendship with my best friend. I am capable of being in relationships and maintaining them long term.

 

I can't get relationships wrong.

This is sort of a play of words, and can seem weird at first, but maybe there isn't anything to "get" wrong. Maybe I am focusing on the wrong thing.

 

 

So this is the "work". Check it out, judge yourself and or another, and then ask these four questions. For me, last night I was absolutely depressed, because I was feeling that I couldn't let go. I did this (and listened to a cool podcast that talks about similar concepts) and literally the sadness, the depression, the grief lifted.. It was pretty remarkable.

 

I see us on here suffering quietly (or not quietly), and I really really want for all of us to actually feel free in a deep sense.

[BB07]

Thank you so much for sharing that. I will try it.

 

It's funny but I'm absolutely confident that I will not repeat my previous behaviors and patterns but the thing I'm most afraid of now is that I will wall myself off completely from all men and any relationship. I don't trust myself yet.

[pureinheart]

Hello all,

 

I used to lurk awhile ago, after going through an EA almost 2 years ago. We've been NC for 1.5. It actually hasn't been tough for me to maintain it, I even stopped coming here and thought I was doing really well. I've thought of him all this time, and even have not dated because I felt that none of the people around me could compare with the intensity of feelings I have for mm.

 

But recently I came back on LS, and realized that a lot of the emotions regarding the EA I have have remained. And behind them are thoughts like, "I cannot get relationships right". I may be doing really well one minute, and feeling content, and then the next minute I feel completely inadequate. And what I noticed as I read posts on here is that many people have struggled with really letting go in a deep way. Even a new thread that I just saw called "Suffer for love" addresses that - the larger patterns we all have in relationships. For instance, I was in love with a man many years ago, a non MM, and seemingly couldn't let go of that love, even though I suffered because of it and was perpetually alone.

 

So I wanted to share with you this thing called "the Work" by Byron Katie. I've known of it for a while, but I don't practice it often, and cannot call myself a Katie fan per se (her fans take her classes and are very much into the work"). She says "when I argue with reality, I lose, but only 100% of the time". And then she presents 4 questions to inquire into one's thoughts. The claim is that after we question our thoughts we can see what was previously in our blind spot. So if you want to try it, here it is. I will do it with my thought "I can't get relationships right".

 

1. Is that true?

Well, my track record is pretty tough..

 

2. Do you absolutely know that would be true?

After the obvious knee jerk reaction, if I take relationships in a broader sense, that's not true, I have very good friendships and pretty good relationships with my family.

 

3. How do you react, what happens, when you believe that thought?

I get pretty despondent, down on myself, feel "broken".

 

4. Who would you be without the thought?

I would be more open to what's happening around me, and less fearful. I would feel freer and unencumbered by the past.

 

The turnarounds (this is kind of cool, you take the thought and "turn it around" a few ways to see if there is any validity to the new derivative thought).

 

I can get relationships right.

It's true, I have a fantastic friendship with my best friend. I am capable of being in relationships and maintaining them long term.

 

I can't get relationships wrong.

This is sort of a play of words, and can seem weird at first, but maybe there isn't anything to "get" wrong. Maybe I am focusing on the wrong thing.

 

 

So this is the "work". Check it out, judge yourself and or another, and then ask these four questions. For me, last night I was absolutely depressed, because I was feeling that I couldn't let go. I did this (and listened to a cool podcast that talks about similar concepts) and literally the sadness, the depression, the grief lifted.. It was pretty remarkable.

 

I see us on here suffering quietly (or not quietly), and I really really want for all of us to actually feel free in a deep sense.

 

I'm definitely not the "quiet" sufferer. This is very cool and it's about changing the way we think...it's about changing our minds:)...we become what we think we are...

 

Good OP:)

[lovingwhatis]

Thank you so much for sharing that. I will try it.

 

It's funny but I'm absolutely confident that I will not repeat my previous behaviors and patterns but the thing I'm most afraid of now is that I will wall myself off completely from all men and any relationship. I don't trust myself yet.

 

So glad you liked it, BB07, let me know how it goes when you try it! When I saw your other thread I thought that it is really cool that we are on the same wavelength.

 

I literally hadn't seen up until very recently my pattern with the previous guy I loved who was unavailable to me from the start .. It blew me away that I could subconsciously prevent myself from seeing the bigger picture.

 

And I can totally relate to the lack of self trust. That has been a core thing with me, and that why I've been super fast in breaking off dating relationships in the past. Currently, there are men interested in me, have been for years, and I am like a person standing on an edge of a cliff, afraid to fall. And they don't call it "falling" in love for nothing.

[lovingwhatis]

I'm definitely not the "quiet" sufferer. This is very cool and it's about changing the way we think...it's about changing our minds:)...we become what we think we are...

 

Good OP:)

 

LOL, not the "quiet" sufferer. Thanks, pureinheart! Let me know if you try it. It actually works better for thoughts like "they shouldn't do/be/say x/y/z".

[pureinheart]

LOL, not the "quiet" sufferer. Thanks, pureinheart! Let me know if you try it. It actually works better for thoughts like "they shouldn't do/be/say x/y/z".

 

I felt an actual physical type reaction...brain chemistry was changing and I could feel it.

 

The things we think and tell ourselves is so self defeating at times.

 

Excellent exersize...this thought process causes great minds to become great minds.

 

Every good/bad thing starts with the mind, it's our choice.

[pureinheart]

Thank you so much LWI and welcome to LS...sooo glad you posted...people need more positives, especially in this day and hour:)

[lovingwhatis]

Thank you so much LWI and welcome to LS...sooo glad you posted...people need more positives, especially in this day and hour:)

You made my day, pure!! Thank you very much for this welcome! Wow, you felt a physical change on your first try - that's awesome! For me, its like free, on-demand therapy.

 

When we free our minds we become able to allow life and love to flow.

 

And I just found this and wanted to share it with you.

 

"All a sane man can ever think about is giving love." Hafiz

[lovingwhatis]

You know, Pure, Rumi shifts my mind like nothing else. Stops me in my tracks. I just read this.. There is a closeness beyond what "we" consider closeness.

 

The Taste of Morning

 

Time's knife slides from the sheath,

as fish from where it swims.

 

Being closer and closer is the desire

of the body. Don't wish for union!

 

There's a closeness beyond that. Why

would God want a second God? Fall in

 

love in such a way that it frees you

from any connecting. Love is the soul's

 

light, the taste of morning, no me, no

we, no claim of being. These words

 

are the smoke the fire gives off as it

absolves its defects, as eyes in silence,

 

tears, face. Love cannot be said.

 

From The Glance

by Coleman Barks

[Breezy Trousers]

Huge fan of Byron Katie here. I appreciated your post. Thanks.

[lovingwhatis]

Huge fan of Byron Katie here. I appreciated your post. Thanks.

 

Thanks! Have you read her Thousand Names For Joy book? When I first read it it blew my mind, and I actually wasn't ready for it, but lately after reading more nonduality books I am perceiving what she is talking about in that book.

 

I saw your post on the books you like and would love to hear about how the Work has helped you with understanding yourself regarding the A. What was a big "aha" moment for you?

 

For me it has been the thing she asks "whose business are you in, your business, other people's business, or God's business?" I definitely could see how because of my subconscious need for control I have been in God's business (and other people's business).

[Breezy Trousers]

LovingWhatIs, I've been a fan of Byron Katie's since 2001. My husband and I did an Omega workshop with her (and Eckhart Tolle) in 2002.... I own about 500 hours of her doing the work, no kidding! There's really no need for therapy if you do The Work, IMO. (And, yes, this is just my opinion -- but only after spending lots of money on years of totally ineffective therapy with various people before 1997. None of it worked. Radical forgiveness was the only thing that healed me in the end.)

 

I've been a student of a non-dualistic forgiveness teaching since 1997, so Katie's work dovetailed perfectly with that. I was ripe for The Work when I encountered it in 2001.

 

This was perfect because shortly afterward I learned my husband had an affair -- so I got to practice it right away! ... My husband wasn't interested in my personal spiritual studies up until that point. It was my private interest, and I didn't feel the need to pull him into it anyway. However, after HIS affair, he expressed avid interest in joining me on this. I was suspicious. I thought he was just trying to get into my good graces -- i.e., "How convenient! He's betrayed me, and now we get to study radical forgiveness together! BS!" ... However, nearly a decade later, he's more passionate about this stuff than I am. The Work and similar stuff helped us heal a lot of hurt in our marriage. In fact, my husband works with guys recovering from sex addiction and often uses The Work as as helpful tool. (Many professional addiction counselors do as well.)

 

Then I -- Mrs. Goody Two Shoes! --was tempted with an affair between 2008-2010. For a long time I was wildly infactuated but also struggling to do the right thing. By early 2010 I began seeing the insanity of the situation and grew quite fearful of the MM in question. Of course, fear is just a form of attack and projection .... The more my fear intensified, the more fearful (ANGRY) this man reacted toward ME....Duh ... The projections between us just escalated to a heightened pitch ..

 

By summer, I saw that the situation was presenting me with a rare opportunity to heal old wounds -- this guy was just a different form of a pattern that kept popping up in my life. I could either heal it now or repeat the pattern over again in a different form later. So I began focusing on me, not him... I began getting clarity and, once I did, the attraction seemed to drop overnight.

 

Interestingly, now that I'm completely detached, MM is coming back around and actually saying hello and being friendly toward me ....opening doors for me and such .... A very far cry from his behavior last spring, summer and early fall, when he despised me and gave me the most vile, threatening looks I've ever seen on a human being!... It seems I'm projecting peace and he's responding in kind ... Of course, a part of me is cynical and says, "He didn't get a reaction from you with his anger, so now he's trying to manipulate you with kindness again..."

 

However, that's not the point. I don't feel threatened by his friendliness because I now know that it was never him that frightened me -- it was ME! I didn't trust myself to not cross boundaries with him, and that terrified me --- but I called my terror "HIM." You know? ... Now that I have no attraction to him, I can relax with him .... And he's showing up relaxed around me, in turn ... In fact, last month we experienced a miracle of sorts and I saw that we were both like children in this situation, as Katie says -- "innocent and blameless."

 

Do I want to be his buddy? No .... There are some serious issues there that still trigger me ... But I have compassion for him and myself now. I can see that our mutual unconscious pain crossed paths at one point in our lives. He was the angel that helped me see things clearly. And now it's done.

 

* * *

 

Here are some specific Katie things that helped me last spring when I and MM were both reacting intensely -- i.e., he was aggressive, and I was running away in fear ...

 

One thought I had: "He shouldn't be treating me this way, especially at work! It's incredibly inappropriate!" ... Then I could hear the words in the back of my mind: "Can you really that it's true?" ha! Because there he was -- giving me "THE LOOK" repeatedly, despite my story that he shouldn't. So clearly he WAS supposed to be giving me a hard time -- because that was the reality of the situation, no matter how I argued against it. Once I accepted that it was MM's "job" to act threatening toward me, it became much easier to deal with.

 

Also, when I experienced intense fear of MM, it helped when I would ask myself, "Who would you be without this thought right now?" Eventually, as I managed to loosen my judgment of him, the fear would loosen, too, and I became peaceful. I quickly saw that I was scaring myself half to death with my own insane projections about MM. In reality, he was giving me hateful, threatening looks -- but I was the one who kept replaying the scenes over & over in my mind, telling myself fearful stories about him and making myself sick. He didn't do that to me. I did. I had to take responsibility for that and pretending he was the only one victimizing me.

I was doing a pretty good job of it myself.

 

When I heard rumors that MM was having an affair with someone else at my work, I became indignant. I wanted to "save" the "poor girl" from the clutches of wicked MM. Then I realized: Whose business am I in? ... It sure as heck wasn't mine! So I quickly turned away from that.

 

I also remember Katie saying to people who engaged with folks who eventually hurt them: "So what did you want from them? There must have been some reason you agreed to get involved." ... and "Didn't you get an inner warning not to get involved? ... Yes? So why did you ignore it?"

 

And, finally, I saw a lot of unpleasant things about myself when I wrote down my judgments about MM. I'm too proud to list these, but I'm sure you get the picture .. It wasn't pretty ... lol

 

Sorry for this long post. (Now I can hear Katie say: "Really? Are you really sorry? HA!)

[Breezy Trousers]

I want to mention, too, that I learned a lot about abuse and personality disorders as a result of my experience with MM. I think these are legitimate patterns of behavior to be aware of.

 

The challenge is to discern these patterns with detachment, rather than villifying the people subject to those patterns. It can take a while to get to that point.

 

I know that some non-dualistic students would argue with me on this. I'll quote Katie here: OH WELL... Personally, I needed to identify certain patterns clearly before I could eventually detach from them. Only then was I ready to deal with forgiveness.

 

Of course, once you get clear, it appears others respond in kind. But it's a process and, in my case, it took 2 years.

[lovingwhatis]

Breezy, thank you sooo much for sharing! Can't tell you how cool it was to read this. Wow, since 2002 you've been doing the Work, that's remarkable! I assume by radical nondual forgiveness you mean the Course. I like that as well, and used to participate in a forum about it. The realizations you've had are pretty powerful. That's awesome that your husband has been into it as well, I can imagine your relationship has really been in a different space as a result.

 

When I read your response, and especially the part about xMM's personality disorder, I started having the same argument in my head that you said that people from a non duality perspective would have and I started laughing when I became aware that I was going it. Do you feel that this examination of his character has to do with your self-perception in any way?

 

That's the thing, I feel that many many teaching, and even places like LS are like their own bubble. Within it, things make sense. But ultimately they are a bubble. Even the most wonderful perception and truth can be co-opted by the mind and made into a belief system. That's my difficulty with Katie. I know that the Work works, but there is a belief system to buy into and at the end one ends up swapping belief systems.

 

I've been reading non duality teachers like Ramana and Goode what I love about those teachings is the inclusivity of it all. The "bad" thoughts and the "good" thoughts, they are all thoughts, all not real. Katie says that there is no need to question positive thoughts. I feel that one can hide behind the sense of security that positive thoughts provide.

 

But of course, anything I say here is just thoughts, so please feel free to disregard them.

 

I am very glad I got to discuss this with you. Thanks!

 

 

 

LovingWhatIs, I've been a fan of Byron Katie's since 2001. My husband and I did an Omega workshop with her (and Eckhart Tolle) in 2002.... I own about 500 hours of her doing the work, no kidding! There's really no need for therapy if you do The Work, IMO. (And, yes, this is just my opinion -- but only after spending lots of money on years of totally ineffective therapy with various people before 1997. None of it worked. Radical forgiveness was the only thing that healed me in the end.)

 

I've been a student of a non-dualistic forgiveness teaching since 1997, so Katie's work dovetailed perfectly with that. I was ripe for The Work when I encountered it in 2001.

 

This was perfect because shortly afterward I learned my husband had an affair -- so I got to practice it right away! ... My husband wasn't interested in my personal spiritual studies up until that point. It was my private interest, and I didn't feel the need to pull him into it anyway. However, after HIS affair, he expressed avid interest in joining me on this. I was suspicious. I thought he was just trying to get into my good graces -- i.e., "How convenient! He's betrayed me, and now we get to study radical forgiveness together! BS!" ... However, nearly a decade later, he's more passionate about this stuff than I am. The Work and similar stuff helped us heal a lot of hurt in our marriage. In fact, my husband works with guys recovering from sex addiction and often uses The Work as as helpful tool. (Many professional addiction counselors do as well.)

 

Then I -- Mrs. Goody Two Shoes! --was tempted with an affair between 2008-2010. For a long time I was wildly infactuated but also struggling to do the right thing. By early 2010 I began seeing the insanity of the situation and grew quite fearful of the MM in question. Of course, fear is just a form of attack and projection .... The more my fear intensified, the more fearful (ANGRY) this man reacted toward ME....Duh ... The projections between us just escalated to a heightened pitch ..

 

By summer, I saw that the situation was presenting me with a rare opportunity to heal old wounds -- this guy was just a different form of a pattern that kept popping up in my life. I could either heal it now or repeat the pattern over again in a different form later. So I began focusing on me, not him... I began getting clarity and, once I did, the attraction seemed to drop overnight.

 

Interestingly, now that I'm completely detached, MM is coming back around and actually saying hello and being friendly toward me ....opening doors for me and such .... A very far cry from his behavior last spring, summer and early fall, when he despised me and gave me the most vile, threatening looks I've ever seen on a human being!... It seems I'm projecting peace and he's responding in kind ... Of course, a part of me is cynical and says, "He didn't get a reaction from you with his anger, so now he's trying to manipulate you with kindness again..."

 

However, that's not the point. I don't feel threatened by his friendliness because I now know that it was never him that frightened me -- it was ME! I didn't trust myself to not cross boundaries with him, and that terrified me --- but I called my terror "HIM." You know? ... Now that I have no attraction to him, I can relax with him .... And he's showing up relaxed around me, in turn ... In fact, last month we experienced a miracle of sorts and I saw that we were both like children in this situation, as Katie says -- "innocent and blameless."

 

Do I want to be his buddy? No .... There are some serious issues there that still trigger me ... But I have compassion for him and myself now. I can see that our mutual unconscious pain crossed paths at one point in our lives. He was the angel that helped me see things clearly. And now it's done.

 

* * *

 

Here are some specific Katie things that helped me last spring when I and MM were both reacting intensely -- i.e., he was aggressive, and I was running away in fear ...

 

One thought I had: "He shouldn't be treating me this way, especially at work! It's incredibly inappropriate!" ... Then I could hear the words in the back of my mind: "Can you really that it's true?" ha! Because there he was -- giving me "THE LOOK" repeatedly, despite my story that he shouldn't. So clearly he WAS supposed to be giving me a hard time -- because that was the reality of the situation, no matter how I argued against it. Once I accepted that it was MM's "job" to act threatening toward me, it became much easier to deal with.

 

Also, when I experienced intense fear of MM, it helped when I would ask myself, "Who would you be without this thought right now?" Eventually, as I managed to loosen my judgment of him, the fear would loosen, too, and I became peaceful. I quickly saw that I was scaring myself half to death with my own insane projections about MM. In reality, he was giving me hateful, threatening looks -- but I was the one who kept replaying the scenes over & over in my mind, telling myself fearful stories about him and making myself sick. He didn't do that to me. I did. I had to take responsibility for that and pretending he was the only one victimizing me.

I was doing a pretty good job of it myself.

 

When I heard rumors that MM was having an affair with someone else at my work, I became indignant. I wanted to "save" the "poor girl" from the clutches of wicked MM. Then I realized: Whose business am I in? ... It sure as heck wasn't mine! So I quickly turned away from that.

 

I also remember Katie saying to people who engaged with folks who eventually hurt them: "So what did you want from them? There must have been some reason you agreed to get involved." ... and "Didn't you get an inner warning not to get involved? ... Yes? So why did you ignore it?"

 

And, finally, I saw a lot of unpleasant things about myself when I wrote down my judgments about MM. I'm too proud to list these, but I'm sure you get the picture .. It wasn't pretty ... lol

 

Sorry for this long post. (Now I can hear Katie say: "Really? Are you really sorry? HA!)

[Breezy Trousers]

Yes, you're right, it was the Course I've studied .... Good call!

 

You're a more rigorous thinker than I am. I'm lazy. I prefer to keep the parts of non-dualism that actually work in my life and cheerfully ignore what I can't relate to, and I don't analyze the thought system much beyond that ... For example, today, I can't honestly perceive XMM as a safe/stable person, so I don't force myself to. It's just as likely I will have my mind changed tomorrow anyway .... The nice thing is that when I accept where I am today, I learn to accept where everyone else is at, too (even XMM) ... I've been in lots of study groups over the years where the temptation is to sometimes attack/judge other students for how they approach forgiveness -- hilarious!! But very understandable when seen as just another trick of the ego to distract. After all, if it's truly all projection, what does it matter what other people think anyway? It's for us to learn, not "them."

 

I think discernment is very different from judgment. ("Keep an open mind but don't let your brains fall out" is one of my favorite quotes.) ... Ken Wapnick addresses this in his form vs. content book? ... Katie definitely addresses this, too, when she repeatedly confronts people who do not listen to their intuition and then later tell the story of how they were "victimized." She'll often say: "But didn't you have the thought NOT to get involved? ... And did you listen to it?" .. I think the purpose of these spiritual systems is to quiet the mind enough so we can get in touch with intuition, which transcends any thought system.

 

I agree with you that "one can hide behind the sense of security that positive thoughts provide." Carl Jung is quoted as saying, "One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious." ... Another way of saying it: "You can put loads and loads of icing on top of crap but it still stinks!”

 

 

Do you feel that this examination of his character has to do with your self-perception in any way?

 

For sure. I've had to explore my own narcissism while judging him for his, and it's made me painfully aware of where I need to grow ....

 

But of course, anything I say here is just thoughts, so please feel free to disregard them. !

 

Love that!

 

 

P.S. I like Ramana Maharshi, too. Some other interesting books I've read are Robert Adams' "Silence of the Heart," books by Poonja and Joan Tollifson, Suzanne Segal's "Collision with the Infinite," "The Lazy Man's Guide to Enlightenment," and former Catholic nun Bernadette Roberts' "The Experience of No-Self."

Edited January 22, 2011 by Breezy Trousers

[lovingwhatis]

Yes, you're right, it was the Course I've studied .... Good call!

 

You're a more rigorous thinker than I am. I'm lazy. I prefer to keep the parts of non-dualism that actually work in my life and cheerfully ignore what I can't relate to, and I don't analyze the thought system much beyond that ... For example, today, I can't honestly perceive XMM as a safe/stable person, so I don't force myself to. It's just as likely I will have my mind changed tomorrow anyway .... The nice thing is that when I accept where I am today, I learn to accept where everyone else is at, too (even XMM) ... I've been in lots of study groups over the years where the temptation is to sometimes attack/judge other students for how they approach forgiveness -- hilarious!! But very understandable when seen as just another trick of the ego to distract. After all, if it's truly all projection, what does it matter what other people think anyway? It's for us to learn, not "them."

 

I think discernment is very different from judgment. ("Keep an open mind but don't let your brains fall out" is one of my favorite quotes.) ... Ken Wapnick addresses this in his form vs. content book? ... Katie definitely addresses this, too, when she repeatedly confronts people who do not listen to their intuition and then later tell the story of how they were "victimized." She'll often say: "But didn't you have the thought NOT to get involved? ... And did you listen to it?" .. I think the purpose of these spiritual systems is to quiet the mind enough so we can get in touch with intuition, which transcends any thought system.

 

I agree with you that "one can hide behind the sense of security that positive thoughts provide." Carl Jung is quoted as saying, "One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious." ... Another way of saying it: "You can put loads and loads of icing on top of crap but it still stinks!”

 

 

 

 

For sure. I've had to explore my own narcissism while judging him for his, and it's made me painfully aware of where I need to grow ....

 

 

 

Love that!

 

 

P.S. I like Ramana Maharshi, too. Some other interesting books I've read are Robert Adams' "Silence of the Heart," books by Poonja and Joan Tollifson, Suzanne Segal's "Collision with the Infinite," "The Lazy Man's Guide to Enlightenment," and former Catholic nun Bernadette Roberts' "The Experience of No-Self."

 

LOL, thank you, breezy! Rigorous, that's a kind way to put it, lately I've come to that point of the seeker who wants to stop seeking.. Of course, easier said than done. There are incredible guides on the way, thanks for the book suggestions, I will look for them on google. I knew of the Suzanne Segal book. What she is describing is both beautiful, and in her case disturbing. I have doubts whether one can abide in that state constantly. In fact, I recently got in contact with a book author, and while his books describe things really eloquently, in my experience with him, he has not "arrived" there as he implies. It was disappointing because a lot of experiences resulted for me from reading the book. I felt that he simply didn't walk the talk.. But so do I, there are moments of total silence, and there are moments of violent pain-bodies... Shorter lived, but intense nonetheless.

 

You seem to be experiencing similar things. I can see you've experienced lots of transformations and are in a good space in life. You also realize the trap of the ego that makes something supposedly "good" into the new thing to attach to. I also love what Katie was saying about the intuition, I certainly had it, and ignored it at the time. I wonder though about the discernment bit. That's been one of my biggest qualms with Katie, ACIM, and even Tolle. By describing what the thing to move away from is (judgment for instance), there is a judgment on judgment! Contradiction. Discernment to me is judgment, and when I hear Katie in videos, I feel that she judges. You say that xMM has abusive personality. I know what you mean by saying that understanding this has brought you to peace. Would you, at a certain point, be willing to let that thought drop?

 

A friend had this poem on her fridge for a while, and I didn't get it at the time. Now I feel that I understand it. It talks about allowing it all to be, even the "violent" emotions, and just letting it pass through. I still habitually resist.

 

This being human is a guest house.

Every morning a new arrival.

 

A joy, a depression, a meanness,

some momentary awareness comes

As an unexpected visitor.

 

Welcome and entertain them all!

Even if they're a crowd of sorrows,

who violently sweep your house

empty of its furniture,

still treat each guest honorably.

He may be clearing you out

for some new delight.

 

The dark thought, the shame, the malice,

meet them at the door laughing,

and invite them in.

 

Be grateful for whoever comes,

because each has been sent

as a guide from beyond.

 

From Essential Rumi

by Coleman Barks

 

P.S. It would have been great to speak with you on the phone! I definitely appreciate our correspondence. I also wrote a long post in "Who pines more" if you feel inclined to read it.

 

Thanks!