he emailed me back

[northern_sky]

in response to the email I sent him with some career advice right before he moved a few days ago.

 

Looks like he didn't find LS, so that's a relief. An earlier email said he had been running around the city like crazy for the last few days (just moved) without internet and would write more soon. After reading it, I think he does value me as a friend; he's just a bit neurotic and confused in general. But at least it sounds like the affection wasn't *entirely* one-sided. I hope I can move on from this.

 

Heya,

 

Well, it took an extra two days but I think I'm finally equipped to start digging out a trench of normalcy here in my new apartment. Whew, I am so done with driving & packing.

 

I've actually heard of that [a book I suggested he read] before -- and I saw a TED talk from that guy too (AND heard an NPR version of it just last week...):

 

**pasted link here***

 

Anyway. Thank you for expanding on your thoughts from Friday night. It may sound oxymoronic, but you are actually a really great communicator -- especially about your difficulties in communicating things? I can also understand how I made you nervous. It's very, *very* hard for me to express affection in appropriate ways, but it is there. This is something I'm working on and, like you, I'm surprisingly good at it compared to just a few years ago (it was not a pretty sight back in the day).

 

I do like you, and I apologize for the laborious nature of that expression (example: I wrote and deleted about 12 sentences before this one was finished). You're right that I need to invest in finding the right rhythm here in the city and not getting bogged down in my own worries about everything. It may sound corny, but I'm looking for those last pieces of my "identity" and learning how to be passionate about what I'm doing (and not do things I'm not passionate about) is one of them.

 

I've been painstakingly assembling that identity since I was old enough to vote and one of the pieces I needed to find was, at least for the last 2-3 years, "dating practice." That's why the "slut" comment brought me down so much: there have been times in my life when I'd be unfazed by the label, but now, and from someone who I care about, it was harder to hear. Harder not because "being a slut" feels inherently negative -- I've not lied to nor hurt anyone extraneously among those relationships -- but because its a part of my identity that I'm ready to move on from.

 

Thank you for caring and writing so much to encourage me. It means a lot, and I know it's hard for you (like me) to put your feelings out there. Keep me up to date on your film (trailer now, I guess) and I'll let you know when I'm ready to rave about [the book I gave him] -- I suspect I'll have a similar reaction to yours (great minds think alike and all that).

 

Talk to you soon,

XXXX

Edited January 13, 2011 by northern_sky

[Star Gazer]

I'm confused. You were giving him career advice? And encouraging him? I don't understand that...?

 

His writing style is so similar to yours, it's almost eery.

 

I sense you're going to latch on to him and his words from this email.

[northern_sky]

I'm confused. You were giving him career advice? And encouraging him? I don't understand that...?

 

His writing style is so similar to yours, it's almost eery.

 

I sense you're going to latch on to him and his words from this email.

 

Yeah, I was encouraging him because I felt when we said goodbye I had said a few confusing things that might have hurt him. I wanted to leave him feeling good as he moved to NY. Why is that weird?

 

Actually, reading this kind of depressed me more than anything, because it reminded me of him again when I was very slowly starting to move forward. I am at least relieved he didn't see my LS account. I hope I can put him behind me now.

Edited January 13, 2011 by northern_sky

[welikeincrowds]

That's why the "slut" comment brought me down so much: there have been times in my life when I'd be unfazed by the label, but now, and from someone who I care about, it was harder to hear.

 

and from someone who I care about

 

who

 

whom

 

whatever dude, this guy sucks

[northern_sky]

whom

 

 

 

ha, that's so petty.

 

EDIT: I guess you're being sarcastic. I can never tell with you.

 

whatever dude, this guy sucks

 

how so?

Edited January 13, 2011 by northern_sky

[welikeincrowds]

how so?

 

Who/whom. It's unacceptable and a LAUNCHable offense. I think my standards are reasonable here.

 

But seriously, I don't know much about him. I'm unclear from the accounts you've given what he's really like as I haven't read them carefully enough and you're quite a biased narrator.

 

I can say, however: from a subjective point of view relative to you, he sucks. Yet I know how hard it is to let go. No creative wants to let go of a good idea.

[Star Gazer]

Yeah, I was encouraging him because I felt when we said goodbye I had said a few confusing things that might have hurt him. I wanted to leave him feeling good as he moved to NY. Why is that weird?

 

I'm confused why you were giving him career advice. I didn't want to bring up your educational predicament and history, but you giving him career advice seems a little...backwards. Particularly since you claim to be relying on him as a business contact for when you eventually move there.

[northern_sky]

Who/whom. It's unacceptable and a LAUNCHable offense. I think my standards are reasonable here.

 

But seriously, I don't know much about him. I'm unclear from the accounts you've given what he's really like as I haven't read them carefully enough and you're quite a biased narrator.

 

I can say, however: from a subjective point of view relative to you, he sucks. Yet I know how hard it is to let go. No creative wants to let go of a good idea.

 

That's true. I don't think he sucks, though. He's just not right for me. It's been hard for me to let him go since I haven't found any other guys where I live to WHOM I can relate, but I'm sure I'll have more opportunities in NY to find likeminded folks. Although that dating scene presents its own unique problems...

[northern_sky]

I'm confused why you were giving him career advice. I didn't want to bring up your educational predicament and history, but you giving him career advice seems a little...backwards. Particularly since you claim to be relying on him as a business contact for when you eventually move there.

 

Oh come on, Star. That's kind of a low blow and it doesn't have much to do with the topic of this thread...

 

He confided in me and asked for my advice about his future, so I gave it. Also, he has told me several times he really values my opinion and takes it seriously.

Edited January 13, 2011 by northern_sky

[Star Gazer]

Oh come on, Star. That's kind of a low blow and it doesn't have much to do with the topic of this thread...

 

How is a statement of fact a low blow? No, it's not a low blow. You just wrote about almost getting expelled for the second time, and he's already moving along (literally and figuratively) in his career. I found it weird that you'd be voluntarily giving him career advice given your respective statuses career-wise. It would be like me giving advice to a judge on, well, how to be a judge. I'm behind in the curve. He doesn't need that advice from you... and if anything, you're the one who's been saying you wanted to maintain contact with him because you needed him as a professional contact, not the other way around.

 

The point I was making was that you obviously had an ulterior motive in writing him to give him advice he doesn't need. What's the purpose in doing so, to continue unnecessary contact? To get a response from him that you can analyze? To position yourself as this awesome, altruistic person who only has his best interests at heart? To make him like you? Yes, yes, yes, yes... I think, anyway.

[Star Gazer]

He confided in me and asked for my advice about his future, so I gave it.

 

Conveniently added. There was no mention in this thread or any others of him asking you for help or reaching out to you in any way. Only you reaching out to him, and him responding.

[northern_sky]

How is a statement of fact a low blow? No, it's not a low blow. You just wrote about almost getting expelled for the second time, and he's already moving along (literally and figuratively) in his career. I found it weird that you'd be voluntarily giving him career advice given your respective statuses career-wise. It would be like me giving advice to a judge on, well, how to be a judge. I'm behind in the curve. He doesn't need that advice from you... and if anything, you're the one who's been saying you wanted to maintain contact with him because you needed him as a professional contact, not the other way around.

 

The point I was making was that you obviously had an ulterior motive in writing him to give him advice he doesn't need. What's the purpose in doing so, to continue unnecessary contact? To get a response from him that you can analyze? To position yourself as this awesome, altruistic person who only has his best interests at heart? To make him like you? Yes, yes, yes, yes... I think, anyway.

 

As I wrote above he ASKED me for advice, and I gave it. But I felt like I had said some stupid things that night, so I wanted to clarify what I meant with the email. I know he is extremely sensitive to criticism, and I was worried that I had pushed him away inadvertently so I wanted to clear that up. My motive was to maintain the friendship, and make sure I hadn't offended him. You may not think my opinion has any merit, but he obviously does.

[northern_sky]

Conveniently added. There was no mention in this thread or any others of him asking you for help or reaching out to you in any way. Only you reaching out to him, and him responding.

 

now you're questioning my honesty?

 

the last time we met, and I think I wrote this here, I said to him: "you shouldn't take my opinion so seriously," and he responded: "but your opinion means a lot to me, and I think it deserves to be taken seriously."

 

If I haven't mentioned this it's because I didn't feel like him asking me for advice was relevant, but he has done so several times.

 

Just because I don't rehash every tiny detail of our interactions doesn't mean I'm lying. Sheesh.

[welikeincrowds]

The point I was making was that you obviously had an ulterior motive in writing him to give him advice he doesn't need. What's the purpose in doing so, to continue unnecessary contact? To get a response from him that you can analyze? To position yourself as this awesome, altruistic person who only has his best interests at heart? To make him like you? Yes, yes, yes, yes... I think, anyway.

 

You are ferocious.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but your conclusions don't hold much weight without seeing the email she wrote him.

 

We don't know what advice she gave. It was probably in aspects of professionalism that she does know about, and have nothing to do with her struggles.

 

We all posture ourselves. Most communication between people has an "ulterior motive," in the sense that it accomplishes more than one thing, and it's not always obvious what. How many ways are there to say "I love you"? Most ways don't use the word "love". Most ways don't use words.

 

It's also not always necessary to discuss the subtext. Regardless of who benefits, it was probably all done in good will. She wants him to leave on a good note. That's a good note for both of them to hear. The most freeing thing one can do is forgive. How many ways are there to say "I forgive you"?

 

EDIT: One can unravel all sorts of conflicts and contradictions out of a complex person, from even the most innocuous of actions. That's why it's important to choose the threads wisely. I'm not convinced this was one of them.

[Star Gazer]

You are ferocious.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but your conclusions don't hold much weight without seeing the email she wrote him.

 

Roar.

 

I don't have to see the email she wrote him to see her motive as clear as day. She wrote with the intent of maintaining contact, latching on, keeping him communicating with her, so that he won't forget about her, etc., etc., etc. That's all that I meant by it. It's not good for her emotional well-being to continue "poking the beast," so to speak. She needed a fix, she got it. She'll need another one eventually, will poke him, he'll respond, and we'll get another thread.

 

For some inexplicable reason, she's hell bent on keeping the guy in her life. After all the nasty, horrible things she's said about him, and after her own descriptions of being so on the edge because of him (pretty severe, to the point her own posts were deleted, I will PM you their substance) and other things, he's the last thing she should be obsessing over.

 

I mean, even assuming arguendo that he's actually the bees knees and the absolute best sh*t on earth, these communications make her feel like utter crap. So why initiate these communications? Or even engage him?

 

A toddler only has to touch a hot stove once to know they shouldn't put their hand on it again. Ya know?

 

EDIT: One can unravel all sorts of conflicts and contradictions out of a complex person, from even the most innocuous of actions. That's why it's important to choose the threads wisely. I'm not convinced this was one of them.

 

Choose threads wisely? This is LS, dude. I respond to the top of the "Newest Posts" link... there's no equation I apply to what I respond to.

 

I honestly give up though. If choosing threads is the lesson of the day, shouldn't choosing to post them count as well? The cycle of paralysis by analysis and obsession will continue so long as she continues to...well...analyze and obsess over every single word she's sent by a dude who in the grand scheme of things shouldn't matter at all.

[welikeincrowds]

Choose threads wisely? This is LS, dude.

 

Yeah, that was supposed to be a thread metaphor, like unraveling thread, or. Not literally a thread on LS. Clumsy writing....

[Star Gazer]

Ohhh. Duh!

 

Yeah, that was supposed to be a thread metaphor, like unraveling thread, or. Not literally a thread on LS. Clumsy writing....

 

Or clumsy understanding...

[BobSacamento]

Roar.

 

I don't have to see the email she wrote him to see her motive as clear as day. She wrote with the intent of maintaining contact, latching on, keeping him communicating with her, so that he won't forget about her, etc., etc., etc. That's all that I meant by it. It's not good for her emotional well-being to continue "poking the beast," so to speak. She needed a fix, she got it. She'll need another one eventually, will poke him, he'll respond, and we'll get another thread.

 

For some inexplicable reason, she's hell bent on keeping the guy in her life. After all the nasty, horrible things she's said about him, and after her own descriptions of being so on the edge because of him (pretty severe, to the point her own posts were deleted, I will PM you their substance) and other things, he's the last thing she should be obsessing over.

 

I mean, even assuming arguendo that he's actually the bees knees and the absolute best sh*t on earth, these communications make her feel like utter crap. So why initiate these communications? Or even engage him?

 

A toddler only has to touch a hot stove once to know they shouldn't put their hand on it again. Ya know?

 

 

 

Choose threads wisely? This is LS, dude. I respond to the top of the "Newest Posts" link... there's no equation I apply to what I respond to.

 

I honestly give up though. If choosing threads is the lesson of the day, shouldn't choosing to post them count as well? The cycle of paralysis by analysis and obsession will continue so long as she continues to...well...analyze and obsess over every single word she's sent by a dude who in the grand scheme of things shouldn't matter at all.

 

Your posts are very intriguing I must say. Maybe it's the lack of respect in them or just over abundance of judgment that has me interested. Or maybe I just don't get it. My main questions: why are you here and how are you trying to help?

 

Free country I guess.

[ConflictedGuy27]

hey northern,

 

if I was your beau and found out you were posting personal emails (albeit sanitized) I wrote you as a public discussion topic, I'd be a bit off put; to say the least.

 

aren't you concerned he'll google some random sentence of his email and be linked straight to this thread? -,-"

[northern_sky]

I think it would be more productive for you to examine your own motivations rather than speculating on mine in an email I wrote to a guy that you haven't read. I didn't look at your last three posts in this thread, because I can predict what they will consist of: a series of underhanded insults, condescending remarks about me veiled in altruism, mixed in with some self ego props and probably a dash of buttering-up directed at other members. As many times as this behavior is pointed out (and not just by me), it never seems to change. Please stop thread-jacking. Back on ignore.

Edited January 13, 2011 by northern_sky

[BobSacamento]

You know, Bob... you're a smart man. Really. Like so many others here, I've been sincerely trying and trying for years to help Shadow and all her namesakes. Thing is, I constantly fail. We all do. There are plentiful reasons for that, but unfortunately if I repeat them or any history that led us to where we are now, I'll likely find myself in trouble. *sigh* There is a small handful of stronger people here, who keep plugging along despite constantly hitting a brick wall. They are all pretty admirable in that regard. Admittedly, I don't have so much patience. For me, it's really, really frustrating!

 

You're so very right. I absolutely do place judgment and lack a certain level of respect for certain repeated behaviors where no real change or progress is ever made, particularly when there's so much lip service given to making that change...coupled with so many "I'm so miserable, this is my last post on LS" type posts, followed shortly by what we see here. Just another day.

 

I feel like we're all watching a hamster in a plastic ball spin around the floor, when we know the only way the hamster will get where it needs to go (up the stairs into Little Bobby's room where its cage/obstacle course and critically needed food/water are), is to get itself out of the damn ball and crawl upwards on the carpet. People here have done everything they can to remove the hamster from the ball, but said hamster literally spreads it's little legs out so far and latches on to the edges of the hole with it's delicate yet strong little feet so that you can't pull it out (and often bites you in the process)...or, it finds its way back into the damn ball, somehow, when you're not looking. And there it goes again, spinning around and around, all over the floor, tripping you up underfoot, along with everyone else in the room. Around and around.

 

Thing is, progress can't happen without concrete change, even if in "baby steps," as Shadow advocates to others. That's what I believe, anyway. Thing is, there's no baby steps here. Just spinning around in the ball.

 

I can't speak to her sincerity in desiring to change. But in my heart of hearts I believe everyone can change for the better and use their mistakes as learning opportunities to better themselves and their situation*, and Shadow is no exception. But she, like anyone else, has to want to change. And if she doesn't want to change, there's nothing any of us can do but stand by and watch as she do the same thing over and over.

 

Many LSers see Shadow and her threads as pure entertainment. I'm sure you know the type of entertainment I'm referring to. But I really don't. I'm fascinated at times, but for the most part, I find myself yelling at the screen, saying, "Shadow, why are you doing this to yourself?!?! Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and move forward!! Quit the woah is me stuff!! You can do this!! Why aren't you!?!"

 

I know it's been said by many, but it's almost as though Shadow enjoys or derives some odd pleasure from her angst. For some reason I have yet to figure out, watching Shadow, someone who's so bright and has so much potential, repeat the same patterns over and over again and not make steps to change just really, really, REALLY bothers me. And clearly, it shows. I can admit that.

 

Somewhere along the line, especially in the past couple weeks, I realized there's a lot more going on here than just someone who's stuck in a rut. I think there's something going on here which is beyond most of LSers' 'expertise' in interpersonal relationships. I won't even begin to pretend I have any idea what that is, but it just all feels bigger than anything any of us are really capable of handling or helping with. If it weren't, our years of help would have done some good by now... I'd hope, anyway?

 

That's the very long answer your question. It was always my intent to help, but obviously I'm not helping here. So, I'll move on to someone more... absorbent.

 

* My mistake was trying too hard for too long, when it wasn't helping any. I'll take this as a hard-earned learning opportunity to wish Shadow the best and seek out other threads to respond to in the future.

 

I was getting the feeling that you were frustrated just from your responses. I just wanted to make you aware of how you were coming across to me. Personally, if someone shows little respect for me I have a very hard time listening to anything they have to say. It causes me to go into defense mode. In the end, that really doesn't help anyone. I will say, I commend you for trying.

[northern_sky]

back to the op, I still kind of wonder if he actually values/cares about me as a friend or his warmth in the email is a gesture rooted in pity and guilt. I guess the only way I'll ever sort of know is to not contact him again and if he initiates in the future.

[xpaperxcutx]

back to the op, I still kind of wonder if he actually values/cares about me as a friend or his warmth in the email is a gesture rooted in pity and guilt. I guess the only way I'll ever sort of know is to not contact him again and if he initiates in the future.

 

N_S, you never sound okay when it comes to just being friends with guys you like. If you have underlying motives to remain friends, my advice would be to run.

[northern_sky]

N_S, you never sound okay when it comes to just being friends with guys you like. If you have underlying motives to remain friends, my advice would be to run.

 

that's something i'm mulling over right now, but at this point it seems like the pros of staying his friend outweigh the cons. this is the only time i've truly felt like this *might* be the case with a guy. i'm not ruling out the possibility that you're right and it's a bad idea, but i don't want to drop him as a friend just yet.

 

with my ex, we had very little in common, he bored me, but i wanted to stay his friend because at the time he was my only connection in town. i was scared of being alone. bad reason.

 

We J, there is more substance to give up. It's not often that I feel a connection with somebody, and I don't have an easy time making friends. We have a strong intellectual connection, a lot in common, he's extremely helpful and generous when it comes to anything practical and he'll be a great business contact.

 

since he's moved I won't see him for awhile anyway, so I have some time to change my mind. when I move to NY, if I still feel like I'm really into him romantically, I'll probably be uncomfortable with staying friends. I guess for now the best thing I can do is to put him out of my mind so i can move on.

[BobSacamento]

back to the op, I still kind of wonder if he actually values/cares about me as a friend or his warmth in the email is a gesture rooted in pity and guilt. I guess the only way I'll ever sort of know is to not contact him again and if he initiates in the future.

 

They say if you want a friend, be a friend. I would think if you want to know if he value/cares for you, don't be afraid to show that you value/care for him.