paddington bear Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 I've been mulling over this over the whole holiday period and mentioned it in some other thread and obviously, am still mulling. I've had a few people now say to me that I come across as independent with a strong personality and that guys might feel too intimidated, or feel that with me they can't be 'the man' (i.e. feel like they are more intelligent, needed, the funny one etc.). The thing is, I've been single for so long that I've got used to doing everything for myself, amusing myself on my own, meeting new people, home repairs. All of it, because there simply has not been a partner there for years and years and so I've had to. Thing is, in reality I'm not sorted, I'm not independent, I'm not smiley, happy fun girl all the time. I'm sensitive and emotional and actually, I need someone who I can lean on. I need someone who can look after me to some degree. A visual representation: resting my head against a strong shoulder and being given a hug. However, I always end up being the strong shoulder, the guys I meet (and am attracted to) lean heavily on me, see me as some great support, while I don't get the same back. I feel more and more like how I project myself to people is a false representation of who I really am. That I am not being authentic, or that my vulnerable side just doesn't come across at all and guys get the wrong message "what could I give to her? She doesn't need me". I suppose my question is, how do you show your vulnerable side without coming across as desperate and needy? And indeed, is being vulnerable, attractive? (People say that others are attracted to confident people...)
musemaj11 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Men have been socially conditioned that women want a man who is more than her. So a man wont even try if he doesnt think he is good enough for her even if the woman thinks he is good enough because he just cant read her mind. This is the problem with accomplished and independent women. They fail to understand men's point of view. What you need to do is not lowering yourself for a man. What you need to do is meet him half way and let him know that he is good enough for you. Its just like when a woman discounts herself because she thinks she isnt attractive enough to have a shot at the handsome guy she is interested in and she isnt going to do anything unless the guy starts giving positive signals first. By the way, you want someone who is attracted to your strength, not your weakness. You want someone who admires you, not patronizes you.
Untouchable_Fire Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 I've been mulling over this over the whole holiday period and mentioned it in some other thread and obviously, am still mulling. I've had a few people now say to me that I come across as independent with a strong personality and that guys might feel too intimidated, or feel that with me they can't be 'the man' (i.e. feel like they are more intelligent, needed, the funny one etc.). When a woman shows flashes of vulnerability it often triggers the male instinct to be protective. You can do this in flashes. My GF does this really well naturally, because her family puts a lot of responsibility on her. Most of the time she is really strong but sometimes I can see how the pressure affects her. It makes me consistently want to help her out.
Author paddington bear Posted January 8, 2011 Author Posted January 8, 2011 Thanks for the reply. Any suggestions as to what this 'meeting half way' involves. How to let a guy know that he is good enough? Particularly on first meeting (seeing that first impressions last...)
Author paddington bear Posted January 8, 2011 Author Posted January 8, 2011 Untouchable - but did this come across when you first met her? Or what was your impression of your girlfriend? Did she seem strong when you met her, and now you only see the vulnerable side? I kind of want to solve this on a 'first impression' basis. This is where I fail. I think most people already in a relationship of course show more sides to their personality.
musemaj11 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Thanks for the reply. Any suggestions as to what this 'meeting half way' involves. How to let a guy know that he is good enough? Particularly on first meeting (seeing that first impressions last...) Show that you are interested and indirectly let him know that you are fine with the things that he might feel insecure about. One of my buddies confided to me about a date he went on a couple weeks ago. He told me that he thought he blew it. I asked him why thought so and his reasoning was simply that during the date she brought up topics that he had little knowledge about and he assumed that she probably thought he wasnt intelligent enough for her so he just discounted himself and stopped pursuing anything further. You see, that is how fragile the male ego is. Its not because we are egotistical. Its because we are socially conditioned that women want men who are more than us. And I have to say that generally it is the truth.
SteveC80 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Men have been socially conditioned that women want a man who is more than her. So a man wont even try if he doesnt think he is good enough for her even if the woman thinks he is good enough because he just cant read her mind. This is the problem with accomplished and independent women. They fail to understand men's point of view. What you need to do is not lowering yourself for a man. What you need to do is meet him half way and let him know that he is good enough for you. Its just like when a woman discounts herself because she thinks she isnt attractive enough to have a shot at the handsome guy she is interested in and she isnt going to do anything unless the guy starts giving positive signals first. By the way, you want someone who is attracted to your strength, not your weakness. You want someone who admires you, not patronizes you. women do want a man better then them
SteveC80 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Show that you are interested and indirectly let him know that you are fine with the things that he might feel insecure about. One of my buddies confided to me about a date he went on a couple weeks ago. He told me that he thought he blew it. I asked him why thought so and his reasoning was simply that during the date she brought up topics that he had little knowledge about and he assumed that she probably thought he wasnt intelligent enough for her so he just discounted himself and stopped pursuing anything further. You see, that is how fragile the male ego is. Its not because we are egotistical. Its because we are socially conditioned that women want men who are more than us. And I have to say that generally it is the truth. his instincts are right i have a female friend who met a good guy but after 2 dates declared shes smarter then him and left as a man you need more status and more or equal education or you have no shot
musemaj11 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 women do want a man better then them Thats what I said.
zengirl Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 I think for a first date, "soft" is more the word to focus on than vulnerable. I don't think anyone wants to see the issues---they just don't want to see the big, hard shell we use to protect ourselves. I don't think men want a girl who is a vulnerable mess from the beginnng, but as they get to know you, they do want to feel they can both (a) see the real you, and nobody is really strong all the time, and (b) help/contribute/take care of you in some way. "B" is only for the good guys who seek a LTR though, and that's just been my experience. I might have a tendency to date care-takers though; I am a care-taker myself, but I cannot do it in a vaccum, without getting burned out as many do, so I tend to look for others like me. So not 100% sure on "B" But I definitely think most men who want a serious LTR are looking for someone who has their **** somewhat together in the beginning. That's not to say they want a perfect, shiny, happy, strong person all the time. But healthy people don't go around showing their vulnerability on a first date, normally. (Which doesn't mean you can't still be "soft" but I mean they don't share all their problems, etc.) And, honestly, I look for something similar in a man---enough health, self-sufficiency, and strength to 'hold it together' well in the beginning, but some vulnerability and realness underneath. Though I do think men and women show vulnerability in different ways.
Author paddington bear Posted January 8, 2011 Author Posted January 8, 2011 So, women do want a man better than them men want a woman that won't crush their ego I've been to job interviews over the years and been told I was over-qualified and the employer is afraid that the work won't be challenging enough. I always disagree. They are always right, I do get bored it is not challenging enough. Perhaps it is the same. Even if I think the guy is good enough for me, if he doesn't, firstly nothing will happen, secondly, perhaps the guy is right and yes, eventually I'll realise that no, he's not good enough, like the job situation above.... I suppose, one has to find a man who is equal or above you in terms of confidence, status, intelligence etc. Or at least believes he is. (I've been on the other side of this, by the way, met guys who I just thought were too amazing for me to dare even think that they would want me)
Author paddington bear Posted January 8, 2011 Author Posted January 8, 2011 Zengirl, thanks for that. Yes, soft is a much more appropriate word - more what I meant, rather than vulnerable in terms of dumping all your insecurities and issues on someone. I'm not sure I have a hard shell around me, maybe I do. I'm a pretty open person, so then others open up...and that's where the caretaking thing comes in. Guys think 'great! I've someone who will listen to all my problems' and I misinterpret it as me and him getting emotionally intimate, when in fact we are not, as it is one-sided.
musemaj11 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 So, women do want a man better than them men want a woman that won't crush their ego I've been to job interviews over the years and been told I was over-qualified and the employer is afraid that the work won't be challenging enough. I always disagree. They are always right, I do get bored it is not challenging enough. Perhaps it is the same. Even if I think the guy is good enough for me, if he doesn't, firstly nothing will happen, secondly, perhaps the guy is right and yes, eventually I'll realise that no, he's not good enough, like the job situation above.... I suppose, one has to find a man who is equal or above you in terms of confidence, status, intelligence etc. Or at least believes he is. (I've been on the other side of this, by the way, met guys who I just thought were too amazing for me to dare even think that they would want me) So you have found your answer now?
Author paddington bear Posted January 8, 2011 Author Posted January 8, 2011 So you have found your answer now? Ha ha! Yeah! So, guess I have to go for over-confident, overbearing, alpha-male types, who think they are god's gift to women, who wouldn't be in the least bit intimidated by little ol' me (I would hate a man like this..) Okcupid has just told me that I'm in the upper half of the attractiveness scale (I'm sure this is a marketing ploy, but I am ignoring this fact and choosing to believe it - the okcupid algorhythm thinks I'm hot!)
zengirl Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Ha ha! Yeah! So, guess I have to go for over-confident, overbearing, alpha-male types, who think they are god's gift to women, who wouldn't be in the least bit intimidated by little ol' me (I would hate a man like this..) Okcupid has just told me that I'm in the upper half of the attractiveness scale (I'm sure this is a marketing ploy, but I am ignoring this fact and choosing to believe it - the okcupid algorhythm thinks I'm hot!) They don't send it to everyone, and they base it on how many views you get, how many of those people favorite/rate highly/message you, and how long people stay on your profile, and if they return. Maybe some other things too. I don't think women look for man who are "better" than them or all men are lugging around egos the size of Texas that need tending (particularly egos bigger than they deserve). I've always wanted a man who was good at something and fantastic in his own right, in a different way than me (some common interests of course, but also some different skills), and I've always brought my own set of awesomeness to the table. I think healthy people look for partners who are equal, not in a calculating way, like there's some sort of point-scale rubric for being a human being, but in an overall, complement each other sort of way.
musemaj11 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Ha ha! Yeah! So, guess I have to go for over-confident, overbearing, alpha-male types, who think they are god's gift to women, who wouldn't be in the least bit intimidated by little ol' me (I would hate a man like this..) Well, if you are unwilling to be with someone who is less than you in anyway then I guess thats the only choice for you.
Emilia Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Ha ha! Yeah! So, guess I have to go for over-confident, overbearing, alpha-male types, who think they are god's gift to women, who wouldn't be in the least bit intimidated by little ol' me (I would hate a man like this..) Okcupid has just told me that I'm in the upper half of the attractiveness scale (I'm sure this is a marketing ploy, but I am ignoring this fact and choosing to believe it - the okcupid algorhythm thinks I'm hot!) yes just got that okcupid email this morning myself. makes no difference whether true or not, online dating is not easy. to your original message: I have similar issues in terms of finding a good long term partner but I don't think I have to chose between a waste-of-space unemployed weakling or an arrogant 'alpha male' (hate that expression). I don't think it's helpful to pigeon hole people too much. I know men that have strong character, appreciate a good woman, know how to show love and are geat company. Unfortunately most of those are married or otherwise unavailable but they are around, you just have to keep searching. The important thing is to be yourself, to be likeable, personable and friendly, to show your appreciation when the man you are dating does something for you and you will find the right partner. Don't be too hard to love, too judgemental, too hard nut to crack.
Author paddington bear Posted January 8, 2011 Author Posted January 8, 2011 Well, if you are unwilling to be with someone who is less than you in anyway then I guess thats the only choice for you. No, not unwilling. This is the problem. I am very willing, but I don't think this willingness is coming across, or it gets misinterpreted. Just thinking...so, if I've met numerous guys who think they are not good enough for me, or feel insecure or whatever, so they don't approach or approach and then get scared and I try to show them that I like them, don't be scared little boy (and then promptly get friendzoned by them...). Then this type, the one who can't take an ego-blow, or assumes wrongly that I am more confident than I am, is obviously totally, utterly wrong for me. It just doesn't work. There have been these guys, as above, but there are also men that I think are so amazing and out of my league that they cause me to totally panic. I can't speak, fumble my words, make an idiot of myself because I am so overwhelmed by their amazingness. With these men, I do the exact same as guys do with me. I don't flirt, don't make a move, nothing, for fear of getting a horrible ego-crushing rejection and feeling not good enough for them. But maybe...(brain working overtime here...) I should be going for the ones that I think are too amazing for me to get, the ones that really scare me. That way, the dynamic is already set that the guy is on a pedestal of sorts, that I look up to him and therefore I don't have to allay his fears that I will reject him, nor do I have to pretend that I am vulnerable/soft because I will genuinely be like that. Perhaps this horrible dynamic might change (or I get rejected and all my fears about not being good enough come to pass )
jean-luc sisko Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 I think you may subconsciously attract these men. is there anything you think you do that leads to this?
Emilia Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 There have been these guys, as above, but there are also men that I think are so amazing and out of my league that they cause me to totally panic. I can't speak, fumble my words, make an idiot of myself because I am so overwhelmed by their amazingness. With these men, I do the exact same as guys do with me. I don't flirt, don't make a move, nothing, for fear of getting a horrible ego-crushing rejection and feeling not good enough for them. But maybe...(brain working overtime here...) I should be going for the ones that I think are too amazing for me to get, the ones that really scare me. That way, the dynamic is already set that the guy is on a pedestal of sorts, that I look up to him and therefore I don't have to allay his fears that I will reject him, nor do I have to pretend that I am vulnerable/soft because I will genuinely be like that. Perhaps this horrible dynamic might change (or I get rejected and all my fears about not being good enough come to pass ) ok. scrap my previous post. it sounds like you don't spend enough time in male company. putting them on a pedestal isn't helpful and most people in the whole wide world certainly don't deserve it
Author paddington bear Posted January 8, 2011 Author Posted January 8, 2011 ok. scrap my previous post. it sounds like you don't spend enough time in male company. putting them on a pedestal isn't helpful and most people in the whole wide world certainly don't deserve it Ha haa, spend far too much time in male company for the last few years. That dynamic changed 3 years ago. Before then, I had all female friends and one male friend. Then I moved country. Now I have one female friends and all male straight/gay friends. So, yes, enough male company to know that, yes, you are right. But not putting on a pedestal, and seeing and treating guys like my equal has not worked. At all. I think you may subconsciously attract these men. is there anything you think you do that leads to this? Totally. Aware of it. The last guy I really tried to not follow that pattern, and it turned out the same. Or rather, he turned out to be of a similar mould. Not sure which is more heartbreaking, that he doesn't like me back, or that I failed miserably yet again at stopping this subconscious attracting of these types of men. Something has to change, that's all I know. Just not sure what exactly. For sure it is my behaviour/attitude that needs adjustment. I'm still not getting what that is though. Like one little cog has come loose, but I can't find which one it is to fix it.
musemaj11 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 No, not unwilling. This is the problem. I am very willing, but I don't think this willingness is coming across, or it gets misinterpreted. Just thinking...so, if I've met numerous guys who think they are not good enough for me, or feel insecure or whatever, so they don't approach or approach and then get scared and I try to show them that I like them, don't be scared little boy (and then promptly get friendzoned by them...). Then this type, the one who can't take an ego-blow, or assumes wrongly that I am more confident than I am, is obviously totally, utterly wrong for me. It just doesn't work. There have been these guys, as above, but there are also men that I think are so amazing and out of my league that they cause me to totally panic. I can't speak, fumble my words, make an idiot of myself because I am so overwhelmed by their amazingness. With these men, I do the exact same as guys do with me. I don't flirt, don't make a move, nothing, for fear of getting a horrible ego-crushing rejection and feeling not good enough for them. But maybe...(brain working overtime here...) I should be going for the ones that I think are too amazing for me to get, the ones that really scare me. That way, the dynamic is already set that the guy is on a pedestal of sorts, that I look up to him and therefore I don't have to allay his fears that I will reject him, nor do I have to pretend that I am vulnerable/soft because I will genuinely be like that. Perhaps this horrible dynamic might change (or I get rejected and all my fears about not being good enough come to pass ) Wow, you are gonna die from confusing yourself. You are so preoccupied with what-ifs in your head.
Author paddington bear Posted January 8, 2011 Author Posted January 8, 2011 No man and no sex leads to overthinking! Anyway, thanks all for the replies. I've just set up two dates. One for coffee with someone who sounds totally mad. And another later with someone who sounds normal (but doesn't look normal). Will try and put everything I have learned in this thread into effect...which is precisely nothing, due to the overthinking....we'll see..
catgotyourtongue Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Hey Paddington, good post I think for a first date, "soft" is more the word to focus on than vulnerable. I don't think anyone wants to see the issues---they just don't want to see the big, hard shell we use to protect ourselves. And, honestly, I look for something similar in a man---enough health, self-sufficiency, and strength to 'hold it together' well in the beginning, but some vulnerability and realness underneath. Though I do think men and women show vulnerability in different ways. agree with several of things Zen said. So, women do want a man better than them men want a woman that won't crush their ego. I suppose, one has to find a man who is equal or above you in terms of confidence, status, intelligence etc. Or at least believes he is. (I've been on the other side of this, by the way, met guys who I just thought were too amazing for me to dare even think that they would want me) As for better than, who is to judge that, I do like someone that is similar to me in some things, better or stronger at others. But I can say I know that I date men who have both a strong and vulnerbale, "soft" side, and the vulnerable side is what draws me closer and helps me see so many things I don't get to see through the strong side. Think men like to see both too. We are not one dimentional, most of us. Ha ha! Yeah! So, guess I have to go for over-confident, overbearing, alpha-male types, who think they are god's gift to women, who wouldn't be in the least bit intimidated by little ol' me (I would hate a man like this..) Okcupid has just told me that I'm in the upper half of the attractiveness scale (I'm sure this is a marketing ploy, but I am ignoring this fact and choosing to believe it - the okcupid algorhythm thinks I'm hot!) Oh girl, I am sure way more than OKC thinks your hot, lol. But it never hurts to hear it. And no, you don't want to end up the guy that thinks he is smarter, better looking and better than everyone else, because they he perhaps does not have that soft or nurturing side. To the point: Yes, I think many men like to feel needed, important, somewhat of a protector, like they can help you in some way, that you need them, etc etc. I am both strong and soft often, I have a lot of both in me, and thank god the softer side is there, cause the heavy, stronger side can be heavy. I have dated some loving men who really were present and available for me because of my so called "vulnerability", and it was a side they loved, and I think they enjoyed giving. If you are by nature a strong person, and not needy all the time, I think men truly love to see that "soft" other side and know they can be there for you. It's the balance that can be beautiful and fulfilling. What could this look like? -Not projecting you can do everything yourself all the time -Asking for help with a task, if you want, or accepting help if offered -Letting someone into a conversation where their opinion could be useful -Asking someone their opinion about something Just try letting men in a little more, and opening up in conversations where their thoughts or feedback could help. IF you dont want to go there, let them change a lightbulb, help move a dresser, etc etc, anything to bring them in a little more and feel like they are contributing in some way. Men need to feel needed, it's a basic need, just as we do. Hugs and happy weekend
carhill Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 OP, you're in Europe, right? When I've been in Europe, I walk a lot. If you're walking with a guy you like put your arm in his arm. Let him 'lead' you. This and concurrent eye contact are a great way to show vulnerability without saying or doing anything substantial. This is one reason I enjoy European women. They know how to mix strength and vulnerability in a way I rarely see here in Cali or the states. Very attractive.
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