Eeyore79 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 OP, please call the police asap, and get tested to make sure you didn't catch anything. I really feel for you; this man's behaviour was wrong, and there is professional help out there which can get you through this trauma.
OpenBook Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 OP, his behavior describes a PUA (Pick Up Artist) almost exactly. A PUA recently shot his date in the face. Here is a link to the thread: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t259925/ Please, please, please report your incident to the police!! Even if nothing is done, this guy will at least be in their records for the future. And he WILL strike again. The only way to stop him is to report him. And DO NOT TALK TO HIM AGAIN!!
dispatch3d Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 OP, his behavior describes a PUA (Pick Up Artist) almost exactly. A PUA recently shot his date in the face. Here is a link to the thread: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t259925/ Please, please, please report your incident to the police!! Even if nothing is done, this guy will at least be in their records for the future. And he WILL strike again. The only way to stop him is to report him. And DO NOT TALK TO HIM AGAIN!! No, it does not describe PUA literature exactly. Holy god. The pua **** isn't about raping women. They even say when you're reading it no means no, yadayada. This does seem like a more grey rape case like catinyourtongue was talking about. Hard to comment on without talking to op in person.
amerikajin Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 No, it does not describe PUA literature exactly. Holy god. The pua **** isn't about raping women. They even say when you're reading it no means no, yadayada. This does seem like a more grey rape case like catinyourtongue was talking about. Hard to comment on without talking to op in person. There are some decent love doctors out there. One guy is "Doc Love", whom I used to read a lot on the AskMen site (not promoting him, just pointing out an example). Doc would advise that a man stand up for himself and not take any crap, but it involved mostly self control. Some of the self-designated "PUA" types, however, are a bit whacked - and granted, some are worse than others. It seems like a lot of the hardcore PUA sites are populated with sexually frustrated men who latch on to anger. I've read some of the PUA sites which advise men to be a-holes whenever a woman cancels a date or whenever they don't get what they want on a first date. It just wreaks of bitterness and anger. I've even read a site in which one bit of advice was to get mad and guilt a woman into a date, or to give her an open ultimatum. That's manipulative, and manipulative people are more likely to rape. The nature of rape is manipulation and control.
sally4sara Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 There are some decent love doctors out there. One guy is "Doc Love", whom I used to read a lot on the AskMen site (not promoting him, just pointing out an example). Doc would advise that a man stand up for himself and not take any crap, but it involved mostly self control. Some of the self-designated "PUA" types, however, are a bit whacked - and granted, some are worse than others. It seems like a lot of the hardcore PUA sites are populated with sexually frustrated men who latch on to anger. I've read some of the PUA sites which advise men to be a-holes whenever a woman cancels a date or whenever they don't get what they want on a first date. It just wreaks of bitterness and anger. I've even read a site in which one bit of advice was to get mad and guilt a woman into a date, or to give her an open ultimatum. That's manipulative, and manipulative people are more likely to rape. The nature of rape is manipulation and control. Quite a few of them also advise coercive tactics, invading personal space, and to pressure till "no" turns into "yes" because "women never say what they mean".
Mme. Chaucer Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 OP The scenario you described is rape, it's a crime, report it. I read your past threads, and IMO you really need some professional help or you are going to end up really hurt.
Art_Critic Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 The scenario you described is rape, it's a crime, report it. I agree.. and it seems like almost all posters in this thread have mentioned it too..
dispatch3d Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 There are some decent love doctors out there. One guy is "Doc Love", whom I used to read a lot on the AskMen site (not promoting him, just pointing out an example). Doc would advise that a man stand up for himself and not take any crap, but it involved mostly self control. Some of the self-designated "PUA" types, however, are a bit whacked - and granted, some are worse than others. It seems like a lot of the hardcore PUA sites are populated with sexually frustrated men who latch on to anger. I've read some of the PUA sites which advise men to be a-holes whenever a woman cancels a date or whenever they don't get what they want on a first date. It just wreaks of bitterness and anger. I've even read a site in which one bit of advice was to get mad and guilt a woman into a date, or to give her an open ultimatum. That's manipulative, and manipulative people are more likely to rape. The nature of rape is manipulation and control. Quite a few of them also advise coercive tactics, invading personal space, and to pressure till "no" turns into "yes" because "women never say what they mean". I didn't ask if you agreed with their "tactics", the advice they give, or the place they come from internally when they are hitting on women. Sure there are some negatives about the stuff they teach, but there are also a bunch of positives. At any rate, nowhere in their literature do they tell guys to rape women. They actually likely stop a lot of guys from having to turn to that sort of thing, because now they have enough skill with women that they don't resort to that kind of awful behaviour. They also explicitly say don't abuse women, don't leave them worse than you've found them, and when the girl says stop absolutely stop. I only take issue with this because you're trying to make logical leaps which simply don't exist.
sally4sara Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 I didn't ask if you agreed with their "tactics", the advice they give, or the place they come from internally when they are hitting on women. Sure there are some negatives about the stuff they teach, but there are also a bunch of positives. At any rate, nowhere in their literature do they tell guys to rape women. They actually likely stop a lot of guys from having to turn to that sort of thing, because now they have enough skill with women that they don't resort to that kind of awful behaviour. They also explicitly say don't abuse women, don't leave them worse than you've found them, and when the girl says stop absolutely stop. I only take issue with this because you're trying to make logical leaps which simply don't exist. n|n The guy may or may not be operating with purchased PUA tactics true enough. But that he calls her after the rape as though its no big deal is what had people associating this with PUA tactics. Rape is illegal; this is common knowledge. So while PUA advise doesn't say "go out and rape women" it does advise coercive tactics. And someone who already has it in them to rape can be bolstered by advise incorporated in PUA tactics. Be pushy. Invade her space. Don't take initial rejection to heart; they don't say what they mean. Get her on the defensive with subtle (HA!) digs. Touch her uninvited. Rinse repeat till no becomes yes. For him to call her after and try to see her again, he clearly has been influenced at some point to think what he did was a-okay and normal to the mating ritual. The advise of friends or male role models is just PUA advise for free. But the result is the same. If you can't remember it well, read the list above again. I got it from the PUA advise I've found. You seem to believe its only PUA advise if someone bought a book or CD, paid for a seminar or some crap like that. But that he did something commonly known to be illegal and still calls her up like it was no big deal means someone at sometime advised him that this is a successful way to pick up women and get laid. Someone might read/hear to repeat these steps as advise to do it to as many women as possible till one finds it appealing. But another person can read/hear it and think you just keep at each one till they freeze up and you get your way. He needs to be reported to the cops period because he will do it again.
ConflictedGuy27 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 OP, slow down in the future... I don't want to minimize the affects this trauma is having on you, and you very well may have been raped; however, this could have been prevented, don't you agree? understanding what steps you can take next time is key. women can very much control the pace of any relationship. guys will come in strong - many at a much stronger rate than others. this is daddy-daughter 101 stuff. I believe saying no is important, but may lose all power once in a compromising position. I'm glad you're safe. this person could have been a murderer for all you know... therefore I will be the one to say it here: you shouldn't have gone to his place. I'm sorry this happened to you. whatever you decide to pursue with regard to this guy (legal or otherwise), I highly reccomend slowing things down to a pace you're comfortable with during the "getting-to-know" you phase. keep interactions in public places and stay away from private one-on-one's where sex usually takes place. you'll get through this, OP. own your contribution to this mess & learn from it. I wish you well.
ConflictedGuy27 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 and regarding all the associations between this guy and PUA techniques... that's just stupid. get real people. we're talking about adults making decisions here. NO PUA can pick up an unwilling woman. perhaps the techniques are perceived by some as agressive, but even if they are, a woman can just ignore the man's advances, laugh in his face or simply walk away. in the PUA literature I've seen, they always mention the process of "picking up" women as a NUMBERS GAME - implying that many women have the opportunity to (and will) REJECT the techniques attempted. another poster got it 100% right when they said PUA's do not advocate rape. this was a bad situation; but PUA tactics are a fools scapegoat in this discussion, IMHO.
jenifer1972 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 At the risk of being beheaded here, I have to say that I would hold out ZERO hope that the American "justice" system will give you any satisfaction in this case. You will be grilled like a liar and be subjected to total vilification of your virtue, only to see him get off due to the ever popular " lack of evidence". Just sayin' , be aware of what you are up against here. Personally, I would deal with him myself with a careful plan, because that is the only way you will get any justice at all. Now running for cover..
lso802 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 At the risk of being beheaded here, I have to say that I would hold out ZERO hope that the American "justice" system will give you any satisfaction in this case. You will be grilled like a liar and be subjected to total vilification of your virtue, only to see him get off due to the ever popular " lack of evidence". Just sayin' , be aware of what you are up against here. Personally, I would deal with him myself with a careful plan, because that is the only way you will get any justice at all. Now running for cover.. I agree with you. Same thing happened to my best friend, and the guy got away with it. OP may not get any justice by the US Judicial system, but she should definitely not take on this alone. That's dangerous. Hopefully, OP will talk to a rape counselor for guidance.
northern_sky Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 No, it does not describe PUA literature exactly. Holy god. The pua **** isn't about raping women. They even say when you're reading it no means no, yadayada. This does seem like a more grey rape case like catinyourtongue was talking about. Hard to comment on without talking to op in person. No, no, no. Assuming the OP is being honest (which I strongly believe she is) this is clear rape. There's no grey there. Really, it's very distasteful of you to take this opportunity to stand on your soap box at the expense of a young woman who was raped.
Kamille Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 guys will come in strong - many at a much stronger rate than others. this is daddy-daughter 101 stuff. I believe saying no is important, but may lose all power once in a compromising position. I think you're speaking about safety and not legal consequences here. The situation being "compromising" doesn't change the fact that she had said no and reports screaming. The compromising situation doesn't change the fact that what this man did was rape. No situation ever gives a person the "right" to rape another. Sadly, some people act like predators. As much as we want to teach our daughters to be safe, we should also raise young men's awareness of the risk of pushing for sex.
ConflictedGuy27 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 (edited) I think you're speaking about safety and not legal consequences here. The situation being "compromising" doesn't change the fact that she had said no and reports screaming. The compromising situation doesn't change the fact that what this man did was rape. No situation ever gives a person the "right" to rape another. Sadly, some people act like predators. As much as we want to teach our daughters to be safe, we should also raise young men's awareness of the risk of pushing for sex. yes, my post particularly addressed safety & avoiding danger when it could reasonably be avoided. I figure this is helpful simply because life goes on. OP is either going after this guy, or she isn't; but the fact remains that she will be faced with more dating and relationship circumstances in the future. maybe similar ones. I only know what OP is telling all of us. we don't necessarily know the whole story and the the guy can't rebut anything here. assuming all we heard is accurate, I agree that a rape certainly happened. please excuse the ounce of skepticism in my tone; I don't like jumping to conclusions w/o all the facts is all. back to my original point though, OP will move on and I hope that this never happens to her again, I hope that if she deserves justice she gets it, but mist importantly, I hope that whenever possible she slows her roll so she can see who she's dealing with before bad things happen. just my $.02 Edited January 8, 2011 by ConflictedGuy27
northern_sky Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Notice how all the posters casting doubt on the OP's rape are men, and men who have a history of engaging in gender wars/stereotyping. When I read the OP, I KNEW this would happened. It is completely inappropriate. Sometimes this site disturbs me. Really, leave your axe-grinding off this thread. 1
northern_sky Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 I only know what OP is telling all of us. we don't necessarily know the whole story and the the guy can't rebut anything here. assuming all we heard is accurate, I agree that a rape certainly happened. please excuse the ounce of skepticism in my tone; I don't like jumping to conclusions w/o all the facts is all. This is completely inappropriate. We're not in a court of law with the accused rapist on trial. We're trying to lend support to a young woman who was just taken advantage of in a brutal way. We owe it to her to give her the benefit of the doubt. Really, this is not the place to be expressing even an "ounce" of skepticism, because it is just insensitive. I could see if her OP sounded ambiguous, but the details she reports clearly indicate rape. 1
catgotyourtongue Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Yes, you did. Have a little sense. Jeez. This comment. NOT necessary, you did not need to make the jab, truly. IF you follow my post and HER reply, good points were brought up. I saw gray in her post, (um, she even responded as such) and saw she was reaching for something more than just "report him". I said I appreciated other people stepping up to do that, it's not my area of expertise. Still is not and won't comment. I sensed (from how I read her post) that she was not sure if that was rape or not, (I misread it, and did not give it proper thought-i do this a lot, read not enough and rush to respond and see what i see, without giving it perspective) and she said that she felt maybe she played a part and other things. I wholeheartedly and completely apologized, owned up to it, and truly felt bad. I still am not sure what wen't on, she did not tell us a lot about her situation, but seemed to focus more on why he was calling and how she felt silly. It caused me to think, and respond innapropriately... At each point -and in each response, I assured her, NO means NO, and showed a lot of love, support, even going so far as to bear my own soul and tell her same thing happened to me. I am a concerned, caring and heartfelt poster most of time. I WILL make mistakes, misread, as I did on another thread, and own up to my shi* more than many people will ever have the balls or self awareness to do. Maybe if you try, you could see I cared for her predicament. I felt bad, I WAS wrong, no need for you to come in with a snarky comment and rub dirt in my face, that is LOW.... YOU could have just as easily come on this thread and NOT rubbed it in my face, or perhaps said, "hey, I am glad you apologized, it did seem a bit harsh or whatever". But you did a snarky comment to make me feel bad or worse, even when I already owned up to their shi*. WHY??? really?? I post with compassion on here all the time, as I am sure you know if you follow me...but because I stick up for men sometimes, I know I will have a few women ready to jump on my shi* when I made a bad call or show my weakness and feel horrible already. Thank you for showing how wrong I was, I needed that...NOT
northern_sky Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 This comment. NOT necessary, you did not need to make the jab, truly. IF you follow my post and HER reply, good points were brought up. I saw gray in her post, (um, she even responded as such) and saw she was reaching for something more than just "report him". I said I appreciated other people stepping up to do that, it's not my area of expertise. Still is not and won't comment. I sensed (from how I read her post) that she was not sure if that was rape or not, (I misread it, and did not give it proper thought-i do this a lot, read not enough and rush to respond and see what i see, without giving it perspective) and she said that she felt maybe she played a part and other things. I wholeheartedly and completely apologized, owned up to it, and truly felt bad. I still am not sure what wen't on, she did not tell us a lot about her situation, but seemed to focus more on why he was calling and how she felt silly. It caused me to think, and respond innapropriately... At each point -and in each response, I assured her, NO means NO, and showed a lot of love, support, even going so far as to bear my own soul and tell her same thing happened to me. I am a concerned, caring and heartfelt poster most of time. I WILL make mistakes, misread, as I did on another thread, and own up to my shi* more than many people will ever have the balls or self awareness to do. Maybe if you try, you could see I cared for her predicament. I felt bad, I WAS wrong, no need for you to come in with a snarky comment and rub dirt in my face, that is LOW.... YOU could have just as easily come on this thread and NOT rubbed it in my face, or perhaps said, "hey, I am glad you apologized, it did seem a bit harsh or whatever". But you did a snarky comment to make me feel bad or worse, even when I already owned up to their shi*. WHY??? really?? I post with compassion on here all the time, as I am sure you know if you follow me...but because I stick up for men sometimes, I know I will have a few women ready to jump on my shi* when I made a bad call or show my weakness and feel horrible already. Thank you for showing how wrong I was, I needed that...NOT This isn't about you. It's about the OP and showing sensitivity to her. Stop making this about you and getting so defensive. Swallow your pride. It's tasteless to cast doubt when somebody is looking for support because they were raped. Even if you see legitimate inconsistencies in her story (which I don't see at all here), it's simply not appropriate to broach when she is feeling like crap. You're not a police officer responsible for figuring out the facts.
northern_sky Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 I am a man and I am not doubting that this happened. That is issue number one. So enough with the gender generalizations. Thats number one, number two, to the poster who said you will be villafied,. made to look like I liar, I digress. Unless you have gone what the OP has gone through, there is no Monday morning quarter backing here, and just because your friend went through something doesn't make your conjecture the standard. Law Enforcement treats rape very seriously just like domestic violence. If this is reported, and he is questioned, his criminal history will be fully evaluated, chances are he has done this before. Rape is a serious allegation, and where I come from, and speaking from working the job, its investigated and treated VERY seriously. I didn't mean to imply that most men would cast doubt on her story. I don't believe that to be true. I was just pointing out that it may be harder for some men to empathize because of their gender and because those particular men have an ax to grind. Anyway, I'm going to end this discussion because i don't want to hijack her thread. I just felt like I should defend her from some of the insensitive posts.
catgotyourtongue Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 This isn't about you. It's about the OP and showing sensitivity to her. Stop making this about you and getting so defensive. Swallow your pride. It's tasteless to cast doubt when somebody is looking for support because they were raped. Even if you see legitimate inconsistencies in her story (which I don't see at all here), it's simply not appropriate to broach when she is feeling like crap. You're not a police officer responsible for figuring out the facts. Darling, it isn't about me, your post was. I made a heartfelt apology to the OP way before you got here. PRIDE, really. I am the one who said I terribly handled this, ME. I reached out to the poster many times w/hugs, love and support. Guess you missed all that. Go figure. I did not tear her apart, 98% of what i said to her was loving, and heartful and I felt her pain. When she asked more questions, I gave more answers, we had a conversation going, it was open, we were ok. You glossed over that. I did not come here and bash her, I came to help. I don't want to start a war here, it is not abt me...but your comment offends me. You can't expect to bully people and be snarky and just walk away every time, sometimes I snark back, it takes a lot. I let a whole lotta stuff go on this board, just really did not need to be kicked when I already felt badly about this, and it's such a sensitive subject already. Shame you couldnt see my true colors, and heartfelt apology for what it was, I felt bad...I have a big heart, and care.
ConflictedGuy27 Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 ...and because those particular men have an ax to grind. not sure if you noticed, but yours is lookin' pretty sharp there...
Distant78 Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 But you did say "All the posters casting doubt on the OP's rape are men."
northern_sky Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 But you did say "All the posters casting doubt on the OP's rape are men." yes, but it doesn't logically follow that all men are casting doubt on the OP's rape, right? I pointed that out because their gender is *part* of why they lack empathy for her situation.
Recommended Posts