Date for a Date

[MarlyStar]

Holy cow! He just did it again.

 

After I posted the above he called and said he found that info he was going to call me about last night. Volunteered he forgot to call because of a work incident that came up (told me about the incident) and then Two and a Half Men came on, and made a joke about Charlies Sheen. We talked a few minutes, it was very pleasant (I was laughing out loud) and then he mentioned he was going out of town tomorrow and he would call me when he got back.

 

It's like a tic: "I'll call you." "Let's go out for a drink." Of course he won't, but I almost have to laugh.

[carhill]

So, have you become one of his orbiters?

 

I've had women do this to me. Inevitably, they do it to a lot of men. Orbiting people around one is a method of validation. Little investment; nice return.

 

One potential to keep in mind. If it works for you, there ya go

[MarlyStar]

So, have you become one of his orbiters?

 

I've had women do this to me. Inevitably, they do it to a lot of men. Orbiting people around one is a method of validation. Little investment; nice return.

 

One potential to keep in mind. If it works for you, there ya go

 

I guess I don't understand. What's an orbiter? Are you saying you think this is an ego stroking game or something passive aggressive? If I thought that was the case, I'd just stop interacting; thinking he's insincere makes me feel bad. However, if he's just slow and cautious and busy, I don't mind giving it some play and see what happens.

[carhill]

People of a certain psychology, generally one leaning towards narcissism, when sensing the interest and/or attraction of another, use social cues to 'orbit' that person, keeping them around, ostensibly for 'honorable' reasons, but with little proactive effort of their own in the areas of interest, care or empathy. Topics are superficial; time spent is defined. There's always a mystery left hanging; a loose end not tied up, but for unknown reasons. There may be gestures of 'connection', but no real acts of connecting.

 

I've had a few of these such orbits go on for years, largely due to my grossly misplaced generous nature. Others, not as well played, ended more quickly. Women are usually better at this since they can play more easily with a man's sexual nature than the reverse.

 

So, as you observe this man, how does he interact with others?

[Cee]

Wow, Carhill, I like your orbiter comment. I never heard of that before, but that precisely describes a situation I'm currently in. The man and I have been circling each other for a couple of years, but keep a boundaried distance. We would not be compatible to date, but the vague attraction keeps us interested enough to stay in contact. Every time one of us pulls back for a long time, the other sends a "What's up?" text.

 

Narcissism, eh? Oh well, I'll own up to it.

[carhill]

My *assumption* is that, if the OP was happy with the dynamic and enjoyed the intrigue and mystery along with the positive interactions of 'lunch', this thread wouldn't be here. She'd be having a wonderful time and spending it thusly IRL rather than asking our opinions. Clearly, she appears to have questions which invade that happiness.

 

IME, rarely are two people so well matched that this dynamic can go on indefinitely. Eventually, one or the other needs to sit down. If they're lucky, a chair has arrived

[MarlyStar]

So, as you observe this man, how does he interact with others?

 

He is very well liked and respected. He has very long term friendships with men and is close friends with both his immediate supervisor and one of his subordinants. He generally goes out of his way to help out others. He's jovial and gentlemanly but politically correct careful around other women that I've seen. This is a work environment where sexual harassment will not be tolerated, not a whiff, so he's in line with most of the men here who are all polite and careful.

 

... but with little proactive effort of their own in the areas of interest, care or empathy. Topics are superficial; time spent is defined. There's always a mystery left hanging; a loose end not tied up, but for unknown reasons. There may be gestures of 'connection', but no real acts of connecting.

 

For all we've only had a dozen or so encounters face-to-face and many emails (mostly initiated by him), he's told me in confidence about his father being in prison and the drug and legal problems of his brother and sister. There are 5,000 people working in this bldg, and I bet I'm the only one who knows this. And he's tentatively approached me about the alcohol problems in his marriage (altho I think probably others he works with know about that). I too had an addicted ex and he knows it and he skirts around the subject and watches me, then skitters the conversation away. Hard to describe. Maybe my intuition is off on that. I dunno. And he told me about a rather amazing financial thing that he said straight out he's told no one about except me. So I wouldn't say topics are superficial.

 

But he doesn't linger on these subjects. He sort of brings them up abruptly, watches me carefully when then changes the subject to something lighter. We talk about books and current events, and what he did career-wise and jokes. He likes to make me laugh, and I laugh a lot when we are together. We can make a joke out of anything.

 

He has an awkward conversational style that I think confuses women. For example the first time he mentioned us going out for a drink, I wasn't sure what he was talking about. My company had given his company wine and he had a bottle and told me that it would 'of course be executed in the future'. Huh? It wasn't until the next time I saw him and he referred to it again and said he couldn't drink it alone and it was chilling and waiting for us to drink it that I was sure he was asking me to drink it with him.

 

Although when I was with him earlier this week I noticed he was much more relaxed talking to me.

 

... There's always a mystery left hanging; a loose end not tied up, but for unknown reasons. There may be gestures of 'connection', but no real acts of connecting.

 

Well, there certainly is a mystery and untied loose ends or I wouldn't have started this thread. But I do feel there's a connection--altho maybe that's all in my head.

 

And that's the problem: mixed signals.

[carhill]

OP, you've just about described to a 'T' how the women who've sucked me into orbit have gone about it. I was thinking 'wow, I feel special. She trusts me enough to share all this stuff <chest puffs out>' Very reserved, almost shy demeanor, but amazingly aware of the effects. It's like I can see them watching me. In the case of the women, just enough of a sexual vibe (eye contact, open body posture, leaning forward, breasts out, etc) to augment the 'intimacy'.

 

It might be absolutely nothing. I always thought that. 'Maybe she likes me'. Back then, I 'got to know' women before asking them out. Big mistake. Now, smiling conversation and such 'intimacy' results in 'wow, sounds like we have a lot in common. I'd love to discuss over dinner. Is tomorrow good for you?' If in the negative, she'll 'get to know' someone else.

 

To me, this would have no substantive impact if it weren't for you desiring more, whether that be more clarity of what is happening or more personal interaction from him, like a *date*. If you were married or in a LTR and having friendly lunches with him, it wouldn't matter. The lunch would be the focus. However, that doesn't appear to be the case.

 

I'd say continue having lunch and accept the attentions of other eligible bachelors. It'll all work out

[MarlyStar]

My *assumption* is that, if the OP was happy with the dynamic and enjoyed the intrigue and mystery along with the positive interactions of 'lunch', this thread wouldn't be here. She'd be having a wonderful time and spending it thusly IRL rather than asking our opinions. Clearly, she appears to have questions which invade that happiness.

 

And this is true. I would have been happy with just the lunches and never expected anything else IF he hadn't so often and consistently brought up taking the next step. He brought it up, and I thought, hmmm, yes, I'd like it, and then it didn't ever seem to happen, and then I started to feel bad and the lunches weren't fun so I was going to quit them and let it go.

 

Then on Monday he sought me out about the cruise brochures and we had a nice lunch. I was cleaning out my phone emails this afternoon and realized he actually emailed me on Sat morning and asked me to be in the cafeteria on Monday. I didn't see it until today, so I didn't respond, but I guess when I didn't respond he sought me out 'accidentally' in the elevators on Monday morning.

 

He said he'd call Monday evening abt something that benefited him, didn't (he told me he forgot and had one of his people arrested for domestic abuse that evening, which I know thru bldg grapevine is true) but called first thing in the morning and then emailed me all day. So I'm in doubt again.

 

If it's an ego game or insincere, I'm not interested. The truth is promising and not following thru hurts my feelings. And if I knew that's the deal, I'd just avoid him.

 

But for all the evidence that he's just playing, it seems to me that there's a good possibility he's just cautious, slow and well intentioned but maybe nervous or something. I don't know. I flip flop. Sometimes I'm sure he's playing games, but it doesn't sit right with me (however if my intuition was good would I be divorced and single at 49?), and sometimes I think he's busy, uncertain but sincere.

 

If he's sincere, I like him well enough to give him time. I still socialize with other men, but don't have as much fun with them as with this guy (minus the ersatz invites).

 

So I threw the question on this forum to see what others thought, but probably since I'm so wordy, very few have weighed in, and I'm still wondering.

[carhill]

I know someone who'd take this like a dog with a bone, but she's busy with law school

 

OP, do you have any friends who can quietly observe you and him? If so, I'd be interested in their impressions, particularly of you, since they'd know you well. I'd be curious on the feedback read.

 

Absent aggressively asking him out, I guess the status quo will continue. Update as more information becomes available. Good luck

[MarlyStar]

OP, you've just about described to a 'T' how the women who've sucked me into orbit have gone about it.

 

Well, I'm sorry to hear it, I never heard of this before...but haven't been in the dating world for a long time; things have changed since the 1980's let me tell you.

 

I'd say continue having lunch and accept the attentions of other eligible bachelors. It'll all work out

 

This is sort of what I was thinking while I was in the dentist chair this morning. When I had that long lunch with him a week ago and said, "Sure, pick a date" and he didn't, I was soooo angry that evening when I thought about it. I'm not and never have been an angry person. Don't like feeling that way. If that happens again, I'm done. Interactions with other people should not create bad feelings.

 

On Monday when we met again, and he said, "I owe you a call" I mentally rolled my eyes and changed the subject. Then he said he'd call that evening, I almost laughed. I knew he wouldn't, and I was right, but he did call the next morning with apologies and a fairly good reason, and for whatever reason I was fine with it.

 

As long as I continue to be fine with it, I guess I'll continue with the lunches in the cafeteria if he intiates them by waylaying me at the elevators, via text or phone or whatever.

 

He said he'd call when he got back into town. Bet he doesn't. If he asks me to go out again, I intend to say, "Sure, what do you have in mind?" And listen carefully to the answer. But I have the feeling that since I called him out on the last invitation with my 'pick a date', he's not going to do that again. Which tells me what I want to know. And too many, "I'll call you" without a call tells me what I want to know too.

 

Oh well, off to make dinner.

[MarlyStar]

OP, do you have any friends who can quietly observe you and him? If so, I'd be interested in their impressions, particularly of you, since they'd know you well. I'd be curious on the feedback read.

 

Yes. One of the people he works with while we were having a longer lunch, walked by several times gawking at us. He ignored him. I saw him later in the elevator and said, "I hope I didn't monopolize XX earlier today when you needed him for something. It would have been fine to interrupt." And the guy said, "Naw, we were all just wondering who the pretty lady XX has been having lunch with. You haven't been able to get him out of his office for love or money this past year." And I said they are short and not very often, they don't mean anything, and the guy just smiled at me.

 

Another time we were having lunch and my friend was standing in the line watching us. When I went back upstairs she said, "Woo hoo! He likes you, girl! Couldn't take his eyes off you." But what did she know? That was the day he wouldn't 'pick a date'. I didn't tell her about the mixed signals. This is a gossipy place and I don't want gossip. I said, "It's just a lunch."

[carhill]

If you consider your friend to be a balanced giver of opinion, then let it ride without prejudice.

 

Absent the obvious lack of a wedding ring, does this man otherwise know you're single/unattached? Apologies if I missed it prior. Does he *clearly* know you're single?

[MarlyStar]

If you consider your friend to be a balanced giver of opinion, then let it ride without prejudice.

 

Absent the obvious lack of a wedding ring, does this man otherwise know you're single/unattached? Apologies if I missed it prior. Does he *clearly* know you're single?

 

June is an optimistic person who always sees the best in every situation.

 

He knows I'm divorced and I live alone, but he probably does not know if I'm dating someone. I date but no one consistently.

 

I have said something to the effect that now that I'm divorced I have options I never had before, I can go to HQ in major city, I can take an overseas assignment, but that pretty much I like living here and probably won't go anywhere, but it's fun to look at options. And that as a retiree, I'll probably do the snowbird thing, have a place down here and a place up north. He said he intended to do the same thing. In talking about retirement, I made it clear I was alone.

 

But that doesn't rule out that I have a steady boyfriend now. I don't know if he'd infer that fact from what I said. From what I've learned on LS, men don't infer anything unless it's said straight out.

[flying]

I can totally see your frustration with this, Marly...but just reading through your thread, he doesn't strike me as a player. He strikes me as a very awkward guy who doesn't know how to get this done.

 

No offense to the engineers of the world, but I went to school with a great many of them, and this roundabout, shy way of "courting" sounds pretty familiar. Given that he was married for a long time to a woman who suffered from depression, I'm guessing he hasn't had much of a social life. You also mentioned that his friend said it's hard to get him out of the office. Do you know anything about his previous dating life, before his wife? I'd guess he didn't have much of one. And - just a guess here - I can't help but wonder if his ex-wife was the one who approached him, you know? He could just be that kind of guy.

 

I don't think you should stop going to lunch. Aside from the frustration, you tend to enjoy it, and as was pointed out upthread - sometimes flirting is an end in itself.

 

But even more than that...I also think it wouldn't be the worst idea in the world to take the bull by the horns and just say, "Hey, remember when you asked me out for a drink? Let's do that. How about this Friday night?"

[carhill]

I just read up on what a Vietnam-era Pathfinder did and, whoa, I can't imagine this guy being a shrinking violet who's shy around women, but I guess anything is possible. He's not only a highly skilled engineer but a trained killer and command/control expert. My very minimal exposure to such guys of similar service history are that they are generally very quiet and unobtrusive but read situations and people extremely well and have no problem taking action in a decisive manner.

 

Well, if nothing else, he'll be making for an interesting lunch partner for some time to come

[MarlyStar]

I just read up on what a Vietnam-era Pathfinder did and, whoa, I can't imagine this guy being a shrinking violet who's shy around women, but I guess anything is possible.

Well, if nothing else, he'll be making for an interesting lunch partner for some time to come

 

There's a lot of guys like that here. My buddy in the desk next to me was Delta and spent 27 months in the middle east. Then got out and went back another 15 months as a contractor (and made 265K a year doing it). They are not shrinking violets, but they can make strange missteps around women. Being in exclusively male company for years and years can make some men socially awkward around women. Altho a lot of them are very clear that there are 'two types of women' the kind you find in bars and 'ladies', the first they have no respect for, but enjoy, and the second they treat with respect--it may be this guy doesn't have a lot of experience with the second 'type'. But I'm only guessing. However, the double standard is very common around here, almost the norm I'd say; and perhaps that's true in the civilian world as well. What do I know?.

 

The lunch guy is gregarious with men, but seems to be 'correct' with women. And he is decisive. But he's cautious, and I've seen him get visibly anxious on a couple occasions about some work thing. I don't think he's a perfectionist, but maybe close. Or maybe he is.

 

I don't know how he and his ex got together. My impression is she was outgoing and gregarious as well. Somebody told me she was a party girl who cheated on him (however he was out of the country for five and nine months at a time) and was unstable. However, that's just gossip and I don't know.

 

I'm quiet and reserved.

 

And yes, he IS very interesting to talk to. And I appreciate it, I grew up in that world and my ex was a West Pointer and a ranger as well, tho not a pathfinder. I know the signifance of the things he tells me.

 

And... I'd be willing to listen to more of his stories IF ONLY HE COULD SET A TIME AND DATE.

 

Sigh...

 

Anyway, I've spent too much time on this. We'll see what happens.

[flying]

There's a lot of guys like that here. My buddy in the desk next to me was Delta and spent 27 months in the middle east. Then got out and went back another 15 months as a contractor (and made 265K a year doing it). They are not shrinking violets, but they can make strange missteps around women. Being in exclusively male company for years and years can make some men socially awkward around women. Altho a lot of them are very clear that there are 'two types of women' the kind you find in bars and 'ladies', the first they have no respect for, but enjoy, and the second they treat with respect--it may be this guy doesn't have a lot of experience with the second 'type'. But I'm only guessing. However, the double standard is very common around here, almost the norm I'd say; and perhaps that's true in the civilian world as well. What do I know?.

 

The lunch guy is gregarious with men, but seems to be 'correct' with women. And he is decisive. But he's cautious, and I've seen him get visibly anxious on a couple occasions about some work thing. I don't think he's a perfectionist, but maybe close. Or maybe he is.

 

I don't know how he and his ex got together. My impression is she was outgoing and gregarious as well. Somebody told me she was a party girl who cheated on him (however he was out of the country for five and nine months at a time) and was unstable. However, that's just gossip and I don't know.

 

I'm quiet and reserved.

 

And yes, he IS very interesting to talk to. And I appreciate it, I grew up in that world and my ex was a West Pointer and a ranger as well, tho not a pathfinder. I know the signifance of the things he tells me.

 

And... I'd be willing to listen to more of his stories IF ONLY HE COULD SET A TIME AND DATE.

 

Sigh...

 

Anyway, I've spent too much time on this. We'll see what happens.

 

Somehow I missed the Delta force pathfinder part. Yeah, he must be an interesting guy!

 

I suppose that does change my view of things somewhat - it does sound like he has more experience than I gave him credit for, after reading your posts more carefully. But as you said, I do think there's a difference between being decisive on the field of battle and being able to make yourself emotionally vulnerable, especially if he's already been burned. And it doesn't sound like he's out there being a playah every day.

 

So, JMO, but I still think you should just go for it and suggest a time and date yourself. He sounds pretty straight-up interested, from everything else you've said.

[VeveCakes]

Why can't you ask him out, with a specific date/time?

[northern_sky]

I agree with Carhill's anaylsis.

 

I think him relying on you for emotional support is actually a bad sign. See, if he were routinely seeking you out and having sort of superficial conversations with you, his needs would be more hidden and ambiguous. In other words, the question would be what is this guy getting out of these light interactions? That would allow for the possibility that he had romantic feelings for you, but was hesitant about expressing them for whatever reason, and just enjoyed being in your presence for that reason alone.

 

In this case, however, there is an apparent, non-romantic need that you are meeting for him. He is sapping you for emotional support in lieu of a relationship.

 

I have a feeling this saga could go on for YEARS with little incursions and retreats that keep your analytical wheels turning but lead to no progress in any direction.

 

You don't realize it, but your heart is on hold for this guy. You have to cut him off completely to move on.

Edited January 20, 2011 by northern_sky

[Madgick1]

It could also be his age. I swear a lot of guys in their 50's turn into fuddy-duddies. They putter--and live in their past glories.

 

I had a similar situation, he did eventually ask me out, but I sat there thinking, I don't want to have fun because then I'm going to have to live through him futzing about asking for a second date or third, and I was just exasperated. I gave up on him.

 

There's something about guys in their 50's; if you can avoid the drinkers (a lot have been divorced for that) and the midlife crisis cassanovas (but they aren't interested in women in their mid forties and up), you get a lot of past glory guys. If they are online they talk about roller blading and going to the gym and skiing and boating and biking and all sorts of activities, and then you meet them--and it's all in the past. They work, come home, watch tv, eat, look at the computer, go to bed and do the same thing the next day. It's hard to get them out of their routines.

 

He might just be a fuddy-duddy.

[Back Burner Gal]

My god, I have orbiters! LOL. That's what's going on exactly with the one I wrote about, and not just him but a couple others. Who'd a thunk it? Orbiters!

 

Marly, something hit me. I've been meaning to call my best friend since 2nd grade for more weeks than I want to admit. My job has long irregular hours because we are open 24 hours a day. She has a lively social life. Every few days, I say to myself: I need to call Joanne, but something happens and I end up saying, tomorrow, this weekend, after work...

 

As I write this I realize I still owe my brother a call, his birthday was last week, and have to call my sister to thank her for Christmas gifts and haven't talked to my mother since Dec 28.

 

And I would enjoy each of these calls. I have a bunch of things to tell all these people. But although I almost never procrastinate, I seem to do it with these calls and I have no idea why. They would be fun calls. I guess the moments of life are getting away from me.

 

Perhaps something like that is happening with your lunch guy? He really means to do it, as soon as he gets home...after he gets a bite to eat...wash up...oh, maybe now is too late...tomorrow...

 

Although I can't explain why when you said to chose a day, he didn't. I think you aren't getting many replies because people really have no idea; it's odd, all anyone can do is guess, so no one does. He sounds interested, but doesn't move forward. Weird.

 

Here's another thought tossed out: older men may not be as aggressive in pursuing women because of lower testosterone? Couple that with a history of getting burned by a recent divorce, maybe it causes them to move very slowly and carefully?

 

Madgick... I agree about men in their 50s. So many are fuddy duddy-ish (and a lot are divorcedalkies); I wonder if that's like a nesting stage in male development. Stodgy.

 

Thinking of divorced alkies and how many I've run into, I wonder if your lunch guy has that problem: during the day he's gung ho, then goes home and has a couple and ... Divorced guys have a high rate of alcoholism and I bet military divorced guys even higher.

 

Shrug

[EasyHeart]

I can totally see your frustration with this, Marly...but just reading through your thread, he doesn't strike me as a player. He strikes me as a very awkward guy who doesn't know how to get this done.

 

No offense to the engineers of the world, but I went to school with a great many of them, and this roundabout, shy way of "courting" sounds pretty familiar. Given that he was married for a long time to a woman who suffered from depression, I'm guessing he hasn't had much of a social life. You also mentioned that his friend said it's hard to get him out of the office. Do you know anything about his previous dating life, before his wife? I'd guess he didn't have much of one. And - just a guess here - I can't help but wonder if his ex-wife was the one who approached him, you know? He could just be that kind of guy.

 

I don't think you should stop going to lunch. Aside from the frustration, you tend to enjoy it, and as was pointed out upthread - sometimes flirting is an end in itself.

 

But even more than that...I also think it wouldn't be the worst idea in the world to take the bull by the horns and just say, "Hey, remember when you asked me out for a drink? Let's do that. How about this Friday night?"

I think this is pretty accurate. I'll also add that given his marital history, this guy has been burned and is being very careful. Plus, you work in the same building and seem to have some common acquaintances, so if you date, it will lead to gossip and if it doesn't work out, it will lead to awkwardness, so that is also making him cautious. Engineers are very analytical and trust me that if he is committed to his career and in any kind of position of authority, he is very, very conscious of perceptions and concerned about what effect dating you might have on his work life.

 

From your descriptions, he sounds like a good guy. Enjoy his company and don't push him. And most, quit analyzing every thing!! You'll drive yourself nuts!