Date for a Date

[MarlyStar]

I work in a building w/many companies and a common cafeteria. Since the end of Sep I have had lunch once a week or so with someone from another company.

 

It isn't corporate culture to linger over lunches here. In fact, like airports the cafeteria only has stand up tables so most people spend 10 minutes at lunch, and the majority take their lunch upstairs.

 

In late September we had such a good time lunching together, we stood there an hour. While doing so, he suggested we attend a Memorial day picnic that Saturday for everyone in the building from all companies. I was excited and it started off fine--it felt like a "date", and then after about 20 minutes, a man from his company joined us uninvited. From that point on, the guy and his collegue talked and I felt like a 3rd wheel. Everytime I talked they both showed me attention and the guy who 'invited' me looked at me with a smile, wide eyes and encouraging nods. But...I simply don't kow engineering and have no idea what they were talking about. The picnic ended with an awkward feeling.

 

On the following Tuesday he sent me an email thanking me for going and suggesting we go out for a drink when he comes back from his next trip which was Thursday.

 

Since then we've had our random weekly 10 minute lunches and in Nov we had another of those hour long lunches and in December we had another hour long standing at the table lunch and a half hour one. We've done lunch about 10 times since the picnic and the last six times he's said something about going to lunch or let's go for a drink. But he never sets a time and date. The closest he came is once saying we should go before I left town for Thanksgiving, but it didn't happen. When I got back he apologized for us not going out, so he didn't forget.

 

This week we had a 10 minute lunch on Tuesday (which I ended, most of our lunches end because i have to go), and an hour and 15 minute lunch yesterday.

 

Yesterday he said, "We need to go out for a drink, do you have much free time?". I said: "I have lots of free time, I'd like that, name a date."

 

He asked me for my phone number. He's already got my desk phone and my cell phone (he once called the cell thinking maybe I left an umbrella at the table), but he wanted my personal house phone. I gave it. He's got me in his cell phone by my first name only (I saw when he punched in my house phone).

 

He asked where I lived. I named the suburb (which he knew because it's small and next to his, and he didn't forget it because earlier we'd mentioned a location and he said it was an easy drive for me).

 

He said, "No I meant where in ___. I gave him the cross streets and he very happily said, "Oh good, you are near me."

 

But no date.

 

So WTH is going on? Does he want to go for a friggin' drink or not (not to mention the 2 times he suggested going out for lunch)?

[Madgick1]

He's married or has a girlfriend.

[MarlyStar]

No, he's not. He's 54 (I'm 49), he was married for about 15 years to a woman with severe depression. She's on SSDI. They divorced with no kids.

 

Three years later he married a much younger woman and that lasted 6 years (a 9 year relationship). I think he was more or less happily married and then she got dissatisfied and left the state. She's living with someone else now. Something he's said to me makes me think he was shocked when the marriage fell apart and very hurt. She just left after a short run at marriage counselling where she expressed how angry she was, then left with nothing. He had to file for divorce with her out of state.

 

He told me the age different with her was a problem (although he hasn't said very much about her; just that she exploded at marriage counseling to his surprise and that the age difference was a problem).

 

I work with a woman who lives in his neighborhood and has known his sort of for about 10 years. She verified this, and said his ex said the problem was the age difference and that they were both strong personalities. She saw us eating lunch and said she was glad he was eating with me. Said she thought he was lonely (something he said to me once made me think so too).

 

She also said a couple times since his divorce he'd have a a woman over but nothing ever seemed to stick. (she also said he's very nice to the kids in the neighborhood).

Edited January 7, 2011 by MarlyStar

[Madgick1]

Maybe he just likes the occasional lunch buddy and isn't really that 'into you'?

[Jazzari]

Sounds like the guy is gun shy. Perhaps you should invite him out at a specific time and place.

[MarlyStar]

Maybe he just likes the occasional lunch buddy and isn't really that 'into you'?

 

That's what I thought after the awkward picnic. I thought, well, that's that.

 

But he initiated contact afterwards and started mentioning drinks and lunch. I never asked him, never hinted, nothing.

 

I know he's attracted to me. Body language, casual touching (yesterday tapping my hand while talking to me, I've watched, he doesn't do that to others), extended eye contact until I drop my eyes (yesterday, eye contact almost the entire time). I'm the one who usually ends our encounters.

 

He's woven compliments on my attractiveness in several of our conversations.

 

So why does he keep asking me for a drink if he only wants a casual lunch companion every now and then?

 

Why not set up something yesterday, when he mentioned going out and I said, "sure, pick a date."

 

Why not pick a date? He brought it up, why not follow through?

 

I don't get it.

[MarlyStar]

Sounds like the guy is gun shy. Perhaps you should invite him out at a specific time and place.

 

But didn't I do that when I said, "I'd like that, pick a date."

 

I think he may be gun shy. But I don't know what that means. I just thought if a guy was interested he'd just ask--and this is NOT a shy man. He's gregarious and friendly--but guarded. He's got some secrets, and he's shared a bit of them with me.

 

I was kind of surprised reading here how many men are anxious about asking women out. Call me dumb (I was married 20 years and divorced 3 years ago so I don't have much experience here), but I was wrong. I'm finding out guys do find asking women out problematic.

 

I was thinking when I wrote this, I'd just stop going downstairs for lunch. He'd never see me.

 

Maybe nudge subtly? Maybe...sigh...I dunno...

 

The fact is, he's asked other women out, at least two since his last divorce (per my neighbor), although for all I know they were just bar pick ups. But, just the same, he knows how to do it.

[Jazzari]

No, you didn't ask him out. You threw the ball back into his court.

 

Guys aren't subtle. Ask him out and be specific as to event, date and time.

 

One way or the other, you'll get your answer.

[MarlyStar]

All right, I'm feeling better after my vent at Gun Shy or What http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t259993/

 

But I still don't understand. It's a drink, not a lifetime commitment. A drink. I had a drink with someone I didn't know this evening, a friend of a friend.

 

Why ask, but not follow through?

 

He was alone for his birthday in Oct this year...and for Christmas and for Thanksgiving. He might have gone to a NYE party (he mentioned his boss has one every year). Even people who like to be alone (and he did once say he was a homebody) want to spend the holidays with someone.

 

Or maybe he has a FWBs and that our colleague doesn't know about, and that's all he wants... but still, why ask.

 

I have no idea what gun shy means. If you are gun shy, wouldn't you just not ask?

 

I know he's a cautious guy. I've seen him get a bit anxious when things might go wrong. For the most part he's hyper responsible without being a perfectionist. He's kind and he goes out of his way to do favors for others. I've seen it. I've accidentally been behind him coming out of the parking lot and he is a careful and courteous driver. He has a huge motor cycle but has talked about how the other drivers don't see him and some of the main roads 'scare him' to ride it on.

 

He was a Delta force pathfinder and in combat for 10 -15 years picking up downed helicopter pilots, particularly those behind enemy lines, then became the director of a group of egineers for a major military contractor. He was a marine brat growing up.

 

I was an army brat, then joined the army for 6 years, then joined a different military contractor and do security clearances for military contractors. We work on an army base. He's interested in my job, I'm interested in his (what I understand of it).

 

He tries to impress me. He tells me the things he did as a Delta force member. He frickin' once brought me his DD214 to show me what he'd done; he's not making this stuff up. It's impressive.

 

He's not handsome, his nose is way too big and his chin recedes and he looks about 5 years older than he is. But I like the look of his face.

 

His eyes are sad and kind. His nose is terribly broken and curved--he's been battered by life physically and emotionally (but who among us has not been beat up by life, I had a horrible marriage to a man who turned drug addict 10 years into our marriage, I got my baggage too). His lips are very thin, but he smiles easily and when he does he gets long dimples and I am so pleased when something I say makes him smile or laugh. I feel like I've 'won' something.

 

He laughs more with me than others and smiles more easily. His subordinants like him (he has about 200) but they straighten up and are alert when he's around. The times he's walked me back to the elevator through his area, he's pointed out things to impress me. Yesterday he walked me the long way back to show me something.

 

There are more opportunities for lunching in the cafeteria with me, but he doesn't take them all. He is very busy. When he's with me his phone rings all the time. He ignores them.

 

He's an odd combination of guarded and open. He speaks in slang, not just military slang (which I understand) but like old 1940's black and white B movie private eye. Like yesterday he was criticizing a married man who was out 'chasing skirt'. He also said one of his employees was 'doing the dirt' and it took me a minute to figure out he was talking about drugs.

 

I don't know how he is with other women socially, because all the women are subordinant to him and he's very professional and friendly, but there's the reserve and guardedness there.

 

I remember at the picnic out of nowhere, he said to the other guy who joined us: "sexual harassment will not be tolerated; I will have a comfortable environment for everyone." I thought at the time: he said that for my benefit. (it's not an issue on the base).

[MarlyStar]

Yesterday, he walked me back to the elevator after the "aborted" invitation for a drink and when the elevator opened he squeezed my hand, looked in my eyes, hesitated, I saw the hesitation, then quickly kissed my check.

 

Business kisses are very rare here; it's a very formal place to work; however, they are ok. No one would be shocked or even disapproving, but it would be noticed (although I thnk the lobby was mostly empty). Being of different companies and of relatively equal rank (he makes about $160K and I make $119K, but my company is more prestigous than his), it's acceptable.

 

I however WAS shocked. The man can kiss me in public at his work place which will cause comment in both our companies, if nothing else, but can't set a time and date to have a simple private drink that he's mentioned having at least six different times?

 

And then today when I went to lunch, he came by and joined me for our usual 10 minute stand up lunch, all was like before, if maybe a bit reserved and nothing said about a drink (was he afraid I'd say, "Great, let's choose a time."?). In parting (he was still eating lunch) it was, "Have a wonderful weekend?"

 

I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

 

Can anyone explain this man to me?

 

Do you understand my confusion and frustration?

[MarlyStar]

And of course I've explored the possibility that he's just not that into me; attracted, yes, but can take it or leave it.

 

I'm 49, but have very few wrinkles, just some light crows feet and a slight bagginess under my brows and a little fullness under my chin. My hair is long and curly and well groomed. My hip to waist is .72, I have a nice figure and dress simply, well, and femininely. I work with 800 men (most sadly younger than me or married) and I know I'm attractive. I'm not the cutest thing around, there's alot of nice looking women out there, but I'm okay.

 

If you base a 'league' on looks alone, I'm out of his league, but when you factor in finances, education, rank, we are in the same league, as much as anyone can measure this sort of thing.

 

But maybe it's something in my personality or mannerisms that just doesn't do it for him. That's fair. It's much harder to judge how your personality appears to others, or to know what someone else finds attractive (although I googled his last ex on facebook, and you know something, I look sort of like her. Her face is rounder, her smile different, she's younger but heavier, but there is some resemblance).

 

If he wasnt into me enough to take me out for a drink, then why ask? Why laugh more, stare into my eyes, all the casual touching and body language, telling me about his trouble family and another something that he told me he'd never told anyone else? Why try to impress me, bringing his DD214 to me unasked for like a kid bringing home a report card?

 

I don't understand.

[MarlyStar]

And I don't know what to do about it.

 

I don't like it. I've spent more time thinking about it in the last 36 hours than I've spent in total with him.

 

And I think I'm just going to bow out. I'll vomit it all here so I don't think about it, and then just stop interacting with him unless he calls one of those 3 numbers I gave him and offers a proper time and date for a date.

 

He has no reason to come to my floor. I'll send the secretary down for my sandwich.

 

My guess is I'll never see or hear from him again. Any takers? Can I set up a poll?

 

I'd like to get to know him better, in a relaxed non-professional atmosphere. But this is crazy.

 

And I don't understnd it.

[MarlyStar]

No, you didn't ask him out. You threw the ball back into his court.

 

Guys aren't subtle. Ask him out and be specific as to event, date and time.

 

One way or the other, you'll get your answer.

 

But what will I learn?

 

He'll either accept and I'll know. Or he will make a plausible and polite excuse--and then show up at my lunch table again in a few days, talking and laughing and charming me and I'll be no better off. And probably even in a couple weeks start mentioning going out for a drink again.

 

And if he does accept, I'll wonder if he's just doing it to be accommodating, maybe because he doesn't want to embarass a business colleague who knows a lot of the same people he knows.

 

And then will I always be the initiator?

[MarlyStar]

No comment?

[carhill]

Hi OP, welcome to LS

 

Reading your thread, it sounds like you could be this man's biographer. You know a lot about him; many details. What would you say he knows about you?

 

I'm sensing an imbalance. When we find someone intriguing or attractive, it causes them to rise above the page for us and, imperceptibly, we begin to care more (like knowing those details) than we would about another person in the same circumstances. For a relationship, even a good friendship, to develop, balance is necessary. It can't be one-sided.

 

Men aren't fragile creatures. From what you've shared, this man certainly isn't. He's smart, cautious and likely quite intuitive. He's seen a lot of life, more than many. That brings a certain perspective about things. Continue on as things are and enjoy the social attentions of other men. Don't pursue him. He's aware, as much as he wants to be, of your value to him. If that value is sufficient, he'll act, in a way commensurate with his path in life. If that matches up with you and your path, great. If not, not. You can't will it into existence.

 

Good luck

[MarlyStar]

Reading your thread, it sounds like you could be this man's biographer. You know a lot about him; many details. What would you say he knows about you?

 

He knows pretty much the same facts about me, without so many details. When I go into my details, he will listen intently, wait for me to pause and then launch into an impressive related story about himself.

 

Men aren't fragile creatures.

 

I agree . It's not like he is building up his courage to ask me out. He HAS asked me out and I HAVE accepted, at least six times. He's not facing any 'fear of rejection' here.

 

He's asking, I'm accepting, he's retreating. Why is he doing this?

 

Continue on as things are and enjoy the social attentions of other men.

 

Continue having the cafeteria lunches? Would that be your advice?

 

I'm pretty much resolved to stop those. After Thursday's 'psuedo' invitation, I feel it's time to put up or shut up. As you pointed out, I can't will him into putting up, but I can certainly shut it up.

 

And you are right, he is smart and intuitive, and he will figure it out. After all, he DID hear me say, "Yes, I'd like to go out for a drink, pick a date".

 

It will take maybe a month for him to figure it out considering the pattern of our contact, but he will notice. And if he values my company he will use one of those 3 phone numbers he has for me and call and set up a meeting OUTSIDE the job site.

 

The only reason I see to continue having those cafeteria lunches is because I noticed they are increasing in quantity and quality and the invitations to go out someplace else are getting more insistent.

 

I would like to explore maybe something more. Although I have no idea if he's relationship material (I did notice Thursday his eyes were red and having had an alkie ex, I wondered if this guy drinks too much) or if we are mutually compatible, with his invitations he opened up the possibility of exploring something more, I considered it, walked through the door he opened, only to find he didn't follow me. WTF.

 

I looked forward to those cafeteria lunches. They were fun, flirty, mutually ego stroking, intriguing (or whatever they were). Had he never opened the possibility of more, I would have been fine continuing like that.

 

Now I feel like I'll be looking at him thinking, WTH. And that's a drag. "Psuedo invitation" pretty much have ruined it.

 

Maybe if I understood what he's doing, I'd be ok with continuing the cafeteria lunches.

 

That's why I wrote here to see if any of you have any idea what he's doing. Why continually invite a woman out (for the most part every time you see her), have her accept, then not follow through. What IS this?

 

What's your take on that?

Edited January 8, 2011 by MarlyStar

[carhill]

Why continually invite a woman out (for the most part every time you see her), have her accept, then not follow through. What IS this?

 

What's your take on that?

 

Good question. Here's my MC at work:

 

'We seem to get on well and I enjoy your company. You've asked me out and I've accepted and then something for you always seems to come up, causing you to cancel. Why is that?'

 

Leave it open-ended.

 

Accept the response.

 

If it doesn't indicate interest commensurate with your own, discontinue.

 

The reason I mentioned continuing to accept the attentions of other men was to assist in placing this dynamic in its healthy perspective; with other positive social engagements, flirty lunches with this man will be just that, fun that goes nowhere. Sometimes nowhere is a fun destination. Good luck

[Jazzari]

I once went out with a guy who acted similar. After we finally got together, he admitted that he was terrified of me. He knew that what he felt was serious and he didn't want to fall in love. He'd walk right up to the line and then back off again over and over.

 

We worked at the same company and were both sent on a seminar in a distant city and so we finally hooked up there. We had sporadic encounters after that but nothing regular. I finally got tired of it and walked. He ran right after and finally admitted that he loved me. Wow - what a difference! Once he made that statement he was the most loving and attentive man I ever met. The relationship took a whole new turn and we ended up getting married.

 

I don't know if your guy is the same but if he feels very strongly and has been burned in the past - maybe he is just afraid?

[Madgick1]

After we finally got together, he admitted that he was terrified of me. He knew that what he felt was serious and he didn't want to fall in love.

 

I was thinking the same thing.

 

It's not the drink, it's the possibility that going out marks a new phase of your acquaintanceship: relationship exploring. And he's not ready for that, being a year out of an unexpected and painful divorce.

 

He may be very confident, smart and intuitive in his common sphere, men, military stuff, engineering, management, etc... but feel out of his element with women, especially if he feels he read his exwife wrong.

 

He may be lonely and want a girlfriend/relationship/closer bond, but not like or be able to tolerate the vulneralbility of it. So he enjoys your company, likes how you make him feel, wants to continue it--so offers the next step. Then you accept--and he thinks, oh it's happening, not yet, I'm not ready, and he pulls back.

 

I think maybe that's why the response to "I'd like to, pick a date" was not a complete refusal, such as "Great, I'll have to get back to you, I've got a lot of stuff coming up, this is the crazy season here, I'm going here...and got to do that...." Which is completely backing down.

 

Instead he shifted slightly into a parallel, but still a 'date promoting' activity: getting your phone number (even tho he didn't need it) and your address (altho he knew it for the most part).

 

I think it's interesting about the address. He already knew you lived near by but wanted to know the cross road. I wonder if he was envisioning himself picking you up. As opposed to you and him meeting somewhere convenient to both your locations, which with the info he already had, could have been arranged without him knowing your exact location.

 

I also think it's interesting you look like his ex. I wonder if that's good or bad.

[MarlyStar]

Good question. Here's my MC at work:

 

'We seem to get on well and I enjoy your company. You've asked me out and I've accepted and then something for you always seems to come up, causing you to cancel. Why is that?'

 

I'm not going to contact him. I'm going to stay away from the cafeteria.

 

One of three things will happen:

 

1. I'll never hear from him again. Problem resolved.

 

2. He'll figure it out, call with a time and date and we'll go from there.

 

3. He'll call with a pretext such as 'are you going down to the cafeteria today, I was going to give you some of these brochures'. And act like nothing is up.

 

If this happens, I'll ask him that.

 

I think I'll never hear from him though. Either he's just not very interested and has this weird habit of asking women out without meaning it, or he is interested and just not ready and will let me disappear because he's not ready. (and that would be too bad, but what can you do...?)

 

The reason I mentioned continuing to accept the attentions of other men was to assist in placing this dynamic in its healthy perspective; with other positive social engagements, flirty lunches with this man will be just that, fun that goes nowhere.

 

I have been. But no spark. I miss the spark.

 

And it could have been fun that went no where--except he opened the door that it might go somewhere and for me it's ruined.

Edited January 8, 2011 by MarlyStar

[MarlyStar]

I once went out with a guy who acted similar. After we finally got together, he admitted that he was terrified of me. He knew that what he felt was serious and he didn't want to fall in love.

 

I don't know if your guy is the same but if he feels very strongly and has been burned in the past - maybe he is just afraid?

 

Of course, of the possible explanations, I like this one. Poorguy came up with it on the other thread as well. And... I can make a case for it.

 

But I can also make a case for the opposite: I was just a pretty lady to have lunch with on occasion when he wanted a bit of time away from his desk.

 

But the alternative explanation doesn't take into account his repeatedly asking me out. Maybe he likes knowing he COULD get a date with me, but doesn't really want one. And even then, unless he's really needy, I can't see why he does it almost every encounter with me.

 

On the other hand, believing he's interested but just very nervous is incredibly self serving; although it sort of squares with my gut feeling. But because I'm interested I don't trust my gut feeling.

 

And even if it's true, where does it leave me. He's not ready. So where does that leave me?

[MarlyStar]

This just leaves me shaking my head.

 

I haven't been going down for lunch, but it's been less than a week, so I doubt he noticed.

 

So yesterday I bump into him at the elevator. His face just lights up. This confuses me, it really lights up, okay, that's good; I like him too; but again makes me wonder 'why not follow thru on the invites' if he feels that way.

 

He asks if I'm going to lunch today, he's brought some cruise pamplets that I'd asked about ages ago. Fine.

 

So it's a long lunch and very pleasant as they all are. He kissed my cheek when I arrive; and he has two things--the pamplets and his personnel record. He wants me to explain something in his personnel record that I have experience in. It's something we'd discussed a long time ago and I'd said I'd do.

 

So while I'm looking at the cruise folder he's just talking abt things he's going to do (has to go to DC later this week and what he has to do before), and suddenly he says: "I owe you a call".

 

What do you say to that? I simultaneously thought two things: "Yes, you do" and "No, buddy, you don't 'owe' me anything--don't do me any favors."

 

Well, it didn't feel right to bring up Carhill's gentle questioning abt what's going on. So i just responded by pointing out something in the brochure and the conversation went on from there.

 

I looked at his personnel file, explained the issue, needed a bit more info to be accurate which he said he thought he had at home. So much for that. But then he kept pushing it at me, he wanted me to 'browse it' to see if there was anything more pertaining to the issue. I know there's some very impressive accomplishments in there and I had the feeling he wanted me to see them (he could have just brought the one thing in , so I flipped through politely and said, "Someday I'm going to have to persuade you to tell all about XX and YY." And again he got all animated.

 

All the food was eaten and there was a natural pause in the conversation so I collected up my stuff and was about to leave and he launched into another conversation. This happened a couple times. He did not want me to leave.

 

When I left, he walked me to my elevators and just as I was about to get on, he said: "I'll call you this evening abt that info needed for my file."

 

I said "fine", but was thinking: No you won't. You aren't going to call, maybe in the next week or so you will email the info, but I know you won't call.

 

I was right. He did not call. And this is something that interests and will benefit him, as opposed to setting a time and date to go for drinks.

[MarlyStar]

This is my take on it.

 

He's attracted and interested. He's imagined taking me out, but for whatever reason is not ready. This is what I think it is a combination of:

 

He's busy. He does have a 24 hour job and there's something that alays comes up. I know on Xmas eve he had a crisis he had to handle by phone. This isn't his job, but it is similar to running prisons; there's just one crisis after another, and the buck stops with him. And he takes his job seriously and is very thorough (jobwise at least).

 

He's comfortable with his life. Whether he's lonely or not (and he's dropped hints that he is), he's worked out a routine he's comfortable with. I think he's an introvert (so am I so I understand), and he values his alone time. He's going to be cautious about introducing new elements in. I think there's also a bit of out-of-sight, out-of-mind going on too.

 

Finally on a lesser scale I think he sort of assumes I wouldn't be interested (despited the fact I keep accepting his invites). Yesterday I noticed again he's awkward with women (altho unfailingly polite).

 

I might rethink the 'not doing lunch' thing. It hurts my feelings to be asked repeatedly with no follow thru. But I thought abt it last night, and i think it hurts my feelings because I felt jerked around or like I was being played somehow for ego stroking or that maybe there was some passive aggressive thing going on.

 

But if I knew it was just he's interested but not ready/too busy that would not make me feel bad. I have no problem waiting for him to be ready.

 

So I'm trying to decide how to proceed:

 

1. Just stop the lunches and move on; this just isn't clicking right.

2. Do the once a week lunches as before.

3. Increase the lunches in the hopes he becomes more comfortable, gets to know me better, and thus makes the resolve to follow thru.

 

You know, I don't think I've ever had a relationship with another introvert; I've always been aggressively pursued by extroverts. This is very different and seems strange to me. Does it seem strange to anyone else.

[Moonstone]

Maybe he's just too shy. Hang in there!

Edited January 18, 2011 by Moonstone

[Cee]

I think you are an incredibly perceptive and compassionate person. He is a lucky man to have a friend like you.

 

If I were in your situation, I would friendzone him. He has already balked and the ball is no longer in his court. It has bounced away and is lodged in the bleachers. Allow yourself to be free to enjoy his company on a strictly platonic level. Seek out other men. He may finally get out of his rut and call you, but there's no point in you waiting for him to do that.

 

One last comment. Flirtation can be an end unto itself. Not every flirtation needs to lead to a date. Having a crush can energize you and make the day a little more fun. Lunches with this guy seem enjoyable for you. You can keep doing them without an expectation that anything needs to happen. If you are too upset that he hasn't asked you out, you can end the lunch thing. But you don't sound that upset, only puzzled.

 

Good luck and keep us posted.