Fern Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 I found this quote on the Other Man/ Woman forum (I like to go there and read about the problems cheaters bring on themselves - it cheers me up) and I thought it was interesting. When someone leaves a M, whether there was an A or not, they take the dynamics with them and start them up again with the next person, UNLESS they do the work to change themselves first. This is true of any romantic relationship. It's funny how we draw in the next partner to work on the same sh** over and over again, if we dont face ourselves and accept full responsibility and get help to change. Not always pretty,but it sure does improve things. Do you think this is true? I hope so. I like to imagine that NG is getting the same emotional cripple act that I got and isn't benefitting from any insights or maturity he gained whilst with me. I don't understand how this works in my case though. The relationships are SO different. How can he be revisiting the same issues? He's obviously smitten with NG immediately in a way he never was with me - but we grew to have a wonderful connection (even if it was just as friends on his part). Even at our worst sexually and emotionally we never ran out of things to talk about and I know he finds me intellectually stimulating. She's pretty but not very bright. Lots of people have called her dull. She's nothing like me and the relationship started off totally differently. Does that mean the dynamics change? Or is it simply that HE hasn't changed - and will fall back into treating her the way he treated me eventually? Please, no 'who cares!' posts - I know I shouldn't care, blah, blah, but it's interesting to me and I'd like to hear what you think.
AC06 Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 It's interesting and quite possibly true. I mean, really, a big fear when you get broken up with for someone is "Will they treat them like me?" Got that at the moment for sure. My ex treated me better than anyone has in my life for the first year, will she treat the next guy the same? Even though she treated me well, she made it VERY difficult, almost impossible, to sustain the relationship after a certain point, will he get that, too? Will she respect me more if he doesn't handle it like I did? I really don't know, but I do believe that if you move on to someone without a clear break between relationships, you really are just making your new one a continuation of the last, which obviously isn't the setup for success.
Rose T Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 I don't understand how this works in my case though. The relationships are SO different. How can he be revisiting the same issues? He's obviously smitten with NG immediately in a way he never was with me - but we grew to have a wonderful connection (even if it was just as friends on his part). Even at our worst sexually and emotionally we never ran out of things to talk about and I know he finds me intellectually stimulating. She's pretty but not very bright. Lots of people have called her dull. She's nothing like me and the relationship started off totally differently. Does that mean the dynamics change? Or is it simply that HE hasn't changed - and will fall back into treating her the way he treated me eventually? I think the fact that she's very different from you is down to the fact that there's usually an element of rebound in situations like that - he doesn't want her to remind him of you, because he's proven himself incapable of resolving the relationship with you in a mature way. This suggests however that your shadow is still cast across their relationship in some form. While the dynamics of the two individuals may be different in the new relationship, I do believe that people repeat the same behaviours if they don't face up to them. I'm guessing you know him better than she does, Fern, so you have some idea about what she's really setting herself up for - he'll probably bring his own control / avoidance mechanisms and moods to that relationship too, whatever they were. For example, my ex would introduce little dramas into our relationship every two to three months - suddenly apply for a job out of the country because he needed a change of direction, blame me that he'd stopped seeing his friends and hang out with them for a concentrated period, blame me that he'd stopped going to the gym and suddenly vanish on a fitness drive... small patterns that didn't add up to much at the time but which, over time, put holes in the bottom of our 'boat'. In your case, I think you can be pretty sure that he hasn't changed - they might look happy from the outside, but she's getting the worst of him as much as the infatuation. When that wears off, too, I think you can guarantee that the flakiness will return.
GreenPolicy Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Have you heard of attachment theory? Basically everybody mimics the kind of attachments to their parents as a child with their SO in adulthood. There are three basic categories: secure, anxious and avoidant. It's rare for somebody to fall exclusively within one attachment pattern, most people tend to exhibit traits from two. About half the population is secure, with the other half being either anxious or avoidant, or some combination of anxious/avoidant. Secure attachers: give their love freely, are open, honest and pursue goals in relationships with great clarity. They can sometimes seem "boring" because they create little or no drama in a r/l. Anxious attachers: These people need to be constantly reassured by their SO that they love them. They worry about infidelity and are the types to freak out if they call their SO and the call goes to voicemail. They can be clingy, insecure and needy in some respects. Avoidant attachers: These people operate somewhat as lone wolfs in relationships and have great difficulty establishing intimacy. I can see that I am generally a secure attacher with a few anxious traits. My ex-fiancee is definitely an avoidant attacher. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_in_adults#Anxious-preoccupied_attachment
Graceful Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 When someone leaves a M, whether there was an A or not, they take the dynamics with them and start them up again with the next person, UNLESS they do the work to change themselves first. This is true of any romantic relationship. It's funny how we draw in the next partner to work on the same sh** over and over again, if we dont face ourselves and accept full responsibility and get help to change. Not always pretty,but it sure does improve things. Do you think this is true? I hope so. I like to imagine that NG is getting the same emotional cripple act that I got and isn't benefitting from any insights or maturity he gained whilst with me. I think it's a generalization to say this is the case in all relationships. This generalization is based on the idea that the people are flawed. We all have issues, that's for sure, but the work you have to do varies. This might actually mean that you have learned that you need a completely different type of person as a partner, rather then saying that the person you were with was flawed, if you see what I mean. There are issues of compatibility. There are some people who do not belong together, they are not compatible, but that does not mean they both can't go out and be very happy with other partners, when they find the compatible partner. There are issues of core values. There are issues of priorities. For some, sex is not a high priority. For others, a good sex life is a very high priority. If you were in a r/l where the sex wasn't working very well, I would think it would be very understandable he would be smitten with someone who he was more sexually compatible with, at least at the beginning. It might prove to be empty after a while, but at the beginning, it's probably very enticing. Then there's the issue of what does it mean when someone "changes" ? Does a person change when they quit drinking or drugs? Does a person change if they stop gambling? Does a person change when they get help with anger management? Change or evolve? Are they the same on the inside, at their core, yes. But can they make changes and improve, yes. Can 4-stage clingers change? I suppose if they put the work in. Or they might find someone who loves a clinger. I would not judge a book by its cover, either. That's not fair. I could not be more different from my ex's NP (now his wife), but for that matter, I have no intention of trying to find a carbon copy of him physically, either. I have been attracted to different types of men. It's driven by what's on the inside. Would not judge this. Some people simply do not bring out the best in each other. That relates back to compatibility. You were not bringing out the best in each other. But there are many people who move on and find a complementary partner where they are bringing out the best in each other. Happens. My ex was not "enough" for me in certain ways. He is "enough" for someone else. It wasn't a flaw on his part, he just can't give more because it's not there to give. I need someone who can give me more, really care for me. He didn't need to change if he is "enough" for his new partner, she is not me. This might make him feel better about himself, that's fine with me, feeling like he is "enough." He might feel the same on the inside (low self-esteem), I have no idea, and don't care at this point. People can move on to specifically find someone who will put up with them as well. They just keep doing the same drill over and over, so they find someone who doesn't mind. Can happen. There are people who clearly treat everyone like crap. They probably will not change, and they probably bring misery no matter where they go, if this is what you want to hear! She's nothing like me and the relationship started off totally differently. Does that mean the dynamics change? Or is it simply that HE hasn't changed - and will fall back into treating her the way he treated me eventually?I've seen just about everything. Sometimes, yes, history will repeat itself. Some people walk and just keep walking, don't think they have any problems, think that changing partners is "changing" themselves, etc etc. So guess what happens? I had a friend who had a meltdown around age 29, in a perfectly wonderful marriage to a fantastic guy. We all asked if he had any brothers, in fact! Long story short, she had "hitting 30 crisis" and left him. He was crushed. She went on to find love with the complete opposite type of man. A "cad", sort of, but he swept her off her feet, and they now have two kids and are still together, though not married. Her exH went on to re-marry someone very similar to his ex, in fact they had been friends! He married someone very similar, they also have kids now, and could not be more devoted and happy with each other. So she took the opposite route and is happy, he took the same route and is happy. So what does that tell you? Then there's the commitment issue. Who wants it, who can give it, has the person had these issues in the past, and on and on and on. You have to look at a r/l history to see patterns, and everyone does not necessarily have a pattern at a young age, so that's part of it, too. In your case, you simply were not valued, you were not a priority, it sounds like you were 90 percent roommates, and 10 percent romance. Or something like that. To me, that's more what you should be thinking about. What do you want in your next relationship? Do you want to be with someone who treats you like a priority? Hope I've convinced you that it's a not a good idea to generalize, even though you told us not to say this!
abust1 Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Have you heard of attachment theory? Basically everybody mimics the kind of attachments to their parents as a child with their SO in adulthood. There are three basic categories: secure, anxious and avoidant. It's rare for somebody to fall exclusively within one attachment pattern, most people tend to exhibit traits from two. About half the population is secure, with the other half being either anxious or avoidant, or some combination of anxious/avoidant. Secure attachers: give their love freely, are open, honest and pursue goals in relationships with great clarity. They can sometimes seem "boring" because they create little or no drama in a r/l. Anxious attachers: These people need to be constantly reassured by their SO that they love them. They worry about infidelity and are the types to freak out if they call their SO and the call goes to voicemail. They can be clingy, insecure and needy in some respects. Avoidant attachers: These people operate somewhat as lone wolfs in relationships and have great difficulty establishing intimacy. I can see that I am generally a secure attacher with a few anxious traits. My ex-fiancee is definitely an avoidant attacher. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_in_adults#Anxious-preoccupied_attachment Interesting. Reminds me of the addiction/avoidant tendencies described in the love addiction theory of relationships that I read about after my breakup, but much more in depth. Reading theories like this really clicks with me and my past, but at the same time it drives me nuts trying to theorize, categorize, explain, and figure everything out about myself! I don't know what's healthy, sometimes I just wish I was a caveman who's only worries were food, shelter, water, and if I'm lucky a little primitive mating and cave painting.
D78 Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Do you think this is true? I hope so. I like to imagine that NG is getting the same emotional cripple act that I got and isn't benefitting from any insights or maturity he gained whilst with me. If dumpers are the "stay with my SO until I'm completely over it" type, I guess they could also consider their own relationship flaws during that getting over it period. If they did that, they could enter new relationships with knowledge of what they need to work on or change. But, dumpers who cheated on their SOs don't seem like they would have time to consider their own fault in the failure of their relationships before cheating on their SOs, and then leaving them... So, it seems like they would go into the affair with the same emotional baggage unless they were champion deliberators. Even if the new SO is the opposite of the old SO, they would probably face the same problems. Maybe the new SO is able to help them work out those problems (or demand silence!). I don't know if that made any sense or even addressed your question. I've been painting with oil paint, and the fumes are kinda getting to me
Author Fern Posted January 7, 2011 Author Posted January 7, 2011 In your case, you simply were not valued, you were not a priority, it sounds like you were 90 percent roommates, and 10 percent romance. Or something like that. Yes. I agree that's the crux of my problem. I can't imagine how anyone could spend 6 years in a relationship with someone they knew they didn't love. But that's what he did. The knowledge that I would have done anything to make it work and he simply never loved me like that has broken me a little bit. I know it's illogical - but I worry that that's MY relationship pattern, to always be attracted to men who aren't attracted to me. To me, that's more what you should be thinking about. What do you want in your next relationship? Do you want to be with someone who treats you like a priority? Oh god yes, in my head I DO. I want that so much, but I have a suitor currently who couldn't be more interested. He sent beautiful flowers after one date, he's been calling and texting every day this week, he's complimenting me and telling me how much he likes me all the time and all I feel is NUMB. It's all TOO saccharine. It's too much, too soon. What I want - what I REALLY want is a version of my Ex who feels the same way about me that I did about him. It still kills me that he's so crazy about her. That's why I start threads like this. I need to convince myself this is a problem with him and not a problem with me. But of course I know that my ignoring all those red flags for so long WAS my fault. THAT, I'll never do again. I'll never flog a dead horse again the way I did with him. I want him to be happy in the future - just not with HER.
Author Fern Posted January 9, 2011 Author Posted January 9, 2011 So, patterns. I had a big chat with my exes babymama tonight. Very illuminating. I asked her for her take on this idea of patterns. She said something similar back when I first told her we were splitting up - like 'I can't believe he's doing this again'. I just remembered it today. She's a big believer that he has a pattern and was very helpful in making me feel better today. They were together a couple of years. They were first loves. He always said they only lasted as long as they did because she got pregnant. Their daughter was 18 months old when they split up. They were engaged. He did to her what he did to me - lined up a replacement whom he was TOTALLY infatuated with before breaking it off. The replacement was very like his current GF - Babymama and I have a lot in common. I came after Babymama's replacement. So that's 4 fairly serious relationships in the past decade - with a discernible pattern there. From girl who is intelligent and stable but more interested in him than he is in her(babymama) - to mental case, drama queen (girl 2), to stable girl he doesn't love (me) to current hot mess drama queen (NG). Odds on there will be another nice one after the hot mess falls apart... Anyway, I was telling Babymama about our Ex seeing me out on a date last weekend and she was adamant that he would be driven wild with jealousy. I'm not so sure but she insisted that even though he had zero interest in her after they split, his need to have his ego stroked meant he tried to keep her on the hook every time it seemed like she was doing better - only to run for the hills if she recipricated. 8 months after he dumped her for her replacement, she said he slept with her behind the replacement's back. He'd been sniffing around her for a while telling her how much he missed her etc - and she fell for it. Even WORSE - whilst he was with ME, a few days before the babymama's wedding, he told her he'd been having sex dreams about her! She was due to get married in less than a week and he decided to test the waters to see if she could still be lured in. Just for an ego stroke!! Sweet jesus! We attended her wedding together. We sat at the family table with their daughter! She told me to be very careful around him - she never had the NC option because of their daughter - but she thinks that once I'm on speaking terms with him he'll be plying me with all this same bull**** to feed his ego. Especially since I seem (outwardly, as far as he can see) to be moving on. She knows him longer than I do and probably just as well and sees his behaviour with a lot less bias and more distance than I do. As far as she's concerned, the fact he saw me with another man will be eating him up with jealousy - despite the fact he's already in a new relationship of several months. :-D But she warned me - it means nothing - it'll be all about his ego. Fortunately, he won't break NC - and there's no chance of me doing it. All of this made me feel really strong and happy. Glad that I'm no longer with him and adamant that if he ever tries any of this cr*p on me, I'm not biting.
BlindRage Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 LOL I'm reading on the OW OM and.... I can see why it cheers you up. It certainly put a smile on my face knowing that not every cheater is happy.
Author Fern Posted January 9, 2011 Author Posted January 9, 2011 LOL I'm reading on the OW OM and.... I can see why it cheers you up. It certainly put a smile on my face knowing that not every cheater is happy. I love it. Some of them are utterly deluded and completely amoral! I'd rather feel like this than be one of them. They're like spoilt children crying because they can't have someone else's toys.
melenkurion Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 I think I have something slightly in common with Fern's ex (oh noes) in that I have a pattern not so much within relationships, but a sort of relationship cycle I go through. I think I can see that after a major breakup, I tend to date someone safe. There aren't a lot of data points (two major breakups), so I can't be sure, and I am counting the guy I am currently dating. Within the (major) relationships: I can't really see any patterns as such. I've only really had three. I tend to over-romanticise the first relationship so much I can't be objective about it (it was circumstances that ended the relationship, neither of us wanted it to end).
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