EasyHeart Posted January 1, 2011 Posted January 1, 2011 Didn't have a chance to add this, but again, I was using the word "narcissistic" rather loosely. When people hear it, they probably associate it with a pathological disorder. I meant in the realm of what's normal. Arrogant might be a better descriptor.That's how I read your posts. "Narcissism" is one of those words that started out as a psychological term, but has moved into the everyday language. I figured you meant "conceited" or "arrogant", not that you were diagnosing some sort of psychological disorder.
EasyHeart Posted January 1, 2011 Posted January 1, 2011 Sky: You've reached an important point in your self-analysis, but the real question is "What do you do with this information?" I was in a similar place as you in my younger days. In my case, I was always dating "crazy women". Once I realized this, I was able to place the blame on my failed relationships to the fact that "she was crazy" and I thought that all I needed to do was keep searching until I finally found a woman who wasn't crazy. The problem was that "sane" women didn't interest me; they bored me and I kept being drawn to the "crazy" women. So I thought my choice was to either be in a boring relationship with a "sane" woman or to be in a fun relationship with a "crazy" woman. The problem, of course, was that either way I wasn't happy. And either way, the relationship couldn't work. My breakthrough came when I realized and accepted that I was choosing to date and choosing to be attracted to these "crazy" women. When we are continually and repeatedly attracted to unhealthy people (and by "unhealthy" I mean both people who are actually screwed up and people who are fine, but just bad choices for us), the problem isn't with them -- it's with us. And the challenge is to look deep inside and figure out WHY we are making these unhealthy choices in romantic partners. So I think the best thing you could do with this realization is ask yourself "Why am I attracted to arrogant/selfish/emotionally unavailable men?" There is very likely something in your past that is causing you to make these unhealthy choices in your romantic relationships. Once you figure out what that is, confront it, and deal with it, you will suddenly find yourself being attracted to emotionally healthy and emotionally available men. And relationships will no longer be all that difficult. It seem counter-intuitive, but being attracted to someone is not instinct; it is a choice. Once you accept that, you can start to change your choices. When we find ourselves attracted to unhealthy people, it means that we have to fix something inside of ourselves. It sucks, it's hard to do, and it's very scary, but it can be done. I've done it, and so have lots of other people. So can you. The problem with you isn't that these men are jerks; it's that you are choosing to be attracted to jerks (the same way that I was attracted to "crazy" women). Now you need to figure out why that is. Good luck!
zengirl Posted January 1, 2011 Posted January 1, 2011 Sure. There are lots of men in that age range who are looking for LTRs. My point was simply that some aren't, and there is nothing wrong (morally or psychologically) with being hard-working and ambitious and prioritizing your career over dating/marrying. Whether you want to date them, of course, is up to you. (And implicit in my post was that someone like Sky shouldn't). And it's not necessarily about money. If you want to meet some over-worked, stressed-out people, talk to some young public defenders! It's not a gender-thing, either; plenty of women in this age group are career-oriented, too. The simple reality is that if you're working 80 hours a week, traveling a lot, constantly under tough deadlines, etc., you just don't have a lot of time or energy to deal with relationships. I simply wanted to point out that it's a legitimate life-choice and doesn't mean you're selfish or narcissistic. Oh, my mistake then--- I thought you were saying it was the norm in this age range, which I think is overblown. Studies show most men in their 20s-30s ARE looking to get married. I agree it's a valid choice not to be looking for a LTR, really whatever your reason, and certainly when you're working on yourself. I've met many workaholics who still WANT (and have!) LTRs and marriages though. I used to be a workaholic, and I'm still pretty darn close. Between my PhD classes, teaching middle school English, and being on so many Education nonprofit committees . . . I tend to work 60+ hours every week. Still have a boyfriend. His work swings back and forth---some weeks, 80+, some weeks barely 30 hours. I don't think a lack of time always means someone isn't LTR material. A friend of mine is a medical resident, who just finished his internship. . . I cannot imagine anyone with less time! He just got married this year to a great girl. I think character (not good or bad, just the type) and values factor into it as much as time. Men who feel good about where they are with their career, busy or not, and who value relationships and marriage will start early, regardless of the time available, if they find a suitable match. The biggest issue to finding one might be the time, though, but it wouldn't keep them from nurturing a relationship. I do agree that men who aren't happy with their career --- wherever it is, successful or not --- and who are always aiming for something new are less likely to want a LTR, but I think that this is a personality thing, not an age or natural thing everyone goes through. The problem is that you are kind of excusing picking the wrong men with "Well, it is because I like smart, witty guys and they're all jerks!" The problem isn't liking smart guys. It seems like you are drawn to guys with an openly mean sense of humor, that you find a spiteful type of wit appealing. Guys like that are telegraphing the fact that they are jerks and it is the jerky stuff that you are drawn to. Yes, they're intelligence has nothing to do with their jerkitude. Somehow tying to the two traits together does you no good. I agree with that girl.
Author northern_sky Posted January 2, 2011 Author Posted January 2, 2011 So I think the best thing you could do with this realization is ask yourself "Why am I attracted to arrogant/selfish/emotionally unavailable men?" There is very likely something in your past that is causing you to make these unhealthy choices in your romantic relationships. Once you figure out what that is, confront it, and deal with it, you will suddenly find yourself being attracted to emotionally healthy and emotionally available men. And relationships will no longer be all that difficult. If you don't mind my asking did you work through these issues from your past alone or with therapy? I've known for awhile why I'm attracted to this type. It's a combination of low self esteem + the male figures I had growing up. Yet realizing this hasn't weakened my attraction. So what's the next step? It seem counter-intuitive, but being attracted to someone is not instinct; it is a choice. Once you accept that, you can start to change your choices. When we find ourselves attracted to unhealthy people, it means that we have to fix something inside of ourselves. It sucks, it's hard to do, and it's very scary, but it can be done. I've done it, and so have lots of other people. So can you. The problem with you isn't that these men are jerks; it's that you are choosing to be attracted to jerks (the same way that I was attracted to "crazy" women). Now you need to figure out why that is. Good luck! Thanks! I really hope you're right that attraction is a choice. That gives me hope. You mentioned that you tried at first to force it by dating sane women, but you still weren't feeling it. So you were trying to make the right choice, but it wasn't happening at first. What caused the psychological breakthrough for you? I agree with you that self-work is probably the most important puzzle piece. I'm hoping my attraction naturally changes once I am emotionally more healthy. I just hope that is enough.
catgotyourtongue Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 Northern I don't know you but have recently read a lot of your posts. You are obviously highly intelligent, aware, well spoken, speak your mind, confident, etc. Is it possible, and as I said, I don't know you at all, but, is it possible you are trying to date people that are way too much like you?? Do you pose a problem because you are challenging, strong, opinionated, direct...? I am not at all saying these are bad things, but I believe, my humble opinion, a lot of men while they say they want an equal, or a this or that, they often want something different. If they are really quiet, they do better with someone who brings them out of their shell. If they are bold, brazen, agressive, maybe they think they want that, but in reality, when they have it, it contrasts, combusts. Maybe you are staring into the eyes of yourself, and fighting yourself and can't win. I don't know, just a guess if maybe they are too much like you. You need to find a man who rocks your socks off in bed, one you want to devour, but who has control of you in a good way, in bed, lol and he has your number and can teach you a few things. You seem like a leader, maybe you need to find someone who either is more passive than you, but smart, or just knows how to handle your strong personality and not fight against it, but appreciate it, and all sides. Sometimes it sounds like you want an opponent, nor a lover or partner or mate. What do you really want? I hear you say you could not want a guy who is on LS. that's a strong and dismissive statement. My guess is, in all due respect, that you dismiss men this way. It can be highly damaging to do this. I use to be dismissive and I had no idea how much it hurt men and f*ed with them, I just thought I was being funny or cocky...but you may need or want to take a strong look at yourself, and see that you just might be intense and strong and willful, and not work well with the same.... I could be totally wrong, as i am pretty new hear, but my thought is that it takes a really strong man to handle you, you are a handul (SO AM I so it is not a cut down, I promise) I always wanted to date someone with x,y.z and wanted them to like this and that and be into wine or art, or cats, lol or whatever...the man that stole my heart and whom I have never forgotten and we are still in touch and bonded, closely, is a man that did not fall into these things I thought he wanted. Granted he was drop drop dead gorgeous, stunning and fit, but that's all I thought he was. Not educated, (in the college sense) a country boy (I am city) and lived a totally different lifestyle than me, worlds apart. YET he had my heart. He got to my physically, OMG he was just brilliant and thats how we connected, initally, but what got me falling for him were all those things not on my list, checklist....so, perhaps you are just barking up the wrong tree and trying to control it all too much. Expand your horizons and ease up a little...:-) hope I did not offend but you seem strong and I have read lots of your posts so I figured you could take some straight talk and not be offended.....bothered. Peace out
Joe Normal Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 If you don't mind my asking did you work through these issues from your past alone or with therapy? I've known for awhile why I'm attracted to this type. It's a combination of low self esteem + the male figures I had growing up. Yet realizing this hasn't weakened my attraction. So what's the next step? What's wrong with being attracted to that type? Just find one who is also a fairly honourable person. A**holes can have ethics too, you know. Oh, and if attraction was a choice, then there'd be lots of lovely 75 year old spinsters with men queuing up to marry them for their great life experiences and enjoyable personalities, and everyone would be bisexual.
Joe Normal Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 It seem counter-intuitive, but being attracted to someone is not instinct; it is a choice. Once you accept that, you can start to change your choices. When we find ourselves attracted to unhealthy people, it means that we have to fix something inside of ourselves. It sucks, it's hard to do, and it's very scary, but it can be done. I've done it, and so have lots of other people. So can you. Do you have any evidence that attraction is a choice? This goes against everything I've observed in people. IMO you are confusing two issues here. Firstly, there is a 'type' you can identify, I agree with that. Secondly, you are assuming they are all the same i.e. crazy in an unhealthy way. This is where I disagree. Some of the 'crazy' ones will be unhealthy - e.g. lying unfaithful bitches, in trouble with the law, drug addicts etc. But some will be healthy - e.g. just acting unconventional, a bit wild but not actually doing bad stuff. That is the type to go for - the ones that generate instinctive attraction, but don't also bring up loads of red flags. If a woman goes for smart sarcastic *******s, then she just needs to filter out the ones who are also *******s *to her*. There are plenty of smart sarcastic *******s who are nice people to their friends & girlfriend/wife. Thinking she is going to be happy with a nice guy Norbert is just a pipe dream. She'll end up marrying some chump like this, and then cheating with a smart sarcastic ******* - who treats her like crap lol.
OceanGirl Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 I do not believe that attraction is a choice.
Joe Normal Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 There's nothing wrong with recognizing that I have a bad people picker and tend to be drawn to guys who aren't relationship material. If I denied this, I'd keep chasing the wrong men. What makes you assume that you are going to find someone who is relationship material, or that you are relationship material yourself? Isn't it possible that you might be better off having shorter romances than the norm? Maybe your attraction to 'unavailable' men is because you aren't interested in a more serious relationship where you settle down. I advise you to ask whether you are pursuing what you actually want, or what you *think* you ought to want. IMO it sounds like you are trying to fit into society's notions of what people should look for in relationships, rather than going for something that actually suits your own nature.
Joe Normal Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 This is the conclusion I've reached in trying to examine my broken people picker. Every guy I'm attracted to aside from the fluke of my ex shares these traits in common: narcissism, extreme verbal and analytical talent, dismissiveness, and arrogance. Basically the embodiment of my type seems to be a young Gore Vidal (if he were straight). I am sure it's because I was surrounded by men growing up who were variations on this theme. It's disturbing to me, because I know any involvement with these guys will only lead to heartbreak, yet I feel zero attraction to guys who fall outside of this mold. You are making a strange assumption - that "any involvement with these guys will only lead to heartbreak". How do you know that? What if being involved with the *right* type of guy like this would end up with you having a great, lifelong relationship? What is it that makes you so sure it won't work?
Joe Normal Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 Thirded. Seems there's a certain familiarity in it for you because of your childhood. But you now recognise that it's an issue. Next step is to do something about it. It's an 'issue' like a guy being attracted to busty young blondes is an 'issue'. What she needs to do about it is *find some guys like that* and then date them.
runner Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 I do not believe that attraction is a choice. neither do i- hence the misery here and everywhere... but thankfully we do have a choice as to whom we spend our time with.
Joe Normal Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 And I am only really attracted to guys that are realistically out of my league That's ok, I am only really attracted to <30 year old Angelina Jolie lookalies with no kids or addictions. Real common on the ground, they are
zengirl Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 I do not believe that attraction is a choice. I believe it is very much shaped by our choices, and sometimes in strange ways. I don't believe you can "choose" to be attracted to a particular person, but I believe you can change your overall attraction settings through time and personal growth. I think even in neutral (not good for you, not bad for you) ways that attraction is shaped by our experiences, decisions, choices, and attitudes, and while we don't choose ALL of that, we choose a good portion. For instance, I never really found Asian guys attractive till I lived in Asia. Now, even in the States, I find more attractive Asian guys. It's just something that constantly seeing Asian people everywhere did to my brain. It's a natural product of such proximity to those features. I use that as a very neutral -- it's neither beneficial, nor detrimental to me really -- way I've seen my own attraction "settings" change recently. I think we can change our attraction "settings" for personality and even, to a degree, aesthetics. Certainly chemistry plays a role, but I think at least some of it is based on who we are and the choices we make. If you make healthy choices overall, you're more likely to make healthy choices in dating. This has been statistically bourne out time and time again, and it makes sense. Healthful living cannot be compartmentalized. For most people who have rocky love lives (consistently; into every life, some heartbreak will fall!) that have undesirable patterns, other parts of their lives are not the happiest too. It all works together. What makes you assume that you are going to find someone who is relationship material, or that you are relationship material yourself? Isn't it possible that you might be better off having shorter romances than the norm? Maybe your attraction to 'unavailable' men is because you aren't interested in a more serious relationship where you settle down. I advise you to ask whether you are pursuing what you actually want, or what you *think* you ought to want. IMO it sounds like you are trying to fit into society's notions of what people should look for in relationships, rather than going for something that actually suits your own nature. This is a fairly decent point. I don't know one way or another about the OP or where she is, but I do think that some people are only in an emotional place to have STRs and that when they fight against that (not change themselves into people who can have an LTR, as I think that can be done, but NOT change themselves and then expect it to work when they try) and cause themselves much unhappiness. Generally to change your results, you have to change yourself. It's hard to know in exactly what way sometimes, though, so I don't mean to make that sound easy. And accepting yourself and where you are -- and what you really want, outside of societal forces -- is a great first step.
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