Author northern_sky Posted December 31, 2010 Author Posted December 31, 2010 Smart men are in high demand. In academia (actually in my department) where everybody pretty much has a PhD in hard science - ALL men are married or in LTRs (from 28-58). Large % are quite unattractive too. Conversely, about 50% of the women (28-58) are perma-single. This lines up with my experience - smart men are in much higher demand than smart women (sorry for going on a bit of a tangent..). Unfortunately, smart men are better at emotional manipulation too. Yep, I know a lot of really smart men who shoot for women who are just "presentably" smart. In other words, a girlfriend who won't totally embarrass them at a party.
Author northern_sky Posted December 31, 2010 Author Posted December 31, 2010 Yes it was intentional. As tbf points out I was showing you what I was telling you. Besides, how could it not be intentional? I wrote it. If I intended something else I would have written that instead. You seem to need help so I will let you in on the secret. There are two important distinctions to be made between smart *******s who are fundamentally nice and smart *******s who are fundamentally narcissists. (Yes I am describing myself.) Nice *******s have self-indulgent angst for western culture because it has discarded aesthetic as meaningless and makes virtue out of ugliness. Narcissistic *******s have self-indulgent angst for the world because God made it, not them, and narcissists don't thank God.Narcissist *******s love no one. Nice *******s love their mothers. OK, that was heavy-handed.
welikeincrowds Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 OK, that was heavy-handed. That's really good advice I just gave you. I'm always heavy-handed.
Author northern_sky Posted December 31, 2010 Author Posted December 31, 2010 That's really good advice I just gave you. I'm always heavy-handed. You're really in love with your own cleverness, aren't you?
dispatch3d Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 That just means they have low emotional intelligence, but they can be extremely gifted in everything else. Every very smart person I have met has had very high emotional intelligence. Unbelievably high. Most people would not/never have a negative opinion of them. Their problem tends to be they aren't "interesting" enough or something. It's hard to describe, but they have very little drama surrounding them so there is less draw to be their friend. The inverse/opposite of this would be the narcissist who typically has a large amount of drama surrounding him/her (because they create it). I couldn't disagree more. I find guys who are extremely smart tend to be MORE narcissistic on average, sadly. Your view is clouded by who you do and don't want to ****. Narcissists are "smart", but the smartest people aren't narcissists, and the vast majority of smart people aren't narcissists. It's like you're saying the "cool" people in school are smart too. Hate to break it to you, but they aren't super smart. Sorry. They are just your friends/who you want to do and that is why you perceive them as such. OK, this is probably true -- that narcissistic men have an edge with the ladies. Narcissists have an advantage with PEOPLE in general. Period. Both men and women. My narcissistic friend has a stupid amount of people on his faceook, and he has never added anyone. He doesn't like going on msn because like 10 people start messaging him, and he quite frankly doesn't give two ****s what they have to say. Not kidding. This is so, so off. I mean taste varies widely, but all else being equal most women will easily choose the smarter guy. That doesn't mean they like asocial nerds, but confident + smart is a lethal combo for a guy. They do vary, but not wildly. Some guys are players, some guys get no pussy at all. That's very true. It goes to much higher polarities with guys than girls do. You probably don't fully realize this because you are a girl.
Surrealist Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Hey! I'm smart!!! But I'm a nice guy, a boring doormat pussy so probably don't amount much to a narcissistic ahole, you know... a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless steaming pile of cow dung, figuratively speaking. But I'm working diligently at it!
pandagirl Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 I think maybe the term "narcissist" is being used rather loosely in this thread. Implying someone is a narcissist is saying they're manipulative, arrogant and hugely egotistical, at the cost of exploiting others. I feel like a better word would just be plain "selfish." I don't think these guys have some grand plan, and that they were out to get her, but more that they're just really ignorant and dumb about interpersonal relationships; that they just care more about their needs than someone else.
paddington bear Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 My type is the 'sensitive' type, doesn't say much, people wonder about them because they are not the most outgoing, they might be labelled shy, or many times eccentric. Due to being sensitive they usually are nice guys who can express their emotions and so on. These guys let me in to their inner world, share stuff with me that they don't do with other people and I feel 'special' that I am the girl chosen for that. Then I realise that yes, they are sensitive, but only sensitive about themselves and what they feel. Totally insensitive about me and my feelings and they end up hurting me while I end up as an emotional crutch for them, with them too wrapped up in themselves and not giving a s**t about what I feel. On the intelligence, cleverness point, I like intelligent guys, they don't have to be Phd intelligent, but maybe they have read a lot, or know how to do stuff that I don't...but these guys, even the sensitive arty, intelligent, shy types, all want some silent, Stepford wife type...maybe that's what all men want...sigh At the moment, my major warning bell is if it is all about them even in a subtle, sharing stories way..."so enough talking about me, what about me?" kind of thing. I get sucked in so easily. Feel like we are having good conversation, when in fact you realise you are being groomed to be some moon orbiting around planet him....
that girl Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 I couldn't disagree more. I find guys who are extremely smart tend to be MORE narcissistic on average, sadly. I don't find this to be true at all. I'm a reasonably smart person and I have a lot of crazy smart friends- multiple high school and college valedictorians, numerous PhDs. The smartest guys I've ever known were a group of guys who were all getting their PhDs in theoretical physics and they were all geeky, sweet guys. I find the people who are narcissistic are generally the ones who are kind of smart, but not that impressive. Some high achievers in business and law are narcissists, but they're usually more extremely driven than extremely smart. narcissistic men have an edge with the ladies. I think narcissistic men have an edge with two kinds of women: one who are looking for someone who makes a lot and will believe a guy's bull and those who like drama. When I think about guys I've dated or my friends have dated (and we all tend to be smart and nice), I can't think of one I would call narcissistic. Sure, there were some immature guys or selfish guys, particularly in college but teenagers are all kind of nutso. For the most part girls DO NOT like smart guys The thing is, smart girls like smart guys. But if you're going after a nail technician because she's hot she's unlikely to be the kind of person who would consider a masters in engineering a boon. My guess is the OP enjoys drama, though maybe not consciously.
Yer_Blues Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Yeah, I agree with others in the thread. Being intelligent includes emotional intelligence. People who are aware of the complexity of the world realize that the more you learn, the less you know. Also, you mistake achievement many times for intelligence I think. People can be high achievers without being particularly intelligent. People forget, also, that judging other people's intelligence is somewhat subjective on one's own intelligence and perception of what intelligence is.
OceanGirl Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Random observation (I am drunk happy new year everyone!) I think that n_sky is more stringent than me when it comes to intelligence and I am probably more stringent with looks (not counting the guys I go on first dates with but more the ones I keep going out with). I need a base level if intelligence that is hard to define but I can pretty much establish if it's there within the first few minutes of conversation. Aside from that, I put more emphasis on personalities I find interesting. I am turned off by super intelligent men that are intelligent in a boring sort of way (usually too anal and uptight).
OceanGirl Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Hey! I'm smart!!! But I'm a nice guy, a boring doormat pussy so probably don't amount much to a narcissistic ahole, you know... a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless steaming pile of cow dung, figuratively speaking. But I'm working diligently at it! Hey S - you are far from boring
harmfulsweetz Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 I'm attracted to guys who are over-confident, often unavailable, etc etc. I think we all at some point, gravitate to one kind of person-maybe it's transferance? What I mean is-maybe we get out of one R or thing with A, then we get into something else with B, who shares similar qualities with A because we are searching for A in everyone we meet, we are setting that standard thinking that's our type, that's what we go for. I'm probably talking sh*t. The last guy I was obsessed with (and we hooked up) was the epitome of everything I go for in a guy. He didn't call again, and 2 months later, I still obsess over him. Yet, my ex of 3 years who is the exact opposite of what I normally go for, I got over him within a week. It's craziness. I now understand that it's me. I think it boils down to a self-esteem issue. So long as we have these issues, we'll never successfully pick someone right for us, and always be drawn to these disasters. I have a theory it's because we are like fulfilling a self-fulfilling prophecy with these men. I believe it'll never work out for me, I'm not good enough for it etc, thus picking guys not right. I don't believe it's anything to do with these guys at all, it's all internal. Perhaps we like a project, to deflect from the damage which is already done on the inside, but there's nearly always a reason why we're attracted to who we are attracted to, and much of it revolves around us, and not them.
OceanGirl Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 I'm attracted to guys who are over-confident, often unavailable, etc etc. I think we all at some point, gravitate to one kind of person-maybe it's transferance? What I mean is-maybe we get out of one R or thing with A, then we get into something else with B, who shares similar qualities with A because we are searching for A in everyone we meet, we are setting that standard thinking that's our type, that's what we go for. I'm probably talking sh*t. The last guy I was obsessed with (and we hooked up) was the epitome of everything I go for in a guy. He didn't call again, and 2 months later, I still obsess over him. Yet, my ex of 3 years who is the exact opposite of what I normally go for, I got over him within a week. It's craziness. I now understand that it's me. I think it boils down to a self-esteem issue. So long as we have these issues, we'll never successfully pick someone right for us, and always be drawn to these disasters. I have a theory it's because we are like fulfilling a self-fulfilling prophecy with these men. I believe it'll never work out for me, I'm not good enough for it etc, thus picking guys not right. I don't believe it's anything to do with these guys at all, it's all internal. Perhaps we like a project, to deflect from the damage which is already done on the inside, but there's nearly always a reason why we're attracted to who we are attracted to, and much of it revolves around us, and not them. I agree with most of this. I think that I am attracted to "interesting" people that often happen to abuse drugs and alcohol, party too hard (and these men are in their late 20's-early30's), have had many sexual partners and are not really relationship minded. Now, I like that they are interesting - but what often comes along with interesting (not always but in most cases) is that undesirable lifestyle - making a solid, stable LTR impossible. Thus, by picking these men or being drawn to them I am essentially self-perpetuating cycle of pain, rejection and discouragement that takes me further and further away from my goal of a LTR.
EasyHeart Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Two thoughts: 1. Much of what you describe is simply "men in their 20s and early 30s". If my memory is correct, you're in your mid-20s, so I suspect most of the men you date are in that age range. It's pretty common for educated, ambitious men in that age range to be focused on their careers and have no interest in LTRs. That doesn't make them selfish or narcissistic; they are just prioritizing their careers over women. It's perfectly healthy and normal. 2. From reading many of your posts, I don't think it's a big stretch to say that you have pretty low self-esteem. The low self-esteem woman and narcissistic/emotionally unavailable man are pretty much a textbook example of a dysfunctional couple; they are perpetually attracted to each other and will perpetually fail as a couple. If that's what you're dealing with, then we're back to the old cliche: work on yourself. After you deal with your underlying issues, you'll find that you're not attracted to this kind of man anymore.
Author northern_sky Posted December 31, 2010 Author Posted December 31, 2010 People forget, also, that judging other people's intelligence is somewhat subjective on one's own intelligence and perception of what intelligence is. Good point!
Mme. Chaucer Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Ditto. I also find that men of this type do best with women who are passive and sometimes even less intelligent than they are, even if they claim to respect women who "challenge" them. This is probably why attempts at relationships with these types have been failures. They do best when they're with women who aren't on their intellectual wavelength, imo. A couple of observations: You are always quick to apply diagnostic labels to people, and to make judgments about their intelligence. You don't seem particularly perceptive about these kinds of things; it appears more like you seek external explanations (excuses) for the places that your own behavior and choices take you. From my perspective, doing this is 100% counterproductive for you and helps to keep you safely within your own narrowly defined parameters of behavior. And, relieves you for personal accountability. Respectfully, I ask you: why do you need to go to a place of putting other people down in your efforts to analyze your own situation and patterns? Those likely have nothing to do with "narcissism" or intelligence. The guys involved are probably not even narcissists at all, and the women they like may very well have higher IQ's than yours. You can't know from your distance. All you really have to work with is yourself. I agree with this: Much of what you describe is simply "men in their 20s and early 30s". If my memory is correct, you're in your mid-20s, so I suspect most of the men you date are in that age range. It's pretty common for educated, ambitious men in that age range to be focused on their careers and have no interest in LTRs. That doesn't make them selfish or narcissistic; they are just prioritizing their careers over women. It's perfectly healthy and normal.
Author northern_sky Posted December 31, 2010 Author Posted December 31, 2010 (edited) I don't find this to be true at all. I'm a reasonably smart person and I have a lot of crazy smart friends- multiple high school and college valedictorians, numerous PhDs. The smartest guys I've ever known were a group of guys who were all getting their PhDs in theoretical physics and they were all geeky, sweet guys. I find the people who are narcissistic are generally the ones who are kind of smart, but not that impressive. Some high achievers in business and law are narcissists, but they're usually more extremely driven than extremely smart. Bear in mind my OP is in relation to guys who are verbally extremely bright in particular. I think these types tend to be more narcissistic on average for sure than your typical science geek. Again, totally disagree that narcissists are just the ones who are "kind of smart." It varies, And I think this probably has to do with the crowd you run with. A good many famous writers, achievers and thinkers are narcissistic, even predating their fame. This becomes clear if you read a lot of biographies, interviews, etc. Also, I've known some mathy narcissists as well. I went to an extremely competitive high school, and there were a few super genius guys I knew who were EXTREMELY arrogant and vain. And these were young men who regularly won math competitions at the national level. I guess their egos got a lot of inflating. I think narcissistic men have an edge with two kinds of women: one who are looking for someone who makes a lot and will believe a guy's bull and those who like drama. When I think about guys I've dated or my friends have dated (and we all tend to be smart and nice), I can't think of one I would call narcissistic. Sure, there were some immature guys or selfish guys, particularly in college but teenagers are all kind of nutso. The thing is, smart girls like smart guys. But if you're going after a nail technician because she's hot she's unlikely to be the kind of person who would consider a masters in engineering a boon. My guess is the OP enjoys drama, though maybe not consciously. I said all else being equal women on average will choose the smarter man. Sure, smart men have far more draw for smart women, but I think even among average women a slightly smarter guy will have more allure than an average or below guy, although maybe only to the threshold of geekiness. Edited December 31, 2010 by northern_sky
Author northern_sky Posted December 31, 2010 Author Posted December 31, 2010 Two thoughts: 1. Much of what you describe is simply "men in their 20s and early 30s". If my memory is correct, you're in your mid-20s, so I suspect most of the men you date are in that age range. It's pretty common for educated, ambitious men in that age range to be focused on their careers and have no interest in LTRs. That doesn't make them selfish or narcissistic; they are just prioritizing their careers over women. It's perfectly healthy and normal. 2. From reading many of your posts, I don't think it's a big stretch to say that you have pretty low self-esteem. The low self-esteem woman and narcissistic/emotionally unavailable man are pretty much a textbook example of a dysfunctional couple; they are perpetually attracted to each other and will perpetually fail as a couple. If that's what you're dealing with, then we're back to the old cliche: work on yourself. After you deal with your underlying issues, you'll find that you're not attracted to this kind of man anymore. These are good points.
Author northern_sky Posted December 31, 2010 Author Posted December 31, 2010 (edited) Yeah, I agree with others in the thread. Being intelligent includes emotional intelligence. People who are aware of the complexity of the world realize that the more you learn, the less you know. You mean your definition of intelligence does. This goes back to what you said below about your own intelligence level and subjective take on what intelligence is. If you believe that defining intelligence is subjective, then you shouldn't be presenting your opinion as fact. Even within the space of a few paragraphs you are undermining your own argument. Hmm... Also, you mistake achievement many times for intelligence I think. People can be high achievers without being particularly intelligent. Not true. I do respect achievement, but when it comes to judging and appreciating intelligence I only really care about how someone converses. People forget, also, that judging other people's intelligence is somewhat subjective on one's own intelligence and perception of what intelligence is. Edited December 31, 2010 by northern_sky
Author northern_sky Posted December 31, 2010 Author Posted December 31, 2010 I'm attracted to guys who are over-confident, often unavailable, etc etc. I think we all at some point, gravitate to one kind of person-maybe it's transferance? What I mean is-maybe we get out of one R or thing with A, then we get into something else with B, who shares similar qualities with A because we are searching for A in everyone we meet, we are setting that standard thinking that's our type, that's what we go for. I'm probably talking sh*t. The last guy I was obsessed with (and we hooked up) was the epitome of everything I go for in a guy. He didn't call again, and 2 months later, I still obsess over him. Yet, my ex of 3 years who is the exact opposite of what I normally go for, I got over him within a week. It's craziness. I now understand that it's me. I think it boils down to a self-esteem issue. So long as we have these issues, we'll never successfully pick someone right for us, and always be drawn to these disasters. I have a theory it's because we are like fulfilling a self-fulfilling prophecy with these men. I believe it'll never work out for me, I'm not good enough for it etc, thus picking guys not right. I don't believe it's anything to do with these guys at all, it's all internal. Perhaps we like a project, to deflect from the damage which is already done on the inside, but there's nearly always a reason why we're attracted to who we are attracted to, and much of it revolves around us, and not them. Yeah, it definitely connects to my low self esteem. I can also relate to what you said about getting more obsessed over guys who fit my type, even if I am with them for a far shorter time.
Author northern_sky Posted December 31, 2010 Author Posted December 31, 2010 I am turned off by super intelligent men that are intelligent in a boring sort of way (usually too anal and uptight). me too... -------
Yer_Blues Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 You mean your definition of intelligence does. This goes back to what you said below about your own level of intelligence and subjective take on what intelligence means. If you believe that defining intelligence is subjective, then you shouldn't be presenting your opinion as fact. Even within the space of a few paragraphs you are undermining your own argument. Hmm... Not true. I do respect achievement, but when it comes to judging and appreciating intelligence I only really care about how someone converses. You mean that you are INTERPRETING that I am presenting my opinion as fact. There is no absolute, "factual" definition of intelligence or universally accepted way to measure it. What argument am I making that you think I'm undermining? The only thing I've really even argued is that intelligent people, as I see it (I'll state this explicitly this time), have emotional intelligence (another subjective term), and are more self-aware than unintelligent people. Simply point out where I undermine this so I know what you are referencing. Your "Hmm" seems a little pissy to me . I hope you know that nothing I've said in this thread was intended to be insulting to anybody. I find the idea of a bunch of random people on an Internet forum arguing over what intelligence is to be kind of humorous to begin with. Who is going to come in here with the attitude that they are unintelligent? Everybody's view is going to incorporate their own ego and intelligence into the equation, that's all I was pointing out.
Author northern_sky Posted December 31, 2010 Author Posted December 31, 2010 Your "Hmm" seems a little pissy to me . I hope you know that nothing I've said in this thread was intended to be insulting to anybody. I find the idea of a bunch of random people on an Internet forum arguing over what intelligence is to be kind of humorous to begin with. Who is going to come in here with the attitude that they are unintelligent? Everybody's view is going to incorporate their own ego and intelligence into the equation, that's all I was pointing out. Well I found your original statement a "little pissy."
zengirl Posted December 31, 2010 Posted December 31, 2010 Two thoughts: 1. Much of what you describe is simply "men in their 20s and early 30s". If my memory is correct, you're in your mid-20s, so I suspect most of the men you date are in that age range. It's pretty common for educated, ambitious men in that age range to be focused on their careers and have no interest in LTRs. That doesn't make them selfish or narcissistic; they are just prioritizing their careers over women. It's perfectly healthy and normal. 2. From reading many of your posts, I don't think it's a big stretch to say that you have pretty low self-esteem. The low self-esteem woman and narcissistic/emotionally unavailable man are pretty much a textbook example of a dysfunctional couple; they are perpetually attracted to each other and will perpetually fail as a couple. If that's what you're dealing with, then we're back to the old cliche: work on yourself. After you deal with your underlying issues, you'll find that you're not attracted to this kind of man anymore. As far as #1 goes. . . while I do think it's an okay way for men in their twenties to be, I'm 26 and only date men in their mid-twenties to early thirties, and I've never had trouble finding smart, educated, witty, attractive men who want relationships. A lot of men realize that a solid relationship -- not one with a lot of drama -- can help them stabilize their life and career, rather than detract from the energy to put into it. (This can be true for women, too. I focus a lot on my career, but I always enjoy relationships that allow me to nurture myself, others, and my career at the same time.) Most of the smarter, more successful, college-educated men I've known have had an interest in a LTR from the time they graduated. They just don't have an interest in any kind of drama. The most likely exceptions are men who become very wealthy, very fast, and tie their self-worth in with that wealth. They sometimes get overinflated egos. But most of the men with a moderate level of success who are hard-working crave relationships. Personally, a man with too much success too fast worries me. I'm not intimidated, but until I get to know him, I always wonder (a) What will he do if it doesn't last? Did he have time to really form himself? and (b) How tied is he to egoistic and materialistic things? I've definitely met a few men with fast success who broke this mold, but I watched a live-in boyfriend get insta-success and what it did to him, even a very nice guy. Just not my cuppa.
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