Woggle Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 Woggle, let me ask you a hypothetical. Lets say you worked your ass of for years earning a living, hard work, to ultimately achieve a reward. Lets say that reward was money, lots of it. Then you met someone you know nothing of, and she knows of you for whatever reason, or dont. Answer me this. Regardless of your behavior, do you owe her at a minimum 50% of what you have worked to get all of your life? It would depend on how long the marriage is but I don't agree with being able to leave a homemaker high and dry especially if the man caused the divorce.
zengirl Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 It would depend on how long the marriage is but I don't agree with being able to leave a homemaker high and dry especially if the man caused the divorce. That's exactly what's reasonable about it, yes. And male homemakers shouldn't be left high and dry either (especially if the woman causes the divorce).
AverageJoe Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 It would depend on how long the marriage is but I don't agree with being able to leave a homemaker high and dry especially if the man caused the divorce. She signed up for it.
AverageJoe Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 That's exactly what's reasonable about it, yes. And male homemakers shouldn't be left high and dry either (especially if the woman causes the divorce). Wow, that is reasonable to take a mans worth? Hard earned worth, before he ever met you? You said, yes.
Ms. Joolie Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 If he knows he's happy with me and can see himself being with me forever, then what more does it take? I believe it takes knowing what you want and taking a stand for that! You want to be married because you know what that means for you, and no one is going to take that away from you. I am the same way. I want to be married because of what it means for me. And I am in the same place you are. In an ideal world, my boyfriend and I would be married by now, but as it is there are too many reasons to not get married. I don't care for the reasons to NOT be married. For me, there is no good reason to marry anyway other than for love. I'm not going to ever try to convince him of marriage. I'm simply going to makes sure he is clear on what I want (marriage, because of what it means to me), and I am clear on what he wants. If together we can't create a relationship that is fulfilling for us both, than that's my sign to stay single! So I'm going to have these series of casual conversations with him and end the drama by spring. That's the time line I've placed on it all, because I don't want to go years and years through this, you know? Thanks for the thread, your question and all the replies have been helpful in looking at my situation as well!
dreamingoftigers Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 This is what you have to look forward to fella's. Live it up. Because men don't expect to keep 50% of their joint worth after a divorce, right? And men in general are so charitable to their cheating wives? Do you think a man like Woggle would be very kind to his wife financially if she pulled what the first wife did? Do you think he would be "My dear, take it all. I can't bear to think of you and the other man without our Ipad on a Saturday night, what if you miss your hair appointment?" Don't think so. Aside from the financials, I wouldn't even be harsh to my H if he cheated again. I would simply ask him to leave, even help him pack his stuff to hurry it up, have no contact with him except through lawyers and any counseling to minimize the impact to our daughter. I wouldn't bother fighting with him or saying angry words: there's no point. Plus it would only further any self-righteousness he may have about the whole situation and we would be tied at some level because of our daughter. I would just deal with it. Well men do keep most of their assets after a divorce: even more so in England and South Africa. Yes, fellas, if you cheat on your spouse she will probably leave you and take you for what she can if you signed the pre-nup I stated earlier. And if she cheats on you, you can expect the same. If you are happy and healthy BEWARE you may end up with a spouse that supports your needs, gives you regular sex and a loving family. She might even cook, clean and listen to your ideas about starting a business and support them. Like I did. She might be regularly affectionate and compliment you. You may even have a spouse that is willing to reconcile and be forgiving after you cheat, like I am after my husband cheated. Scary. Yes AverageJoe, after the pain I was willing to tolerate to have my family and the things I do day to day to show them that I care about them more then anything in the world, I will not kindly put up with infidelity anymore. Infidelity is not the same thing as having a healthy, loving marriage. And yes the breakdown of the marriage if my husband or I cheated, would not be pleasant. Either of us would not have the right to: risk the other one's life, use joint marital holdings to get our sexual/emotional fix outside of the relationship, disrespect our children by risking their comfort and security with their parents, and put the other partner through that type of pain and betrayal. That doesn't make it not worth the risk. It means the obvious: don't cheat! Approximately 35% percent of marriages go through adultery, those are the raw, provable stats, even when all factors are adjusted for. Often infidelity help websites will expand this number often by combining stats like: 16% of women cheat and so do 30% of men so therefore: 46% of marriages are affected. What they aren't taking into account the overlap, cheaters cheating on each other. Only a third of marriages that go through adultery survive. And trust me, it is a piss off. BUT if you are a happy healthy spouse, married to a happy healthy spouse the odds strongly favor you not going through infidelity. Family history has been strongly linked with infidelity. If you are someone who came from a happily married home with no infidelity and you marry someone from the same background, then your odds greatly improve that you won't have to deal with that because your relationship template simply doesn't tend to carry that as an option. If you have a history of it, look into it, make sure it won't be an issues for you. Try to look for a spouse that knows the gravity of the situation and either has a pretty clean history or has done work on themselves. Marriage is just like any other investment, if you expect it to fail and don't put much into it, it will. I know that having committed to my marriage (unless we have adultery issues or these ones remain undealt with) has been incredibly rewarding. I think if most men interested in marriage found a woman with those values that stuck with them, they would have a very happy life. I can't see how anyone who would have their day to day needs, including sexual would feel a real sting over that.
dreamingoftigers Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 She signed up for it. LOL very often these days women go to school and start careers, meet their husbands and then they decide together that the wife should stay home for the kids. Therefore, she gets nothing anymore? Because she took her half of the family duties as the child-raising ones? Very rarely does a woman come into a marriage with nothing with a financially well-off man. If he is dumb enough to marry someone that isn't what he is worth financially, then he signed up for it.
dreamingoftigers Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 Wow, that is reasonable to take a mans worth? Hard earned worth, before he ever met you? You said, yes. The same would be said of him to take my worth, I worked damn hard before I met him. Granted we face the same financial consequences now. I still work an extra shift on Sundays, during a divorce, he in my opinion would be entitled to half of that as well.
Woggle Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 Well my ex wife did not work but that was more because she kept getting fired from jobs. She got nothing whatsoever in the divorce because she cheated and plus she lied about abuse and I feel this was fair. She would have sniffed it up her nose and shot it into her veins anyway.
AverageJoe Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 LOL very often these days women go to school and start careers, meet their husbands and then they decide together that the wife should stay home for the kids. Therefore, she gets nothing anymore? Because she took her half of the family duties as the child-raising ones? Very rarely does a woman come into a marriage with nothing with a financially well-off man. If he is dumb enough to marry someone that isn't what he is worth financially, then he signed up for it. Then there is no need to steal from a life long achievement. If women bring more to it. But...that viciousness gets in the way. Take, take, take and unfortunately the court system agrees. He is dumb if he doesnt insist, INSIST on a pre-nup. ALL men should do it.
zengirl Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 Wow, that is reasonable to take a mans worth? Hard earned worth, before he ever met you? You said, yes. Yes, it's reasonable to join all assets in marriage and split them evenly in divorce, especially if the marriage lasted a significant time. I don't set out to take anybody's "worth" personally, and I don't think it's a gender issue either. What makes it a gender issue is that men are less likely to stay home or sacrifice their career than women. I know some highly paid women who'd like a househusband (and some marriages where there is one), too, because they understand that two people working 60-80 hours a week can't raise children. Two people working? Sure. But two high powered careers? That's tough. Families that make the decision for one person to sacrifice more do so together . . . and generally share funds mutually, as is the case in most marriages (not all; you can get a prenup planning a different financial course, if you find someone who agrees). Granted, every marriage is different. If one partner cheated or abused the other, that should be taken into consideration. If one partner sacrificed their career for the other, that should be taken into consideration. If one partner supported the other through a lucrative grad school/med school/law school program that allowed them to later make more money, that should be taken into consideration. If the marriage was exceptionally short and funds were joined for a very small period of time, that should be taken into consideration, etc. LOL very often these days women go to school and start careers, meet their husbands and then they decide together that the wife should stay home for the kids. Therefore, she gets nothing anymore? Because she took her half of the family duties as the child-raising ones? Very rarely does a woman come into a marriage with nothing with a financially well-off man. If he is dumb enough to marry someone that isn't what he is worth financially, then he signed up for it. Exactly, this is what's silly. And gender should be irrelevant. Househusbands, housewives. . . we should treat them the same in divorce proceedings. All assets are shared once you're married (unless you sign a pre or post nup that modifies these general terms, which anyone is capable of doing if they choose), and all assets are split in a divorce. Occasionally, alimony is awarded. If the spouse works full-time and has never compromised their career for the other spouse, I don't agree with alimony, but if compromises --- particularly MAJOR ones, like someone stayed home with the kids and kept the house, have been made, well those sacrifices should be paid for in some way when distributing assets.
zengirl Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 Well my ex wife did not work but that was more because she kept getting fired from jobs. She got nothing whatsoever in the divorce because she cheated and plus she lied about abuse and I feel this was fair. She would have sniffed it up her nose and shot it into her veins anyway. That seems reasonable, Woggle, considering her history with you, the adultery, her abuse of you (this is the one who shot at you, right?), etc. You shouldn't have to support someone because they're cruel and unstable, but if you made a mutual decision to have one partner stay home, that's different.
Woggle Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 That seems reasonable, Woggle, considering her history with you, the adultery, her abuse of you (this is the one who shot at you, right?), etc. You shouldn't have to support someone because they're cruel and unstable, but if you made a mutual decision to have one partner stay home, that's different. This I can agree but if a marriage breaks up because a woman cheats or abuses a man then it certainly should be taken into account in court. She shot at me and is on trial for armed robbery and cocaine possession. She can actually end up doing serious time.
zengirl Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 This I can agree but if a marriage breaks up because a woman cheats or abuses a man then it certainly should be taken into account in court. She shot at me and is on trial for armed robbery and cocaine possession. She can actually end up doing serious time. Yowza. And, yes, I agree, adultery and abuse (either gender) should be taken into account in court. No one should lose anything for getting out a marriage that was abusive to them, or where there was adultery (in most cases; not counting things like open marriages, and I'd even put a "statute of limitations" on it; i.e. if your husband cheats, you move past it, he remains faithful for 5 years, and then you divorce. . . well, the cheating shouldn't be accounted for like current cheating, since you decided to move past it, but that's what I mean about it being variable and situational).
dreamingoftigers Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 Then there is no need to steal from a life long achievement. If women bring more to it. But...that viciousness gets in the way. Take, take, take and unfortunately the court system agrees. He is dumb if he doesnt insist, INSIST on a pre-nup. ALL men should do it. These days, everybody should do it. I guess that you aren't in Canada, we tend to be a little more, shall we say... equitable here. And they haven't been very good about enforcing child support either. In fact they play commericials on the radio basically asking dads to pay it. Alberta is the only province where they are starting to enforce some of this. Even that is minimal. They care more about unpaid traffic tickets. My husband's father for instance, never paid any. Ever. No penalties of any kind ever came his way. My husband didn't even meet him until 2 years ago. As well you don't have to be legally married to lose your assets. Up here if you live together for more then 2-3 years depending on the province, or 12 months federally. (Depends on the issues in dispute) Then it is viewed like a marriage in regards to assets, children etc. You don't even have to share the same residence: For instance in the Canadian case of Thauvette v Malvon, the common law parties had a 3-year relationship. During this time, they maintained separate residences. However, the man helped the woman purchase her home, and spent 4 or 5 nights per week at her home. The court found that the man and woman were cohabiting. Sometimes even affairs or dating counts as cohabitating, depending the depth and criteria of it. In Ontario (and a couple of other places) you can even get spousal support after a common-law split! It just makes more sense to cover your ass and make everything legally binding based on conditions.
dreamingoftigers Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 This I can agree but if a marriage breaks up because a woman cheats or abuses a man then it certainly should be taken into account in court. She shot at me and is on trial for armed robbery and cocaine possession. She can actually end up doing serious time. Not exactly the Headmaster at the School of Great Wifery... And in your case, it was taken into account right?
Woggle Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 Not exactly the Headmaster at the School of Great Wifery... And in your case, it was taken into account right? What sealed the deal was her lying in court about me abusing her and being exposed. The female judges was visibly disgusted at that and let me out the marriage unscathed.
dreamingoftigers Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 What sealed the deal was her lying in court about me abusing her and being exposed. The female judges was visibly disgusted at that and let me out the marriage unscathed. Good thing. It is good to know that the "sacrificial male" isn't universal down there.
Woggle Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 I have found that female judges actually tend to be much more fair to men. Many of them have a really distaste for the poor little victim act when a woman was blatantly in the wrong. The ones who screw over men the worst are these old school male judges wanting be chivalrous.
AverageJoe Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 Good thing. It is good to know that the "sacrificial male" isn't universal down there. Only about 45% of the time. Yeah sure, we have it good. Even though in those intimate moments of pillow talk when she says she will never, ever, do anything like that. Lawyers up, I want half. Judge weeps, gavel slams. End game.
Distant78 Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 Yes. I advocate everyone, especially men to get the strongest prenup they can conjure before putting that ring on their finger. When I was filing to divorce my cheating ex-wife I almost forgot I had a prenup in place. Thankfully I didn't have to pay nothing. But that didn't stop my thoughts of never marrying again when the divorce was finalized. Thought I was never going to do it again until I met my fiance. I love her so much but she knows about my past and understands I will drop her ass if she ever cheats.
dreamingoftigers Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 Only about 45% of the time. Yeah sure, we have it good. Even though in those intimate moments of pillow talk when she says she will never, ever, do anything like that. Lawyers up, I want half. Judge weeps, gavel slams. End game. Well AverageJoe, be glad to know there is at least one female not like that: me. I'll tell you right now, if he cheats again, I will do that. At least the old man can take comfort in the honesty. I'll lead and follow him through thick and thin otherwise: illness, child rearing, bankruptcy, business, ED, you name it, I'll be there and I'll be loving. One thing remains fact though: Cheat and you will be screwed and not just the way you want. In fact I posted on another thread that I hope the sex is actually really good if he does that because I would hate to think he gave our marriage up over mediochre sex. Otherwise I have too much self-respect to leech off of someone. I did some panhandling when I was younger and trust me, it's empty and dumb. I don't need to panhandle from an ex-husband.
musemaj11 Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) LOL Surely this approach will get you laid, lol NOT. I think it would be a great pickup line "hey there, I think you are a hot parasitic burden, want to go grab a drink?".... Errr, men all over the world basically say that in order to get a woman only in different words. What do you think the gesture of men asking a woman out and treating her to a dinner means? It means the guy is telling the woman, "Here parasite, this meal Im buying for you is me showing you that Im going to take care of you. Im going to let you leech off me for the rest of my life and Im fine with that as long as you agree to be with me." Government figures (based on census and IRS data) prove that after a divorce in the US, on average a woman's income is reduced by 60% and a man's increases by 30%. Thats because those women were so used to leech off their husbands that not only they are unable to stand on their own, they also lack the ability to control their finance. Moreover, that statistic also shows that men are financially healthier without a wife. Edited January 2, 2011 by musemaj11
dreamingoftigers Posted January 2, 2011 Posted January 2, 2011 Errr, men all over the world basically say that in order to get a woman only in different words. What do you think the gesture of men asking a woman out and treating her to a dinner means? It means the guy is telling the woman, "Here parasite, this meal Im buying for you is me showing you that Im going to take care of you. Im going to let you leech off me for the rest of my life and Im fine with that as long as you agree to be with me." My husband says dinner is just about trying to get laid: So basically men are saying: "Here woman, I am doing courtship thing so that you will risk reproduction/your self-respect with me so that I can feel the joy of sticking my penis into you." That seems more parasitic to me. It goes both ways. You can either look at relationships as mutual usership or as a symbiotic way to live, I have seen examples of both. Since you are choosing a form of mutual usership, that is probably what you will end up with. Trying to get the most bang for your buck, literally.
Author ComeUndone Posted January 2, 2011 Author Posted January 2, 2011 I believe it takes knowing what you want and taking a stand for that! You want to be married because you know what that means for you, and no one is going to take that away from you. I am the same way. I want to be married because of what it means for me. And I am in the same place you are. In an ideal world, my boyfriend and I would be married by now, but as it is there are too many reasons to not get married. I don't care for the reasons to NOT be married. For me, there is no good reason to marry anyway other than for love. I'm not going to ever try to convince him of marriage. I'm simply going to makes sure he is clear on what I want (marriage, because of what it means to me), and I am clear on what he wants. If together we can't create a relationship that is fulfilling for us both, than that's my sign to stay single! So I'm going to have these series of casual conversations with him and end the drama by spring. That's the time line I've placed on it all, because I don't want to go years and years through this, you know? Thanks for the thread, your question and all the replies have been helpful in looking at my situation as well! I'm pretty much where you are exactly, only I have no timeline on my relationship. I don't even know that I'm ready for marriage just yet, but I do know that I want to be married again. I'm not going not put any pressure on him because I would never want him to feel obligated to marry me. I never understood why women do that. Don't get me wrong, he needs to know her stance on marriage, and she on his, but why women so often ask or drop obvious hints or even give ultimatums - I just don't get that. If he isn't where she is, if they aren't on the same page at a time when she wants to be married and it's that important to her then she has a choice to either be with him under their current circumstances or leave him in hopes of finding a man who has the same needs as she. At this point I'm more curious about how it can get to this point, what he needs in order to desire marriage rather than fear it...
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