For the married men who once preferred to go through life spouseless...

[ComeUndone]

This question is primarily directed at the men here but if there are women who fit the bill then please chime in! If you were one of those guys who was generally anti-marriage but are now married, what made you decide to marry after all? Did she persuade you or give you an ultimatum? Did you just realize that she is the one for you and therefore marrying her just feels right? Did you do it more for business (insurance or tax benefits, so someone could make decisions for you in a medical emergency, etc) or for emotional reasons, because you love her and desired that bond?

 

SO many guys talk negatively of marriage - either women can't be trusted or he has too much to lose or marriage is just a piece of paper and doesn't strengthen his commitment to her, etc etc. I know plenty of men who think this way, and I'm wondering... didn't many now-married men think this way before they tied the knot? What changed their mind? What makes a man WANT to marry a woman?

[Surrealist]

I'm currently separated, pending divorce should it go through. I never believed in marriage when I was younger but I became a Christian later in life so my views changed. Well, the marriage didn't work anyway, though both of us are Christian with similar views, so now I don't think I ever want to marry again. There were quite a lot of challenges in our marriage that I don't ever want to go through again, challenges that were part of our own personalities and lack of compatibility, but also challenges that were apart from our personalities and situational. Having said all this, we have remained good friends and I mean friends only.

[Trimmer]

I did it for completely emotional, interpersonal reasons. Nothing to do with taxes, business, etc., as one of your questions asks. The outcome of my decision wasn't forced, but to a degree it was an ultimatum of hers that brought me to the decision-making point. We had been together for several years, and she wanted a marriage and kids, and if I didn't, then she needed to move on. I understood that, and so it was time to make a decision. I decided that given the choice between being married to her or being without her, I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her. It felt like I was moving into a new phase of my life, and it all seemed "right." While growing up, I had never really imagined myself getting married, but I believed she was "the one."

 

I suppose you could say that having made that decision did increase my commitment. Up to that point, I had been treating our relationship like we were rolling along day by day, but having to make the decision to commit made me really consider what I wanted in the long term, and I decided that I wanted to be with this woman for life.

 

Now, I was going to say "... and I don't regret that decision...", which is not quite the right flavor I want to convey. What I can say with confidence is that I was true to myself in that decision, and true to myself in my commitment to the marriage, and in my intention that it be a life-long commitment. Now somewhere along the way, she had an affair, and then a decade later, left me - ostensibly because she was generically dissatisfied, but she had developed a relationship with a new man with whom she is still partnered today.

 

So given the outcome, whether I 'regret' my decision way back when is a little murky, but it's not like my arm was twisted, or I was forced into it by an ultimatum or anything - I own it, I wanted it, and like I said, I was true to myself and to the marriage throughout. It just didn't work out that way for her.

 

(Note, I don't mean to portray myself as some perfect angel, nor do I disclaim my part of the responsibility for the state of our marriage as it wound down at the end. I'm just trying to focus on what I think you are asking about, which was the decision-making process that led to the marriage...)

 

Would I ever get married again? I don't know. I still don't really see myself as "the marrying type", as if I'm out looking to fulfill some life fantasy that isn't completed yet. I suppose if "the right one" comes along, I wouldn't rule it out. But I'm not sure whether my previous experience would make me more reluctant to do it again - probably so, I tend to think.

 

Hope that helps. Are you at a decision-making point in your life, or just pondering? Just curious: what brought this up?

Edited December 30, 2010 by Trimmer

[Woggle]

After my divorce I was so glad to be out of my horrible first marriage that I never wanted to commit to a woman ever again and chances are if I did not meet my wife I would still feel that way. When I met her though she actually made me change my mind about marriage. It was like the universe sent me a priceless gem I was not expecting at all.

[ComeUndone]

Are you at a decision-making point in your life, or just pondering? Just curious: what brought this up?

 

Well, my boyfriend of several years has expressed from the beginning his general disinterest in marriage. I think this stems from some negative experiences with his parents' tumultuous marriage and some friends who are going through divorce after seemingly happy relationships until they married. We talk openly about it and I have never put any pressure on him, although I would love to be married (again).

 

For somebody who isn't too interested in marriage, he sure talks about it a lot with his friends and family as he will often tell me about these conversations. I suspect he thinks more fondly about it now as he talks like we will be together forever. He tends to look at marriage from more of a business/contractual standpoint rather than an emotional one.

 

I just wonder what factors would make someone such as my boyfriend reach a point where he actually wants marriage? If he knows he's happy with me and can see himself being with me forever, then what more does it take? Maybe he'll never get there, I don't know, but I thought I could gain some insight from others who have been there.

[ComeUndone]

After my divorce I was so glad to be out of my horrible first marriage that I never wanted to commit to a woman ever again and chances are if I did not meet my wife I would still feel that way. When I met her though she actually made me change my mind about marriage. It was like the universe sent me a priceless gem I was not expecting at all.

 

That's very sweet Wog

[sam light]

I considered it once for financial reasons and for fitting in with "normal" people. I've seen friends get married to fit in. Then there is the rare perfect match that you never expected to find. At a certain age many people of both sexes get desperate to marry, they pick poorly.

 

I find most people want a perfect match, but settle for less and hate it. Those with longer term outlook stay happilly single.

[that girl]

SO many guys talk negatively of marriage - either women can't be trusted or he has too much to lose or marriage is just a piece of paper and doesn't strengthen his commitment to her, etc etc. I know plenty of men who think this way, and I'm wondering... didn't many now-married men think this way before they tied the knot? What changed their mind? What makes a man WANT to marry a woman?

 

Two things to keep in mind:

 

#1- The internet has an overabundance of bitter people

 

#2- Guys talk a lot of s&*!

 

There is a think tank on marriage at UVA (used to be a Rutgers) and they recently did a survey on how 18-35 year olds saw marriage. They actually found that more men than women wanted to get married eventually. Most people of both genders wanted to get married, but more men considered it important.

 

But as much as I think guys talk a lot of s&*!, a woman should never hope to change a guy's mind. If marriage is important to you, you need to explain that to him and move on.

[musemaj11]

Im 25 and all the girls I had been dating were 23 or below.

 

Perhaps, it has to do with the age range of the girl I had been dating but as of now, Im still in the belief that women are just a parasitic burden and I dont intend to ever legally bind myself to any of them unless one day Im lucky enough to meet that priceless gem like Woggle did.

[PegNosePete]

...or marriage is just a piece of paper and doesn't strengthen his commitment

I believe this is the right way of looking at it.

If you believe that marriage will change anything, then you're not ready for it.

[musemaj11]

There is a think tank on marriage at UVA (used to be a Rutgers) and they recently did a survey on how 18-35 year olds saw marriage. They actually found that more men than women wanted to get married eventually. Most people of both genders wanted to get married, but more men considered it important.

Just like women, every single guy also dreams of meeting that special someone whom he will be married to and have kids with for the rest of his life.

 

Men cherish the romantic idea of marriage as well. However, today men realize that in reality marriage is more likely to be something that will end up biting them in the behind than turning into the fairytale they have in mind.

[that girl]

Perhaps, it has to do with the age range of the girl I had been dating but as of now, Im still in the belief that women are just a parasitic burden and I dont intend to ever legally bind myself to any of them unless one day Im lucky enough to meet that priceless gem like Woggle did.

 

If you think this way, you are pretty much guaranteed to never met that priceless gem.

 

You may or may not like me, but I've never cheated on anyone, I've never abused anyone, I don't have any financial expectations of a man beyond supporting himself and returning what efforts I make (ie buying each other birthday gifts, if we have kids jointly supporting them). I'm a pretty nice person, but I don't think I'm a priceless gem, I know lots of women like me.

 

If you go around thinking women are parasites and using pick up artist tips, you're unlikely to find a good woman who you connect with. It doesn't mean she's not out there.

Edited December 31, 2010 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[that girl]

If you believe that marriage will change anything, then you're not ready for it

.

Hmmm.... I've never been married so maybe I'm wrong, but I've always thought marriage would change things. Not in terms of the quality of our relationship, but that we'd become family and have greater responsibility towards each other. I would leave a dating relationship that was making me unhappy much quicker than a marriage because I think the commitment of marriage is worth working on. I would also like any kids I might one day have to be born with the stability of parents who have legally committed to spend their lives together. Obviously divorce is still a possibility and many people happily raise children without marriage, but I'd ideally want that commitment.

[PegNosePete]

I would leave a dating relationship that was making me unhappy much quicker than a marriage because I think the commitment of marriage is worth working on.

Then you're not staying in the hypothetical marriage for the right reason. You're just staying because of social pressure, that you have a preconception that because you are legally tied together, you have to stay together forever. Say you've been with someone for 10 years, have a house together, and you're getting unhappy, or he's cheating on you, or you've just grown apart. The reasons don't matter, lets just say the relationship has fallen apart so badly that even after 10 years together, you decide to split up rather than work out your issues. So would it really have made a difference if you'd got married after 5 years? If so, then why would it make a difference? The issues and problems in your relationship are still the same. If you think he won't cheat because he's married or that you'll be happier or won't grow apart because you're legally tied together, then you're unfortunately very wrong!

 

I would also like any kids I might one day have to be born with the stability of parents who have legally committed to spend their lives together. Obviously divorce is still a possibility and many people happily raise children without marriage, but I'd ideally want that commitment.

Well I do also feel that if I have kids I would want to be married first. But that goes against my own logic, so please ignore my hypocrisy. OK I'll justify it on legal grounds, that as a father my rights would be diminished if I wasn't married.

 

Marriage does not increase commitment. If you're committed to someone, then you're committed to them. A legal document does not make you any more or less committed. Commitment comes from within. Even if you have children, being married does not help to save your relationship.

[that girl]

Then you're not staying in the hypothetical marriage for the right reason. You're just staying because of social pressure, that you have a preconception that because you are legally tied together, you have to stay together forever. Say you've been with someone for 10 years, have a house together, and you're getting unhappy, or he's cheating on you, or you've just grown apart. The reasons don't matter, lets just say the relationship has fallen apart so badly that even after 10 years together, you decide to split up rather than work out your issues. So would it really have made a difference if you'd got married after 5 years? If so, then why would it make a difference? The issues and problems in your relationship are still the same. If you think he won't cheat because he's married or that you'll be happier or won't grow apart because you're legally tied together, then you're unfortunately very wrong!

You missed my point.

 

I never said I would stick through a miserable marriage because of social convention. I said I would work harder to fix a marriage than a relationship because when you marry someone they become part of your family. I don't think marriage makes people happier, but it should make you a unit.

 

And there are levels of commitment. You can commit to spending your life together without getting married and like marriage that may or may not fall apart, but people who are committed to spending their lives together have a radically different level of commitment than people who see the relationship as just for now or until one of us gets bored or unless one of us decides to move.

[PegNosePete]

You missed my point.

 

I never said I would stick through a miserable marriage because of social convention. I said I would work harder to fix a marriage than a relationship because when you marry someone they become part of your family. I don't think marriage makes people happier, but it should make you a unit.

You've missed my point too. Why would you work harder to fix a marriage, assuming all other factors are the same?

 

Because you love your husband more than you would if you hadn't got married? Nope. We're assuming all other factors are the same.

 

Because a marriage is more hassle/expense to dissolve than shacking up? Not a good reason to stay with someone.........

 

Because you feel marriage should be fore life? Well this is just a social pressure, nothing to do with your relationship.

 

And if you need a marriage to feel part of the family, then IMO, they are not very good family! (And believe me if you divorce then you will see whose "family" they really are)

 

You can commit to spending your life together without getting married and like marriage that may or may not fall apart, but people who are committed to spending their lives together have a radically different level of commitment than people who see the relationship as just for now or until one of us gets bored or unless one of us decides to move.

Yes but that level of commitment comes from within. It's not increased by having a legal document. I think you're seeing the anthropic principle here. You're seeing that married people have a stronger bond and therefore deducing that marriage increases the bond. But in reality the reason married people have a stronger bond, is that people with a stronger bond get married more often.

Edited December 31, 2010 by PegNosePete

[that girl]

Because a marriage is more hassle/expense to dissolve than shacking up? Not a good reason to stay with someone.........

Nope.

 

Because you feel marriage should be fore life? Well this is just a social pressure, nothing to do with your relationship.

I think you can think marriage is for life without it being social pressure but this isn't the reason either.

 

And if you need a marriage to feel part of the family, then IMO, they are not very good family! (And believe me if you divorce then you will see whose "family" they really are)

I don't think you understand what I mean by family. I might end a relationship with a boyfriend over a terrible fight, but I would never cut off a family member because of a terrible fight. My family are very important to me and people who I trust to do things like take me off life support if I was very ill. It would take prolonged serious problems or something really unforgivable like molesting a child or physically abusing me for me to cut them off completely. I have always seen marriage as becoming part of the family, that someone I would marry would become as high a priority to me as my parents.

 

I would work harder on a marriage than a dating relationship not because of any social pressure or problem divorce might cause, but because I think marriage, like my relationship with my blood family, is worthwhile.

 

I don't think you need to marry someone to have this kind of commitment, but I would in all likelihood marry someone I felt that committed to.

 

Maybe I have an overly idealistic view, but I'm thinking you had a painful divorce so your view seems excessively bitter.

[PegNosePete]

I don't think you need to marry someone to have this kind of commitment, but I would in all likelihood marry someone I felt that committed to.

Ah there you go, the anthropic principle. You would marry someone you are that committed to, therefore someone you are committed to would be married to you. You feel marriage would be worth saving because you would not have got married to someone unless you thought it was worth saving. It's self-defining

 

Maybe I have an overly idealistic view, but I'm thinking you had a painful divorce so your view seems excessively bitter.

Going through divorce yes, but not particularly painful (relative to many others). And I'm not bitter either, I held these views before getting married. I do support the institution of marriage (otherwise i wouldn't have done it!) but I do feel that a lot of people get married for the wrong reasons. My opinion is that you should only get married if you are happy with the status quo (ie. you're not expecting any change). That is how I felt when I did it and still do.

[that girl]

My opinion is that you should only get married if you are happy with the status quo (ie. you're not expecting any change).

And see I think life is always going to change. No one is young forever, people get sick, people have professional failures, people have kids. Most people get married when things are going well, but when you marry someone you're committing to being with them even when life is difficult.

 

The point is to find someone who you feel deeply connected to and compatible with and with whom you share a desire for life long commitment. Obviously that commitment may not last, but it is guaranteed that things will change.

 

Ah there you go, the anthropic principle. You would marry someone you are that committed to, therefore someone you are committed to would be married to you. You feel marriage would be worth saving because you would not have got married to someone unless you thought it was worth saving. It's self-defining

I get that you're mocking me, but frankly it doesn't make sense (and you're not using anthropic properly). I'm not saying that married people have a stronger bond, lots of people have unhappy marriages and lots unmarried people have very strong commitments. I'm saying that if I get married (I'm relatively young so I assume that will happen, though maybe it won't) it would be me intentionally deepening my commitment to another person by planning to be there through whatever terrible things happen. I don't think marriage changes relationships, but I do think it is planning to be there through the changes that inevitably come with life.

[Woggle]

Just like women, every single guy also dreams of meeting that special someone whom he will be married to and have kids with for the rest of his life.

 

Men cherish the romantic idea of marriage as well. However, today men realize that in reality marriage is more likely to be something that will end up biting them in the behind than turning into the fairytale they have in mind.

 

Exactly. Most men would love to find that special person but we look at current trends and statistics and look at the marriages around us and many decide that we don't want to play russian roulette with our lives. Without piece of paper a man can easily walk away if she starts giving him grief and mistreating but in a marriage it is very hard and when he does get out he might indebted to her for the next couple of decades. Some men feel it is just not worth the risk.

[Madgick1]

One of my colleagues was married twice; first time abt 15 years to a horrible out of control alcoholic who wiped him out financially in the divorce.

 

Second time was abt six years to a woman he liked but who was abt 10 years younger than him. They've both said the age difference was a problem. She said they were both strong willed people who wanted their own way (they both worked where I did, so I know both sides sort of). He once told me that they went to marriage counselling and suddenly he found out he was doing everything wrong. I think he was happily married for the most part and was very saddened when they broke up. She told him she wanted a divorce, picked up and left the state and he filed and arranged for the divorce. A year later he still referred to her as his wife (altho he hasn't done that for about six months now, she's always referred to as his ex), and they talk on the phone on occasion.

 

He swears NEVER AGAIN.

 

Abt 2 months ago a group of us were going to lunch and between the parking lot and the restaurant was a church and a father was standing in the doorway with his daughter. It was shadowed and not really noticable, but he noticed and shielded his eyes. "No, no, don't let me look, I can't watch." He laughed.

 

But at the very same lunch he initiated a conversation with the divorced guy across the table with him on the topic of another work couple who had been living together for 13 years. "What's going on with that? Don't you think that's strange, what's the real story there."

 

He thought it was odd a couple would be together so long without marrying. My guess is he's going to be married again someday.

 

I know also he's lonely: no kids, his family of origin is sort of dysfunctional and he keeps a distance from them. He was alone for Thanksgiving, Xmas and his birthday, and once mentioned how he had no family just kind of out of nowhere.

 

He doesn't have a girlfriend, altho since his divorce he's dated a couple times. He has a lot of men friends, good good men friends and is well regarded and makes a decent income. But altho he has a dynamic personality, I think he's uncertain and awkward around women, and maybe ashamed of his past and he's always struck me as being cautious. I think wife number 2 bashed in his confidence pretty good.

 

Just the same, my guess is he will marry again. He's in his mid fifties with no family and most of his social ties are with men at work. Retirement looms. He's going to have time and money and no one to play with.

 

My guess is if he gets himself a long term girlfriend he's happy with, he'll marry. And that his current stance of never again is like That Girl says, part talking shlt and part reaction to his bad experiences.

[PegNosePete]

I get that you're mocking me, but frankly it doesn't make sense (and you're not using anthropic properly). I'm not saying that married people have a stronger bond, lots of people have unhappy marriages and lots unmarried people have very strong commitments. I'm saying that if I get married (I'm relatively young so I assume that will happen, though maybe it won't) it would be me intentionally deepening my commitment to another person by planning to be there through whatever terrible things happen. I don't think marriage changes relationships, but I do think it is planning to be there through the changes that inevitably come with life.

I'm not mocking you at all, just have a different opinion...

I just don't think you are considering marriage as one factor in isolation. I don't see why you can't intentionally deepen your commitment by planning to be there through whatever terrible things happen, without getting married.

[zengirl]

I would leave a dating relationship that was making me unhappy much quicker than a marriage because I think the commitment of marriage is worth working on. I would also like any kids I might one day have to be born with the stability of parents who have legally committed to spend their lives together. Obviously divorce is still a possibility and many people happily raise children without marriage, but I'd ideally want that commitment.

 

I agree with this entirely, and your position in the whole conversation that came after. I think writing something down, committing to it legally, and saying, "Yes, this contract is for life" makes you more likely to work on things.

 

For an example, I spent two years abroad on a teaching contract. All the teachers have these two year contracts with no real outs (I mean, you can leave, but you forfeit a lot of money, and you may lose future visa status. . . unless there's a major family medical emergency or some really, really good excuse). You sign it. You agree to two years. And, even though it's more difficult, living abroad, teaching 50 hour weeks, way worse than the school I work in now in terms of draining, there was WAY less turnover than I've seen at my school in the states that has no real contract. (There is one but it has a clause for giving notice, and people still can and do.)

 

Many, many people take contracts seriously, especially when there are understandable penalties for breaking it. And that's what marriage gives. Does it add more love? Not really. Maybe some good memories and some sentimental things to celebrate. Does it make the people different or more compatible? Not really. But it certifies a deeper commitment that is more painful to break apart, so you have to really think before you leave. That's how I see it.

 

In this day and age where we're told to be mobile, keep moving, watch out for ourselves, and give our loyalty to no one, it's one last remaining and very common way to tie your fate to someone. I may never get a gold watch----who can trust a company to give them your loyalty, but I want to have a golden wedding anniversary someday and say I committed to something, I wrote it down, and I believed in it.

 

Marriage is essentially placing a huge bet on the relationship. That's why it's risky, and that's why it's worthwhile. To me, saying "commit without marriage" (unless it's for political reasons, or something, like I've considered not getting legally married in the States until my gay friends can too) is like saying, "This relationship isn't worth betting on. Let's just see what happens."

Edited December 31, 2010 by zengirl

[PegNosePete]

Many, many people take contracts seriously, especially when there are understandable penalties for breaking it. And that's what marriage gives. Does it add more love? Not really. Maybe some good memories and some sentimental things to celebrate. Does it make the people different or more compatible? Not really. But it certifies a deeper commitment that is more painful to break apart, so you have to really think before you leave. That's how I see it.

See, I prefer a wife to work on the relationship because she wants to. Not because of a contractual obligation.

[Enchanted Girl]

Well, my boyfriend of several years has expressed from the beginning his general disinterest in marriage. I think this stems from some negative experiences with his parents' tumultuous marriage and some friends who are going through divorce after seemingly happy relationships until they married. We talk openly about it and I have never put any pressure on him, although I would love to be married (again).

 

For somebody who isn't too interested in marriage, he sure talks about it a lot with his friends and family as he will often tell me about these conversations. I suspect he thinks more fondly about it now as he talks like we will be together forever. He tends to look at marriage from more of a business/contractual standpoint rather than an emotional one.

 

I just wonder what factors would make someone such as my boyfriend reach a point where he actually wants marriage? If he knows he's happy with me and can see himself being with me forever, then what more does it take? Maybe he'll never get there, I don't know, but I thought I could gain some insight from others who have been there.

 

I really want to address this post directly so I hope you read this.

 

I dated a man for five years. He proposed to me three years into the relationship without prompting from me at all, but earlier this year, he broke up with me.

 

He couldn't handle the responsibility and sacrifice it would mean for us to actually live together and try to get married and stuff. We were fighting about it at the time. We both realized that we either needed to do it now or never. I didn't give him an ultimatum, it was like an ultimatum on our relationship (since both our lives were changing at the time) suddenly appeared out of thin air. And he panicked and said he couldn't do it anymore and had to leave me.

 

He was okay with marriage, you have to understand, but everyone around him wasn't. His best friend, David, constantly nagged him about it and how it would ruin his life and their friendship if he married me. His mentor who was single all his life told him whenever he saw him that he was too young to be engaged and how his life as a bachelor had been the best thing to ever happen to him. His parents told him they'd basically disown him if he got married before 30 because everyone, supposedly, gets divorced if they try to marry before the age of 30. His biological father (different from the two people I just called his parents) is a single guy who is known for picking up women immorally all the time and treating them like crap. Absolutely none of his friends have a stable and healthy, long lasting relationship. He was the only one that way.

 

You have to remember, he was okay, without any prompting from me with marrying me, but all these people around him WEREN'T okay with it. He told me the things they would tell him and told me none of their words affected him, but if that was true, then he wouldn't have left me. The people in your man's life make a BIG difference in his viewpoints towards marriage. If all his friends are married and happy, versus divorced and bitter, it does influence his views a lot. And it will always be that way unfortunately, even though you'll have no control over it.

 

That doesn't mean things are hopeless for you. My Dad was the same way, but still remained married to my Mom and it's over 35 years later! BUT they didn't have a happy marriage. My Dad constantly doubted whether he had wasted his youth marrying my Mom (yes, I heard the things they were fighting about) and they almost got divorced a lot.

 

While my current boyfriend, while our relationship isn't ideal and we haven't been dating a long time and I have no idea where things will go, has so far had much less problems with commitment and things than my ex did. He easily told me he loved me, actually asked me to move in with him fairly quickly, and calls me his soul mate. He doesn't seem like the commitment phobic type. And guess what? He's surrounded by people in happy long term relationships. His brother has been married for a decade. One of his good friends just got married. And his two best friends have long term steady girlfriends. They never, ever tell him not to be committed to me or that it's foolish to be with me. In fact, he was single for a few years before he met me and they all keep joking about how awesome it is that he has a girlfriend now and therefore has to go through all the girlfriend stuff they do as well. They tell me that he was out flirting with other girls just to try to get him into trouble with me because they think it is funny. Danny, the one that just got married, is completely whipped by his girlfriend and all of them are fine with it. They act like it makes sense.

 

I don't think men are instinctively terrified of relationships. I think society makes them that way with all the complaining and caution and talk to men about how getting married will destroy their lives. And I think that that talking destroys marriages and possible marriages that could improve men's lives otherwise. I'm not saying anyone should settle, but being terrified every moment of marriage when you're otherwise happy with who you are with (which my ex said he was, he said he still loved everything about me after we broke up and thought I was a perfect woman, but that commitment to any woman would take stuff from his life away from him and he didn't want that) and it just disturbs me.