The Update I Thought I'd Never Write

[desertIslandCactus]

 

 

What happened with his W was, they had an argument, as they often do and she told him it was over, as she often does. In the past she has always asked him to go round afterwards, say a day or so later, to see their child, and he does where she asks him to make more effort... and then the cycle carries on. This time he said that it was really over. He left and went back in the morning to tell her the truth.

 

 

 

Hazy, if I remember correctly - you had a discussion with his wife about yours and his relationship, incl answering her questions?

 

"they had an argument, as they often do".. I would assume so, with a W who probably just couldn't forget.

 

It seems this man came over to you possibly because he felt it would be friendlier country.

[IzzyB]

Hi Izz,

 

Don't worry, after just over a year on these forums, I am fully aware of those that flip-flop. He has tried to do it himself for a year! But, you're right. That's one of the things I think couple's counselling will help for - helping me feel secure. And him.

 

You know, after over a year of him breaking NCs, I wouldn't wish a non-conclusive break of it on anyone. It hurts everytime. This time last year I was wishing he would leave me alone, as well as pining for him. I understand completely what you're feeling.

 

Last dday he was horrible to both of us, just I had never seen that in him before. He lied, threatened and behaved like a bratty child caught out.

 

Listen, one thing I've learned is don't settle for less than you truly want. Every time I did it hurt me more. I might still get hurt, but this time he has offered what I asked of him. I just hope he means it.

 

We were NC this time for just under three months. The longest we have gone is six months.

 

Take care and have a fab new year without the stressful side of the A

 

Hugs,

Hazy

 

 

Great advice Hazy thank you. As I said I have no plans to make contact with him. I just need to make peace with my heart and mind. I know I am better off out of the relationship but it still hurts just dropping someone out of your life when they have been in it quite a bit. Heart knows this is the right thing and the loving thing. Head knows I was not getting what I needed from him anyway, but my ego seems to be having quite a say about things as well - and i think thats the part that hurts the most, not knowing if this is as hard for him.

 

 

As for you, please keep us posted!

[silverplanets]

On Boxing day I received an email from MM. In it he told me that he had told his wife he wanted a divorce and wanted to be with me. He came clean that everything he said to her after dday was one lie after another just to minimise the trouble but he can't lie to himself anymore. He told her he did love me and still does and needs to act on it.

 

After speaking to him, in person at the new house he is renting, he has said that he'll do anything to prove his commitment to me, including giving me whatever space I may need.

 

God. I still do love this man and think we could be so good together, but it'll be a rocky road, right?

 

Tiger, I know exactly where you're coming from. I've been you

 

I know for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the childcare arrangements have changed as he is no longer allowed in the family home, so his child comes to him and has to go back for the evening. At the moment. Hopefully this will ease. Secondly, there was a huge angry knock at the door, whilst I was there and we both jumped. His response (and mine too) was that it must have been her and he asked me if I wanted him to open it or I needed more time before facing her. Also, he's just totally different. Not at all cagey or jumpy if the phone rings.

 

Saying all that, i still will be cautious. We talked about getting counselling together so we do it right, as well as individually.

 

If he doddles on the divorce proceeding (ie. things from his end) I will move no further with him. It depends on the situation I guess, because some divorces can take a bit of time. But, as long as it moves.

 

Thanks for your concern, Tiger.

 

Hi Hazy,

 

I truly do wish for you (and everyone) that they find a deep, relationship that fulfils them in mind, body and soul ... so I hope that, if this is the relationship for you, then this latest development works out well.

 

I'd be interested to know if in the original email did he detail upfront that his wife had thrown him out and he had decided not to go back ... so that you had the choice of how you responded to that. Or was that information not volunteered until face to face when it is more easy to influence. ie , did he drip feed or consciously/unconsciously manage information flow for his benefit.

 

Secondly, when was this fight with his W and how long elapsed before he emailed you? Has he taken any time to deal with the realities of separation with a child (ie to agree visitation, child support etc) before contacting you. Has he taken the time to resolve the situation in a respectful way with his W before contacting you. ie .. is he clearly demonstrating that, even though separating, he is respecting the feelings of his W and child and you by having put clear distance between finishing with her and getting you involved in the situation.

 

Has he involved you in a situation that is under control and sorted .. and hence demonstrated a deep respect for the path of your life and your needs.

 

Has he been living on his own with the relationship with his W finished .. or has it been him being out of the house because of the A, with him trying to patch it up? ie has he spent time alone dealing with the realities of a divorce and the loneliness and self-reflection (and ultimately the learning) that this brings.

 

Why was it a possibility that his w would be banging angrily on the door .. and if it was because all this is very fresh why has he involved you in a situation that is not yet resolved?

 

I guess what I am asking is what qualities has he evidenced and demonstrated *right now* that confirms his suitability as an ideal life partner ...

 

Has he:

a) let his wife down honestly, gently (but firmly) and taken time to respect her (and his child) as people by sorting out all the myriad of details one by one, without drama and without inflaming emotions

b) loved himself enough (and been self aware enough) to give himself time to heal and process the divorce so that he is able to enter complete and whole into any new relationship in his life

c) Respected you, your life enough to not dangle any carrots in front of you before he is able to honour his commitment to you .. so that your relationship with him is as equals rather than with you always sub-consciously aware that he is not divorced and has the potential to go back ?

 

 

In shorter words, I guess, has he fundamentally respected the rights of all parties involved to be treated independantly and not brought together to make a drama just to satisfy his needs/insecurity/impatience.

 

Or has he instantly pursued his own needs at the risk of inflaming drama and causing distress to others?

 

If he has maturely resolved issues and not inturrupted your life until he can honour it with the respect it deserves then I think that it's a truly wonderfull thing. If he's got you back involved in a not-yet fully resolved situation with an angry wife then I would be worried what that says about his deep regard for the sanctity and stability of your life.

 

If he just had to tell you to confirm you'd be there when he'd finished the next actions then why did he need to do that?

 

Not sure if this makes any sense or not ... just thoughts from reading the order of what you'd wrote etc

 

Please feel absolutely empowered to ignore everything I've wrote (except the bit about hoping everyone finds a special, deep relationship :)) and please don't think I am not pleased for you .. I am.

 

I just think it's not about words or how people say they will behave in the future .. it's about how they are behaving right now ... PARTICULARLY with people who are not the focus of their attention.

 

be safe

 

Chris

:)

[fooled once]

Hi Hazy. Been out of town for several days and when I saw your post, I had to read it first.

 

I'm happy for you Hazy - but I'm still going through that phase where I think all MMs lie - so I really want you to be very very careful.

 

I'm just wondering, how do you know that he really did tell his W all those things? Yes, he has a place that he's renting, but maybe she threw him out for some reason. I dunno...

 

I really don't want to take away from your happiness, because I truly do hope that he's telling you the truth and that he finally manned up and that you guys can be happy together.

 

So I'm assuming that he's working on divorce procedures right now? If he doddles on that, what are you going to do?

 

I just worry about you, I don't mean to take away from this possibly awesome news, I just hope that its for real.

 

I agree.

 

It's just too bad he didn't wait until he was officially divorced and had some time to go through what he needs to go through before jumping into something with you. Take your time, do things slowly and date, get out of the affair dynamic completely. Don't do sleepovers and/or let him try to convince you to move in with him quickly either..

 

Are you sure it was him who asked for the D or was it his wife?

 

Anyway, let his actions prove to you that he means what he says.

 

I agree.

 

Hi Hazy,

 

I truly do wish for you (and everyone) that they find a deep, relationship that fulfils them in mind, body and soul ... so I hope that, if this is the relationship for you, then this latest development works out well.

 

I'd be interested to know if in the original email did he detail upfront that his wife had thrown him out and he had decided not to go back ... so that you had the choice of how you responded to that. Or was that information not volunteered until face to face when it is more easy to influence. ie , did he drip feed or consciously/unconsciously manage information flow for his benefit.

 

Secondly, when was this fight with his W and how long elapsed before he emailed you? Has he taken any time to deal with the realities of separation with a child (ie to agree visitation, child support etc) before contacting you. Has he taken the time to resolve the situation in a respectful way with his W before contacting you. ie .. is he clearly demonstrating that, even though separating, he is respecting the feelings of his W and child and you by having put clear distance between finishing with her and getting you involved in the situation.

 

Has he involved you in a situation that is under control and sorted .. and hence demonstrated a deep respect for the path of your life and your needs.

 

Has he been living on his own with the relationship with his W finished .. or has it been him being out of the house because of the A, with him trying to patch it up? ie has he spent time alone dealing with the realities of a divorce and the loneliness and self-reflection (and ultimately the learning) that this brings.

 

Why was it a possibility that his w would be banging angrily on the door .. and if it was because all this is very fresh why has he involved you in a situation that is not yet resolved?

 

I guess what I am asking is what qualities has he evidenced and demonstrated *right now* that confirms his suitability as an ideal life partner ...

 

Has he:

a) let his wife down honestly, gently (but firmly) and taken time to respect her (and his child) as people by sorting out all the myriad of details one by one, without drama and without inflaming emotions

b) loved himself enough (and been self aware enough) to give himself time to heal and process the divorce so that he is able to enter complete and whole into any new relationship in his life

c) Respected you, your life enough to not dangle any carrots in front of you before he is able to honour his commitment to you .. so that your relationship with him is as equals rather than with you always sub-consciously aware that he is not divorced and has the potential to go back ?

 

 

In shorter words, I guess, has he fundamentally respected the rights of all parties involved to be treated independantly and not brought together to make a drama just to satisfy his needs/insecurity/impatience.

 

Or has he instantly pursued his own needs at the risk of inflaming drama and causing distress to others?

 

If he has maturely resolved issues and not inturrupted your life until he can honour it with the respect it deserves then I think that it's a truly wonderfull thing. If he's got you back involved in a not-yet fully resolved situation with an angry wife then I would be worried what that says about his deep regard for the sanctity and stability of your life.

 

If he just had to tell you to confirm you'd be there when he'd finished the next actions then why did he need to do that?

 

Not sure if this makes any sense or not ... just thoughts from reading the order of what you'd wrote etc

 

Please feel absolutely empowered to ignore everything I've wrote (except the bit about hoping everyone finds a special, deep relationship :)) and please don't think I am not pleased for you .. I am.

 

I just think it's not about words or how people say they will behave in the future .. it's about how they are behaving right now ... PARTICULARLY with people who are not the focus of their attention.

 

be safe

 

Chris

:)

 

Excellent post Chris, as usual

 

Hazy, I am not sure how I am feeling for you...to be honest.

 

I am concerned because I feel the few things you have said about his wife, you have in a way put her down. Remember, she is the one whose H was cheating. Remember, he is the one who has been lying to her. Can you blame her for being pissed? Can you blame her for any anger she has been experiencing?

 

I guess I don't really get how you can (if you are) sweeping away what he did, not only to you, but to his wife.

 

He has hurt you so much; yet it seems as if you have forgiven all that, because you love him.

 

I am guessing his wife loves him too and she may not go without a fight.

 

Please do not take sides in their divorce. Please do not belittle her feelings or feel as if she doesn't have a right to be angry or upset. Please do not get in the middle of their divorce.

 

I also don't like that he jumped from her to you, without bothering to truly get his sh*t squared away first. It is as if he needs you to help him through this or he can't do this alone. The word coward continues to come to mind.

 

But it is ultimately your life and your decision. You are a big girl You know that trusting him again could lead to more heartache for you. You know he can lie and mistreat/disrespect others. You had it done to you.

 

Please don't jump in with both feet yet. Please give it time. Please let him get the counseling HE needs. He needs to learn why he is a cheater, why he hurts others and why he behaves the way he does.

 

I agree with WWIU in that to make the relationship work, you have to start over - get away from the affair dynamic. You have to 'forget' the past, but not forget that he is capable of the things he is capable of.

 

I do believe you deserve better. I do believe you are too good for him.

 

But I also want you happy. IF he is it, he has a lot of proving of himself to do and you need to keep your eyes open and the sparkles out of your eyes so you can really see him and really determine if he is worthy of you.

 

I am not trying to poo-poo anything, but you know I care about you and want you to be happy. You have been through a lot and I don't want to see you hurting anymore

 

I hope 2011 is good to you - no matter how things turn out with him. Happy New Year my friend ((hugs))

[BB07]

Lot's of good posts in this thread Hazy......and I'd like to second the motion that SilverPlanets and FO's addressed the things I wanted to say, but wasn't sure how.

 

I think you are a wonderful, smart, kind, caring woman Hazy and I want you to be with the kind of man who is deserving of you, so with those words, I sincerely wish you all the best!

[siuys]

hi hazy, haven't read everyone's replies just want to say good luck to you and hope all works out. It's so nice to hear a story that's different on this particular forum. I wish you all the very best and keep us posted.

[OWoman]

I share your cautious optimism, Hazy. It's just beginning, and there is a lot still lying ahead - but it's an important step.

[Got it]

Wow! It's a shocking moment isn't it?

 

It is a rocky road but if both you and MM work at it, it is a wonderful adventure!

 

I agree on taking time on the kid factor, my sMM has been out of the home for a year but due to the emotions and other factors I still have not met the kids and won't until the divorce is final. Lawyer agrees with this approach as well.

 

But our relationship is just lovely and I love the man so very much.

 

Congrats, keep your needs and boundaries up front and center and continue enjoying your life!

[jj33]

Hazy wishing you a happy new year and a new year filled with love. Boundaries etc are important but dont let fear push you away from something good. Trust your gut. Yes its possible that you could get hurt again but that is always possible. Its also possible that this could be a fresh start for something wonderful between you.

[Hazyhead]

Good for you Hazy!!!

 

I couldn't be happier for you. I hope the best for you and keep loving yourself and make sure he is loving and respecting you.

 

Happy New Year!

 

Thank you. All the best to you, too

 

Hazy, if I remember correctly - you had a discussion with his wife about yours and his relationship, incl answering her questions?

 

"they had an argument, as they often do".. I would assume so, with a W who probably just couldn't forget.

 

It seems this man came over to you possibly because he felt it would be friendlier country.

 

I did have a conversation with her, in which I was completely honest. They have argued the whole time they have been together, though it is understandable more now, I don't know the details, of course, but this wasn't his reason for leaving. It has been a year since he moved out. He hung on to see if there would be improvement for the sake of their little baby, but he just doesn't want to do it anymore and, it seems, neither does she.

 

I appreciate you commenting but there is a lot more to it than just running to someone who is nicer to you (especially as I wasn't and the last time we spoke I let him have it).

 

I think it's a moot point, tbh.

 

Great advice Hazy thank you. As I said I have no plans to make contact with him. I just need to make peace with my heart and mind. I know I am better off out of the relationship but it still hurts just dropping someone out of your life when they have been in it quite a bit. Heart knows this is the right thing and the loving thing. Head knows I was not getting what I needed from him anyway, but my ego seems to be having quite a say about things as well - and i think thats the part that hurts the most, not knowing if this is as hard for him.

 

 

As for you, please keep us posted!

 

You are so much better out of that dynamic - as I have been for the past however many months. I wouldn't go back to it - no way. Trust me, it will be hard for him, but you have to try not to think about that to really move on with you. You have to not care - make yourself do so even if you don't mean it, fake it. Your emotions will catch up. Sure, you may always love him, but at least you wont spend all your time wondering about him.

 

All the best Izzy x

[Hazyhead]

Hi Hazy,

 

I truly do wish for you (and everyone) that they find a deep, relationship that fulfils them in mind, body and soul ... so I hope that, if this is the relationship for you, then this latest development works out well.

 

I'd be interested to know if in the original email did he detail upfront that his wife had thrown him out and he had decided not to go back ... so that you had the choice of how you responded to that. Or was that information not volunteered until face to face when it is more easy to influence. ie , did he drip feed or consciously/unconsciously manage information flow for his benefit.

 

He left the family home almost a year ago, Chris. Over the year they have talked about trying to fix it but it seems that it never really moved anywhere. At first he drip-fed a bunch of lies to his wife, well, over the whole time really, but in the email he told me that he has told her the truth - the whole truth - to which there doesn't seem like there will be much going back. He told her he had tried to work it out for the sake of their child but he should have left a year ago and saved everybody the pain he caused them.

 

Secondly, when was this fight with his W and how long elapsed before he emailed you? Has he taken any time to deal with the realities of separation with a child (ie to agree visitation, child support etc) before contacting you. Has he taken the time to resolve the situation in a respectful way with his W before contacting you. ie .. is he clearly demonstrating that, even though separating, he is respecting the feelings of his W and child and you by having put clear distance between finishing with her and getting you involved in the situation.

 

As I said, he has lived on his own now for quite some time, but he does understand that there will be a transitional period. He told her before he emailed me, but there was not much time lapsed, no. Hence the reason I am just keeping a little bit of distance for now until it settles a bit.

This is my worry though, how much distance and time should we put?

 

Has he involved you in a situation that is under control and sorted .. and hence demonstrated a deep respect for the path of your life and your needs.

 

Has he been living on his own with the relationship with his W finished .. or has it been him being out of the house because of the A, with him trying to patch it up? ie has he spent time alone dealing with the realities of a divorce and the loneliness and self-reflection (and ultimately the learning) that this brings.

 

Why was it a possibility that his w would be banging angrily on the door .. and if it was because all this is very fresh why has he involved you in a situation that is not yet resolved?

 

It wasn't that it was a possibility - it's just that he couldn't think of who else it would be. It was a man's knock. But she is angry at the moment, angry that he lied about his feelings for me and his reasons for staying for almost a year. understandably so.

 

I guess what I am asking is what qualities has he evidenced and demonstrated *right now* that confirms his suitability as an ideal life partner ...

 

Has he:

a) let his wife down honestly, gently (but firmly) and taken time to respect her (and his child) as people by sorting out all the myriad of details one by one, without drama and without inflaming emotions

 

Not yet - this will be a process I will try to keep away from. He has set it in motion but I think the details will take a while?

 

b) loved himself enough (and been self aware enough) to give himself time to heal and process the divorce so that he is able to enter complete and whole into any new relationship in his life

 

He has been through the process of coming to terms with being on your own, but I think coming to terms with the divorce will be a whole separate thing altogether. We have discussed talking it very slowly so that we're sure the relationship is one that works and, as wwiu says, is away from the affair dynamic which neither of us wants.

 

c) Respected you, your life enough to not dangle any carrots in front of you before he is able to honour his commitment to you .. so that your relationship with him is as equals rather than with you always sub-consciously aware that he is not divorced and has the potential to go back ?

 

His words were that he understands why I would be full of mistrust for him being fully committed and not bouncing back when it gets hard, but he told me that his actions would prove it and that he wants to show me that I am his priority now. I guess time will tell, huh?

 

 

In shorter words, I guess, has he fundamentally respected the rights of all parties involved to be treated independantly and not brought together to make a drama just to satisfy his needs/insecurity/impatience.

 

Or has he instantly pursued his own needs at the risk of inflaming drama and causing distress to others?

 

If he has maturely resolved issues and not inturrupted your life until he can honour it with the respect it deserves then I think that it's a truly wonderfull thing. If he's got you back involved in a not-yet fully resolved situation with an angry wife then I would be worried what that says about his deep regard for the sanctity and stability of your life.

 

If he just had to tell you to confirm you'd be there when he'd finished the next actions then why did he need to do that?

 

Not sure if this makes any sense or not ... just thoughts from reading the order of what you'd wrote etc

 

Please feel absolutely empowered to ignore everything I've wrote (except the bit about hoping everyone finds a special, deep relationship :)) and please don't think I am not pleased for you .. I am.

 

I just think it's not about words or how people say they will behave in the future .. it's about how they are behaving right now ... PARTICULARLY with people who are not the focus of their attention.

 

be safe

 

Chris

:)

 

I appreciate what you are saying, Chris, as always, and I am aware of the shaky ground I'm on right now. With distance, I've decided that I want to give it a shot. Little steps, but steps towards him. I know I risk being hurt but we have spent so much time apart now that I feel like I am ready for him in my life, and I think, little at a time, me in his. I guess a lot of the good points you raise will be ones that we come to discuss in therapy.

 

Hi Hazy. Been out of town for several days and when I saw your post, I had to read it first.

 

 

 

I agree.

 

 

 

I agree.

 

 

 

Excellent post Chris, as usual

 

Hazy, I am not sure how I am feeling for you...to be honest.

 

I am concerned because I feel the few things you have said about his wife, you have in a way put her down. Remember, she is the one whose H was cheating. Remember, he is the one who has been lying to her. Can you blame her for being pissed? Can you blame her for any anger she has been experiencing?

 

I guess I don't really get how you can (if you are) sweeping away what he did, not only to you, but to his wife.

 

He has hurt you so much; yet it seems as if you have forgiven all that, because you love him.

 

I am guessing his wife loves him too and she may not go without a fight.

 

Please do not take sides in their divorce. Please do not belittle her feelings or feel as if she doesn't have a right to be angry or upset. Please do not get in the middle of their divorce.

 

I also don't like that he jumped from her to you, without bothering to truly get his sh*t squared away first. It is as if he needs you to help him through this or he can't do this alone. The word coward continues to come to mind.

 

But it is ultimately your life and your decision. You are a big girl You know that trusting him again could lead to more heartache for you. You know he can lie and mistreat/disrespect others. You had it done to you.

 

Please don't jump in with both feet yet. Please give it time. Please let him get the counseling HE needs. He needs to learn why he is a cheater, why he hurts others and why he behaves the way he does.

 

I agree with WWIU in that to make the relationship work, you have to start over - get away from the affair dynamic. You have to 'forget' the past, but not forget that he is capable of the things he is capable of.

 

I do believe you deserve better. I do believe you are too good for him.

 

But I also want you happy. IF he is it, he has a lot of proving of himself to do and you need to keep your eyes open and the sparkles out of your eyes so you can really see him and really determine if he is worthy of you.

 

I am not trying to poo-poo anything, but you know I care about you and want you to be happy. You have been through a lot and I don't want to see you hurting anymore

 

I hope 2011 is good to you - no matter how things turn out with him. Happy New Year my friend ((hugs))

 

Hi FO! I re-read my posts and you're right, what I say about her sounds incredibly negative, which I regret. I do not for one second blame her for her anger and distress, that is all on him. It's hard when you only hear it from one point of view but that's something I need to be careful with I suppose - not taking his side over hers. It's their issue and has happened behind closed doors. I will try not to get involved.

 

I haven't forgiven him, FO. I told him this and he said he doesn't blame me but wants to prove his intentions towards me. Again, the hurt I will discuss with him but I also don't want to dwell on badness once it has gone for me.

 

I do truly understand all your points, and know that it seems like a sudden jump, which it might well be, but I will try to tread with care.

 

I haven't seen him since we spoke on Wednesday and I have told him that I will need a couple of weeks but he should use that time to talk with his wife about how they intend to proceed, before he brings it to me. It is hard to see him without the sparks in my eyes but I am trying I have told him this, too. In counselling they're exactly the things he discusses and he wants to be a better man. I do want to be there for him but the changes he has to make on his own - not to mention picking up the mess he has left behind with his wife.

 

As ever, thank you so much, I always appreciate your opinion and I think you know this. If I need a backside kicking, which I may at some point, you'll be the first to know.

 

 

 

Happy new year Chris and FO.

[Hazyhead]

Lot's of good posts in this thread Hazy......and I'd like to second the motion that SilverPlanets and FO's addressed the things I wanted to say, but wasn't sure how.

 

I think you are a wonderful, smart, kind, caring woman Hazy and I want you to be with the kind of man who is deserving of you, so with those words, I sincerely wish you all the best!

 

Thank you BB. I am proceeding with caution and will not take any messing, I just won't.

 

It's a big risk, this I know, but I want to take it - albeit very slowly and with you guys at my back.

[Hazyhead]

hi hazy, haven't read everyone's replies just want to say good luck to you and hope all works out. It's so nice to hear a story that's different on this particular forum. I wish you all the very best and keep us posted.

 

Thank you, Siuys. All the best to you too. I hope the new year brings you all you deserve. Keep your chin up chicken - you're much stronger than you give yourself credit for. I applaud every difficult decision you've made so far.

 

Hugs,

Hazy

 

Hazy wishing you a happy new year and a new year filled with love. Boundaries etc are important but dont let fear push you away from something good. Trust your gut. Yes its possible that you could get hurt again but that is always possible. Its also possible that this could be a fresh start for something wonderful between you.

 

That's what I was trying to ask with this thread JJ, how to balance the fear and caution with desire. So many great points are really helping me to see that I need to be wary, at least, but maybe there is some hope here

[Hazyhead]

I share your cautious optimism, Hazy. It's just beginning, and there is a lot still lying ahead - but it's an important step.

 

Wow! It's a shocking moment isn't it?

 

It is a rocky road but if both you and MM work at it, it is a wonderful adventure!

 

I agree on taking time on the kid factor, my sMM has been out of the home for a year but due to the emotions and other factors I still have not met the kids and won't until the divorce is final. Lawyer agrees with this approach as well.

 

But our relationship is just lovely and I love the man so very much.

 

Congrats, keep your needs and boundaries up front and center and continue enjoying your life!

 

Having walked down the path I might be looking at, I appreciate you guys posting here. I do feel like he's taken a big step, but there are many more. I want to be there for him but not at the detriment of myself. It's the balance, like I mentioned, but I know that you two managed it and that inspires me.

 

I've told him I want to wait to meet his child, not because I don't want to, but, y'know, because I really should.

 

Thanks and all the best. x

[Hazyhead]

WWIU and FO, one thing I definitely will not do is the affair dynamic again. I haven't seen him since Wednesday as I think a little time will help, whereas in the A you jump at every opportunity and drop plans. He asked me to spend New Years with him but I had already arranged to be with my family so there was no way I would break that. Full honesty from this point onwards, no more sneaking around. He has offered his full time to me in that I can call him whenever and he will answer and he will tell no more lies about where he is when he's with me.

 

Or I'm off!

[jj33]

I dont think there is any strict formula. Different boundaries are right for different people. Some people would not see him until he was divorced. Others would jump in. You sound like you have good boundaries in place.

 

I think being too cautious and filing your mind with doubt and suspicion can create a self fulfilling prophecy. Trust has to be reearned once it has been broken but too much suspiscion can ruin what could otherwise be good.

 

Only time will tell. Dauting when your heart is on the line but thats the way it is. I wish you every happiness.

[MorningCoffee]

WWIU and FO, one thing I definitely will not do is the affair dynamic again. I haven't seen him since Wednesday as I think a little time will help, whereas in the A you jump at every opportunity and drop plans. He asked me to spend New Years with him but I had already arranged to be with my family so there was no way I would break that. Full honesty from this point onwards, no more sneaking around. He has offered his full time to me in that I can call him whenever and he will answer and he will tell no more lies about where he is when he's with me.

 

Or I'm off!

 

Hazy,

 

I am very happy for you. May the best outcome possible will be yours. At this point, it does sound like some very significant steps are being taken. Thoughtful caution seems in order, and from your posts it sounds like that is the approach you are following.

 

I bolded what may be one of the most salient aspects, the honesty moving forward. I imagine that will present challenges at times, but having left the affair dynamic behind, it will be its own reward. So refreshing, I would think. Sneaking is so corrosive to relationships. I think it is a major reason affairs wreak so much havoc on our self-esteem while in affair mode.

 

Good luck to you in the new year. Keep us posted, your friends at LS will be supporting you.

[jwi71]

He did get there first, and you're right, Spark. I've just been screamed at down the phone by her and told to f*** off by him. I'm done. I tried and have come off the worst.

 

He didn't tell her the truth, I can tell by the way she spoke to me. I dunno, I don't think she wants to see my side. He isn't related to my work but I might do that, pre-empt it.

 

God.

I want him gone - forever and today I've surprised myself with being upset at the lies he's pulled me into.

 

How soon we forget.

 

Do you remember how long ago this was? 3 months.

 

I'm sorry but just THREE MONTHS ago he was gaslighting her and lying to you. I'm not sure where you got the 6 month figure from because THREE MONTHS AGO (when supposedly living on his own) he did this.

 

Does that sound like the actions of a man disengaged from his W?

 

Believe what you will HH, but THREE MONTHS ago he tossed you under the bus. Again.

 

I'm truly at a loss for words.

[silverplanets]

HI Hazy,

 

Well done for your replies and taking it all in good spirit .. this whole thread reads to me like everyone wants you to be happy but also everyone wants you to be safe ...

 

Some more thoughts ... (again , just ignore if not relevant ... I won't get offended :))

 

I appreciate what you are saying, Chris, as always, and I am aware of the shaky ground I'm on right now. With distance, I've decided that I want to give it a shot. Little steps, but steps towards him. I know I risk being hurt but we have spent so much time apart now that I feel like I am ready for him in my life, and I think, little at a time, me in his. I guess a lot of the good points you raise will be ones that we come to discuss in therapy.

 

This is what worries me, you sound already invested in giving it another shot .. By moving the risk to "the future" you are saving yourself looking hard at what is right now ... and there seem to be bits of the "right now" which just sceam "red flag, red flag" ..

 

Hi FO! I re-read my posts and you're right, what I say about her sounds incredibly negative, which I regret. I do not for one second blame her for her anger and distress, that is all on him. It's hard when you only hear it from one point of view but that's something I need to be careful with I suppose - not taking his side over hers. It's their issue and has happened behind closed doors. I will try not to get involved.

 

Hazy - he is not yet divorced, not let it settle and he has you back in "with him" ... so you're already involved ... you're right it SHOULD be their issue .. which is why you need to ask yourself what you are doing back involved AT ALL, surely?

 

I haven't forgiven him, FO. I told him this and he said he doesn't blame me but wants to prove his intentions towards me. Again, the hurt I will discuss with him but I also don't want to dwell on badness once it has gone for me.

 

Hazy - why do you need to discuss your hurt with him ????..., if you haven't healed yet then are you honestly in a good position to go into any new relationship (no matter with whom?). Also ... why are you afraid to discuss your hurt with him ... "to dwell on the badness" .. is it because you don't want to upset him, drive him away ??? in which case is the dynamic of a wife still being there already influencing your behaviour???

 

I do truly understand all your points, and know that it seems like a sudden jump, which it might well be, but I will try to tread with care.

 

Hazy - treading with care means you've made an assumption that you're "going in" ... isn't your responsibility to yourself at this time to honestly and objectively assess whether you should tread there at all???? (and the answer "but I want to" .. doesn't wash for me, because "I want to" is based upon your view of him as someone who is good for you ... and he's already proved he's perfectly capable of hurting you ... so you need more solid evidence than that I would argue)

 

I haven't seen him since we spoke on Wednesday and I have told him that I will need a couple of weeks but he should use that time to talk with his wife about how they intend to proceed, before he brings it to me. It is hard to see him without the sparks in my eyes but I am trying I have told him this, too. In counselling they're exactly the things he discusses and he wants to be a better man. I do want to be there for him but the changes he has to make on his own - not to mention picking up the mess he has left behind with his wife.

 

Hazy - why are YOU telling him that he should use that time to talk to his wife. Why isn't HE dealing with his business ...

 

What does "want to be a better man" mean ... a better man to me would be someone who controlled their own needs and actions in order to look after the mental wellbeing of their child .... if that means not contacting you whilst he lets 6 months/1 year /whatever elapse so that the split is amicable for his child then so be it .. that's what BEING THE BETTER MAN means .. it's not something you aspire to ... it's something you DO .. and HAVE BEEN DOING ...

 

As ever, thank you so much, I always appreciate your opinion and I think you know this. If I need a backside kicking, which I may at some point, you'll be the first to know.

 

I didn't start to this post in order to kick your backside .. but as I read through everything then it seems to have turned into that .. sorry ! ... it's just that I care !

Happy new year Chris and FO.

 

And Happy New Year to you Hazy :)

 

How soon we forget.

 

Do you remember how long ago this was? 3 months.

 

I'm sorry but just THREE MONTHS ago he was gaslighting her and lying to you. I'm not sure where you got the 6 month figure from because THREE MONTHS AGO (when supposedly living on his own) he did this.

 

Does that sound like the actions of a man disengaged from his W?

 

Believe what you will HH, but THREE MONTHS ago he tossed you under the bus. Again.

 

I'm truly at a loss for words.

 

Hazy ... I can't remember this post but I AM impressed at the level of care and compassion jwi has shown by challenging you with this ... only someone who truly has your best interests at heart would take the time and risk upsetting you by pointing out the above ...

 

I feel like a real miser writing this post cause i KNOW just how up in the air him contacting you again has made you feel and WHO AM I to say that he's not completely reformed and your perfect partner.

 

I do, though, have to (cause I care) list a few things which appear to be facts and which, if someone else told you, might lead to you advising them not to get involved ...

 

a) He IS still married ... so yes, any relationship will be as an OW ... so you are overriding any boundary you have made about not getting involved with a married man again. Isn't this a red flag to YOUR boundaries .. and therefore shouldn't this be a NO on it's own?

b) There was, if I read your reply correctly, a very short time between him telling her and him contacting you ... isn't that just a huge red flag and shouldn't this just be a NO on it's own

c) He has not thought to control his actions and be entirely on his own whilst he sorts out this mess for the benefit of his child ... but instead has involved you immediately and, by all account, it is only YOU who is slowing it down ... he wants you in there right now ... isn't that a red flag and shouldn't this just be a NO on it's own ...

d) He has, in your own words, gaslighted another human being for 12 months ... and then, rather than give her the truth gently has just dumped it on her and them come immediately to you ... isn't THAT a red flag and shouldn't this just be a no on it's own

 

Hazy, might I suggest that these are not the actions of a "good man"?

 

 

OK, I KNOW every bit of you wants back in ... but I'm just challenging you as to what are your boundaries on what is a good relationship for Hazy ... and surely it's not something you can afford to be hazy on .. either you have your boundaries or you don't ...

 

OK, I feel this post is going to read very stroppy and it's not ... it's a post that says "I care" and also says "Please step back and consider is this a suitable relationship for you, does it conform to your requirements of a healthy relationship" ...

 

ie, I am trying to say that surely it is not about whether he has changed or not .... it is about whether Hazy has a set of rules which define what is a healthy relationship and what is an instant no-no ... and if Hazy does have such a set of rules then does this contravene any/all of them RIGHT NOW, as it stands- not at some mythical point in the future.

 

If so, what does Hazy do in that case?

 

You have worked *so* hard to get to where you are, and if this man really does love you and is a good guy then that love will not die during the years that it takes for him to close his marriage in a reasonable way to his wife, make his daughter his priority for as long as it takes to ensure her mental well-being, and give himself the time after all that to really work out why it went wrong, who is is and what he wants to do with his life.

 

Being a good man is not something you claim or go to counselling for. It is something you do, quietly and daily by yourself, in every choice you make. In my experience as a single father it involves NOT bringing drama into a situation so that your child's mental and emotional well-being is preserved, it involves saying No when you want to say yes because it is not the right thing for you child's health and it involves making every descision against the criteria "what is the right choice for the emotional well being and development of my child".

 

ps: I am not saying don't do it, I guess all I am saying is don't get mixed up between the vision of who you see and the behaviour you see. You have a man who has come to you far to soon, is still married, has got you back involved in a drama situation, has chosen not to focus (alone) on his daughter for the next 6-12 months to ease the transition , is promising to put you first (when common logic says that his daughter should come first) and would have you back over full time asap if it wasn't for you saying no.

 

I know that if I met someone who was trying to start a new relationship at a time when I thought they should be focused on their child then I would really wonder about their inner priorities ... and if they needed me to tell them that then I would really wonder about their inner values.

 

I suppose the good news is that maybe he is just behaving in this fashion due to intolerable mental stress/pressure ... but in that case you are choosing to get involved with someone who's promising you things whilst under intolerable mental stress/pressure .... ???

 

OK, you probably absolutely hate me now ... so I'm going to stop ... I think i've made my point ... I care for you, I care for your struggle to date and I personally don't think (from an impartial view) that this man is in any way ready for any new relationship. He should focus on his own daughter (even if separated from his wife) and show enough respect for his next partner to leave clear (1 year plus imho) space between for everyone to move on with minimal emotional stress (including him).

 

BUT ... i'm equally likely to be wrong and I certainly would not want you to make any choice based upon my views. All I want is for you to CHALLENGE yourself about the facts you already have.

 

I believe you have fought hard enough to earn yourself that honesty with yourself.

 

If you have and still want to go back in then you'll NEVER hear me criticize you for it .. because I know you have the deep down strength to own your descision and not shirk responsibility.

 

Whatever you choose, do so with your head held high Hazy and don't forget that the only one truly looking after you is you, and that is as it should be.

 

The absolute best of wishes

Chris

Edited January 1, 2011 by silverplanets

[cavedweller]

Chris,

 

I agree with you...that she needs to proceed with caution..

 

This 'Mr. Perfect' is still married and she needs to thread easy..

 

my 2 cents

 

cavedweller

[Got it]

I don't know hazy's history so can only speak generically. But, like so many things, actions speak the loudest and the fundemental dynamic on your respect for each other will continue to hold true.

 

The EMR was no excuse for poor behaviour and the divorcing stage isn't either. SMM went through some rough stages, and he still is, but we are a team and respect each other's feelings and needs. Communication is key and time is your friend. If it is meant to be there is no rush for anything.

 

Being with sMM has been one of the most challenging and most rewarding relationships I have been in starting day 1. I started in the EMR with the mantra that this man was beyond lucky to have me in his life, especially as a mistress and that continues as his girlfriend. I do whatever I can to show my love for him every day and with every action and I expect/receive the same from him. He really loves so well.

 

So don't underestimate your worth, your importance, and what a hot commody you are. He is lucky to have you in his life, make sure he makes you feel like that.

[2themoon&back]

On Boxing day I received an email from MM. In it he told me that he had told his wife he wanted a divorce and wanted to be with me. He came clean that everything he said to her after dday was one lie after another just to minimise the trouble but he can't lie to himself anymore. He told her he did love me and still does and needs to act on it.

 

After speaking to him, in person at the new house he is renting, he has said that he'll do anything to prove his commitment to me, including giving me whatever space I may need.

 

God. I still do love this man and think we could be so good together, but it'll be a rocky road, right?

 

 

Happy New Year Hazy, and I am happy for you!!

 

I wish for you all the best and hope you indulge yourself with all that is offered to you at the moment, because no matter what happens you have worked very hard for yourself and I know you have the confidence and strength to handle the uncertain.

[pureinheart]

Hi Hazy:),

 

I am so happy for you, you are a really cool person...I wish you all of the best:)

 

Happy New Year! ((((((((((hugs)))))))))

[donnamaybe]

Good luck, hon. I hope he has truly changed his ways and that everything works out wonderfully.

[Hazyhead]

Hi guys. Sorry for the delay in responding - things manic. Thank you so much to all your well wishes . JW and Chris, I will respond in more detail, thank you so much for taking the time to hit me with it - I mean that. Right now I've not decided anything - so much is going on that I haven't really had time to think. And, I haven't forgotten all that he has done in the past, far from it, but just trying to figure out if it's workable.

 

I will be back to respond fully. Argh! Hope you're all well and had a fab christmas and new year.

 

Hugs to all,

Hazy x