sonofhud2 Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Because I want everyone to know the love of God as I do. How can they reject God if they don't know anything about him? I believe God provides more than enough grace through giving his Son for us; however, we are not worthy because of sin. No amount of good works can erase that stain - only the blood of Jesus. We can ask God to forgive us of that sin, which he does because he has mercy on us and he loves us. If we don't ask for forgiveness, then he will not give it to us. We don't know who will go to heaven and we don't know who's going to hell, so its better to try to preach to everyone than no one. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 1. Do you beleive in predestination? I've tried my best to find something absolute, but I find conflicting information on whether or not Baptists are Calvinist in ideology. 2. Is it possible that your preaching actually drives people away from organized religion? As in, it's counterproductive, that it may serve your purpose of feeling like you're spreading the good news, but the way it's packaged may not be appealing to those whom you deliver to? Link to post Share on other sites
sonofhud2 Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Originally posted by dyermaker 1. Do you beleive in predestination? I've tried my best to find something absolute, but I find conflicting information on whether or not Baptists are Calvinist in ideology. This is a tough question... I, personally, believe everyone has a choice. I also believe God knows the choice they will make in the end, but they still have the power to make that choice. If that makes any sense. I couldn't tell you what the baptist church believes on this subject.....and I've been going there my whole life. Jesus himself said "enter through the narrow gate" and that "only a few find it". 2. Is it possible that your preaching actually drives people away from organized religion? As in, it's counterproductive, that it may serve your purpose of feeling like you're spreading the good news, but the way it's packaged may not be appealing to those whom you deliver to? I completely agree with this and this has been one of my biggest complaints against organized religion, especially in the church I grew up in,which was Southern Baptist. My pastor happened to come into where I work the other day (kinda ironic because I had been praying that God would give me the courage to go to church to talk to my pastor). We talked about everything from the movie "the passion" to some questions I had been contemplating ever since I saw that movie. I told him I'd be coming out to see him soon with some questions....so I have yet to do that and this is one of the topics I plan to really grill him on Not that he is some all powerful, all knowing guy.....I think he will know how to answer in a way I can understand. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Originally posted by sonofhud2 I, personally, believe everyone has a choice. If you believe this, you reject predestination. I also believe God knows the choice they will make in the end, but they still have the power to make that choice. If that makes any sense. It does not, which brings me back to confusion over your statement that some do not have the grace neccessary to reach heaven. I couldn't tell you what the baptist church believes on this subject.....and I've been going there my whole life. I'm pretty sure that Baptism came from Calvinism, and Calvin is the trailblazer of the belief that you are born with your fate predetermined. Which brings me to the question to EVERY Calvinist who tries to convert me to Christianity (many of whom are under the impression Catholicism isn't so)--why bother attempting to convert me if my fate is already sealed? I think he will know how to answer in a way I can understand. I wish you the best, and if you could ask him these questions about sanctifying grace, I would be grateful. I don't seek to attack your beliefs, only to edify myself. Link to post Share on other sites
befuddled11 Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Originally posted by dyermaker 2. Is it possible that your preaching actually drives people away from organized religion? As in, it's counterproductive, that it may serve your purpose of feeling like you're spreading the good news, but the way it's packaged may not be appealing to those whom you deliver to? I know you addressed this question to SonofHud but I thought I'd take a crack at it, too. First of all, let me start by saying I was raised Catholic. All of my immediate family are practicing Catholics. When I was in High School (attended Catholic school, too), our Catholic church was a very charismatic one.....where along with the "stuff" about praying to the saints and Mary (which I've never bought), we had a young (30's) "born again" Catholic priest who rocked. He actually taught us about being "saved".....what salvation is all about. Probably not that common in Catholic churches, he was cool and hip with very "with it" and he made going to church as a teenager, something you looked forward to. Much like the Baptists and Evangelicals, etc...he preached about the A B C's of being a Christian: Admitting you're a sinner and asking God to forgive you....Believing that Jesus died on the cross to forgive our sins and save us, and then Committing your life and heart to God. However, I moved away from my home town long ago, and never did find a Catholic church even remotely close. I've since left the Catholic church because I find it rigid, ritualistic, dry, boring, and to me, "off track" in a lot of ways. Though I guess it has its good points. I've been to many churches. I've had people "preach" and "minister" to me. I've been put on the spot and had strangers at a new church approach me and ask if I'm "saved" and want me to stand there and share my testimony. I'm sure their heart's in the right place, but I find it personally offensive to be "put on the spot" like that, and I could see someone who was "unsure" about God/Christianity, who was maybe there for the first time, being totally turned off and never to return. I think there's a way to "minister" to people without shoving your beliefs down their throat and sending them running. I've had coworkers who were very "born again" Christians..well, they were fanatical, in my mind, and every time I turned around and made a comment about something at work, they'd say to me, "well have you prayed about it?" I would cringe. I don't believe that kind of "stuff" is appropriate in the workplace, but that's another post... I look at someone like Billy Graham......world renowned televangelist. Ever been to, or watched one of his Crusades on TV? He has a wonderful way of sharing God with people.......yet he's not pushy.........and at each Crusade, there's thousands who commit their hearts and lives to Christ, right there..........he's a wonderful example. I actually was 9 yrs old when I watched one of his crusades on TV......and it was then that I asked Jesus into my heart (and yep, we were all Catholic!!) Sharing about God shouldn't be synonymous with shoving one's convictions and beliefs down someone's throat. To be an effective Christian, I think it's all in the delivery. I don't think it's ever wrong or pointless to witness to people.....and if nothing else, if you feel their heart is hardened, you can at least pray for them. That can't hurt! At this time, I'm not attending any church. I would like to, but have had some bad experiences with "new churches" like mentioned above.....where i was immediately "singled out" as the "newbie" and I felt zoomed in on, and put on the spot......and I feel my relationship with God is personal and I'm not about to stand there and have someone put my words under the microscope as I try to tell them what i believe. I find that offensive. I don't think that's how you minister to people or lead them to Christ.......I think that's a darn good way to scare them off or run them off. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Originally posted by sonofhud2 Jesus himself said "enter through the narrow gate" and that "only a few find it". The beauty of Jesus' teachings is that he concluded nothing, he never explicitly answered questions. Using this reference as evidence that only a few are destined for salvation is 180 degrees from the entire message of Christ. It is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his garden, and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air made nests in its branches." And again he said, "To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? It is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened." -J.C., on Kingdom of God The door indeed is narrow, but like a small mustard seed and other culturally relevant examples at the time, something small grows into something big if we foster it. Saying that humanity is destined at birth not to enter the narrow gate into heaven is, in my humble opinion, ridiculous. Link to post Share on other sites
sonofhud2 Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Ok...lets make sure we are on the same page about what grace is. I'm talking about grace as God's compassionate, unconditional love for sinful humanity. I read that you have several definitions of grace which kind of confuses me. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Originally posted by befuddled11 where along with the "stuff" about praying to the saints and Mary Oh brother, you're propagating a ridiculously untrue slur about Catholics--why wasn't this addressed in your Catholic School? Such prayers are for intercession to God. You aren't praying to Mary, you're asking Mary to pray for you. Sharing about God shouldn't be synonymous with shoving one's convictions and beliefs down someone's throat. To be an effective Christian, I think it's all in the delivery. I don't think it's ever wrong or pointless to witness to people.....and if nothing else, if you feel their heart is hardened, you can at least pray for them. That can't hurt! I agree, wholeheartedly. I may disagree that Church has to be fun and hip for it to be spiritually relevant, but I'd never want someone to go unless they wanted to be there. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Originally posted by sonofhud2 I read that you have several definitions of grace which kind of confuses me. There ARE several definitions of Grace. There's Grace that's maintained, provided, denied, and randomly given--they all have different effects on the saving grace that I *think* you're referring to. But I wasn't trying to make this a battle over the semantics, can you clarify, using your definition, your position on predestination? Even using your definition of Grace, the mere idea that our souls are predestined seems to put a HUGE condition on a love you call 'unconditional'. Link to post Share on other sites
sonofhud2 Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Saying that humanity is destined at birth not to enter the narrow gate into heaven is, in my humble opinion, ridiculous. Well, ridiculous or not, God detests sin and we are all born into sin. So to say that we(humanity) are born destined to enter the narrow gate of heaven, makes no sense, because the gate would not be narrow? Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Originally posted by sonofhud2 Well, ridiculous or not, God detests sin and we are all born into sin. So to say that we(humanity) are born destined to enter the narrow gate of heaven, makes no sense, because the gate would not be narrow? Read what I posted about the mustard seed. The gate is narrow for those who aren't looking for it, and few will find it if a mustard seed is all they are trying to pick out. Why do you profess your faith if you KNOW that no one can change their destiny? Baptism frees us of original sin. Narrow gates don't mean people can't enter them, bastardizing a metaphor, it just means we have to enter slowly, one at a time. I'm being facetious about that, but grace cannot be maintained without acceptance from the SOUL, INTELLECT, and WILL--> How can we accept God with our will, if our fate is beyond our will? Predestination denies us of grace, because it makes our spiritual decisions out of our hands. Why would God give us a gift if he doesn't trust us to use it? Link to post Share on other sites
sonofhud2 Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 OK, I will use this example as I have before. Bruce Almighty? Ever seen it? Bruce wants his girlfriend to love him after he has hurt her. He has all the powers of God, yet he still can't make this girl love him. God loves us all. If he didn't, then there would have been no need for Jesus. God wants us to love him back, but he can not make us. Therefore, we have the choice to return his love or not return his love. I do believe he knows who loves him and accepts him before we are born, but they have to come to make that choice. He does not choose specific people. They choose him. Link to post Share on other sites
sonofhud2 Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Baptism frees us of original sin. Not everyone believes this. You are baptized as a Catholic baby, what about everyone else? Of course this will lead to a completely seperate discussion concering the differences in our beliefs about baptism. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Originally posted by sonofhud2 God loves us all. If he didn't, then there would have been no need for Jesus. God wants us to love him back, but he can not make us. Therefore, we have the choice to return his love or not return his love. I do believe he knows who loves him and accepts him before we are born, but they have to come to make that choice. He does not choose specific people. They choose him. It's a paradox that I cannot rationalize. If the people don't have any say in the matter, why would you bother preaching to them? Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Originally posted by sonofhud2 You are baptized as a Catholic baby, what about everyone else? Of course this will lead to a completely seperate discussion concering the differences in our beliefs about baptism. I wasn't speaking of Ritual Catholic Infant Baptism, and I lack the eloquence to explain what baptism is, but there exists tons of literature on it. What is baptism to you? What does it achieve? Link to post Share on other sites
sonofhud2 Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 I'm not sure how else I can word it. How do you get "people don't have any say in the matter" from "He does not choose specific people. They choose him."? Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Originally posted by sonofhud2 I'm not sure how else I can word it. How do you get "people don't have any say in the matter" from "He does not choose specific people. They choose him."? If you believe in predestination, you believe that souls are already destined for heaven or hell before they reach Earth. Thus, they have NO say over the matter. That is Calvinism, among other things. Link to post Share on other sites
sonofhud2 Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 I just read over a passage from a Calvinist perspective...and some of it makes sense to me....but I'm not ready to agree with it yet. http://www.mslick.com/predestination.htm Can we agree that humans have a sinful nature? Link to post Share on other sites
sonofhud2 Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 OK...I think I finally just had my moment of clarity. You are absolutely right. Why would we spend our lives here on Earth trying to reach those who are unreachable? The calvinists argue that we are lucky any of us get to go to heaven rather than all. If God predermined our destiny, then Adam and Eve would have never sinned in the first place. They made the choice. Without choice, just like Adam and Eve, we would be prisoners, rather than children, of God. So, I guess you can say this has been a productive thread for me. Good job, dyer. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Originally posted by sonofhud2 You are absolutely right. Why would we spend our lives here on Earth trying to reach those who are unreachable? Whether or not I'm right is a matter of opinion, but this is certainly not what I'm saying. I believe that everyone is born with sanctifying grace, and no one is unreachable. Do you remember the shepherd who left his herd of 99 to retrieve the one lost sheep? No one is unreachable. The calvinists argue that we are lucky any of us get to go to heaven rather than all. Yes, one of my many disagreements with the Calvinists. So, I guess you can say this has been a productive thread for me. Good job, dyer. It's not my thread, nor was it my intention for you to change your beliefs. It's ambigious, from my perspective, whether you believe in predestination. Link to post Share on other sites
sonofhud2 Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 No, thats what I was saying. Everyone is reachable, otherwise we are wasting our time and lives. And I am not really changing my beliefs, more like coming to realize them. I am not set in my ways like SOME older people are. To be honest with you, I don't know what I believe on a lot of issues. I know what I have been taught to believe, but I'm at that point in my life in which I'm questioning what I've been taught and trying to discover on my own what I believe. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 I wish you luck. Link to post Share on other sites
Author quankanne Posted March 18, 2004 Author Share Posted March 18, 2004 on baptism: I thought that to baptize someone in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit was to spiritually "cleanse" that person of sin, including original sin ... whether the person practices Catholicism or a Protestant faith tradition. It's not so easy to point out a Catholic and say they are living a scandalous life because there is no one point in time in which they are supposed to be dramatically changed and turn from sin. the point of turning away from sin and embracing Gospel values is that when you do so, you do it with the understanding that you're going to try your best to shed the old ways, also understanding that because you're human, you'll slip up more than you'd like. However, the relative who "claimed" Jesus in the Dairy Queen parking lot told the preacher who witnessed his profession of faith that even though he was now a believer, he wasn't going to give up his lifestyle. Hence my finding this "scandalous" situation: if you've agreed to live a certain lifestyle, but willingly chose to practice otherwise, it is cause for scandal. Link to post Share on other sites
sonofhud2 Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 on baptism: I thought that to baptize someone in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit was to spiritually "cleanse" that person of sin, including original sin ... whether the person practices Catholicism or a Protestant faith tradition. I agree with that definition, but I never really understood or researched why Catholics are baptized as babies. As a baptist, I always thought of baptism as a symbolic ritual, being baptized not for a literal cleansing, but an act to profess your new life publically in the begining stages of your journey to be more like Christ. Link to post Share on other sites
UCFKevin Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 To be honest with you, I don't know what I believe on a lot of issues. I know what I have been taught to believe, but I'm at that point in my life in which I'm questioning what I've been taught and trying to discover on my own what I believe. Personally, I think this is one of the smartest things I've seen anyone say on here. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts