This phrase is suppose to make it all better

[wheelwright]

We're all selfish, a lot of the time. Unfortunately, I am of the opinion that Western Society in general has swung to a dimension of "What's in it for me-ness", a condition of thinking that very often we want things to go our way because, why the hell shouldn't they, we deserve it.... don't we?"

 

I didn't think in my A about entitlement, though xMOM did. I felt if it was real love, which I thought many in life miss, it was worth something more than the moral reasons to avoid. I admit I may well have been wrong.

 

This is such an odd argument as to be obtuse. I truly don't know anybody who's ever been in the position of committing such a heinous crime. So really, the argument is a distraction form the real options available to you.

Your options were far less morally difficult to calculate: "Do I keep my promise, break it and renege on it - or do I finally admit I'm unable to keep it any longer, and request being released from the contract?"

You chose the middle option, when you had the third one at your fingertips. It;s just that the middle one was easier to go for.

 

No, this is a very real issue. A promise is not just right because it was made. It needs constant reevaluation as to its meaning. I once promised to a boyfriend who meant an awful lot to me that I would never nose kiss with another. Maybe I am wrong to break the promise, but I do that with my kids and I feel Ok about it.

 

Not so. Infidelity is the result of someone who has decided they don't want to adhere to the promise and commitment to M.

They have ceased worrying whether it was right. They have decided it was wrong.

That's why the choice of being unfaithful was so utterly tempting as to be a compelling convincing option.

 

I agree.

 

No they're not. The moment that having an affir is a certainty, they have taken theuir eye completely off the Marital ball. It's a done deal. having the affair is easier than facing the Music.

 

No, because they have the eye on the maybe ball, not the done deal. Although I agree giving up on fidelity in many Rs means they have decided the experience with another is worth the risk. I did.

 

So you're saying that they actually want to have sex with someone else, before deciding whether they're happy to stay married, or reinvest energy in their marriage...? They want to play the field before deciding whether they want to make the effort to address their marital issues?

Don't you think by then, it's too late for that?

 

In some ways, but only in the ways of the M. That isn't a factor in the effect of the A on the M.

 

 

And where exactly is the flaw in that plan?

Is it because you never wanted to do the MC part?

in that case, go straight for the D!!

 

Have you ever tried D a man you have been with for 19 years? Whom you have young kids with?

 

Have you tried MC with someone you don't want to hurt, but who doesn't want you to leave?

 

Yes, but at least it's an open and honest admittance, not a breakdown and deception by the back door.

It's called facing up to facts and stepping up to the plate. Biting the bullet and dealing with it head on.

 

 

 

You're missing the point. Morally, it's deceptive, and hurtful to have an affair behind their back. This is where the selfishness really comes to the fore. There's nothing selfish about being open, honest and candid with someone about your feelings. yes it hurts, but it hurts less than being lied to.

 

This is where the ethical quandary kicks in. There are times in our lives when we decide that a certain truth should be with held from another. Because it would hurt them.

 

 

I'm sorry, I just see this as trying to justify your own actions in lying to your H and screwing someone behind his back, simply to establish justification of you lying and cheating. You're under the microscope. And deceit doesn't wash.

 

But I don't justify. I think my actions were wrong. My reasons might be different.

 

You have nothing to work out with us. You're trying to convince us that having an affair behind your husband's back was a better option that that of being honest, upfront and dealing with your issues on the same page. We don't buy it.

 

I know that. I am trying to say there is not only one way to see it.

 

 

I don't buy it.

There is nothing "wise" about the choice between having an affair, and not having an affair. it's a clear-cut decision, and you chose to satisfy your own needs, desires and preferences, rather than considering the pain your H would feel upon discovering another man was sticking his dick between your legs.

Sorry to be so blunt, but this is what it comes down to.

"Honesty and decency and dignity with my H, or having a ball in the sack with my lover>"

 

I said the same. No wisdom.

 

That's all your choice came down to. And you chose the latter. because you wanted to.

I doubt very much that the moral dilemma of selfishness or honesty towards your husband even crossed your mind while you were shagging your lover.

 

While I was shagging (or talking to) said lover, I felt I was with someone I had always known. It blew my mind, not because of good sex, but because of that feeling. I still find it hard to understand that part of my R with xMOM. Because I trusted that feeling.

 

There is no question of wisdom or lack of it, in sex with a third party.

It's a no-brainer. What wisdom do you need?

Wisdom consists of understanding while you make your vows that this means you.

 

This is just a way of saying "I couldn't help it, it just happened. I wasn't thinking straight."

Actually, you were. You knew damned well when you decided to have sex with your lover that you were still married. so I'm afraid all this talk of wisdom and lack of mental clarity, is hogwash.

lack of mental clarity doesn't include amnesia.

 

 

No, they're extremely simple.

You don't do it.

Can't be any simpler than that.

 

 

You have to let go, let it be and move on. the more you think you have to 'come to a place of peace with all these feelings" - the further away you move from it.

The more you focus on analysis, the more you keep yourself rooted in that state.

 

It won't let me me be either way. I am 42 nearly. By your analysis, I got suddenly taken by a man at the age of 39. Wrongly.

 

I agree my analysis might not help, but what do you recommend for someone who felt it that deelply? Because walking away dusting your fingers don't work.

 

There's nothing wrong at all with that rudimentary ethical system. It's simple,. forthright and practical. Unfortunately, you chose to ignore all three.

 

No.

 

No, I think it forms the bass of a very good starting point.

be kind, hurt no-one, help others and say thank you.

 

What else do you believe you have to do?

 

I believe now, after rudimentary reading, that we may need a life plan.

Edited January 15, 2011 by wheelwright

[Distant78]

My selfishness would have been evidenced anyway I behaved.

 

You're speaking as if you have no control over your own body and impulses.

[wheelwright]

Breaking a promise, if you truly believe you should have never made the promise in the first place is not necessarily a bad thing to do. However, breaking a promise in secret is not the same as simply breaking a promise, is it? It is adding a dimension of deception to the original promise maker which clearly takes it out of the "painful moral dilemma" realm and into the "I don't want to get caught breaking my promise and deal with the fallout" realm. The first has a certain degree of validity, the second - none.

 

None of us want to deal with the fallout of hurting others.

 

Getting a divorce is an honest way of breaking a promise. It's saying in effect (and usually not just in effect, but in actuality), "I/we made a mistake. I know that I promised to be with you till "death do us part", but unfortunately, our relationship is not working and I think we'd do better separately" or words to that effect. Breaking the promise is not the destroyer, the deception by a loved one is the destroyer. The daily dose of lying and sneaking and cheating. If you want more to go on as to whether or not you should continue in a marriage, choosing to cheat is NOT the way to get the "more to go on". It seems to me that you are looking more at a way of absolving yourself than anything.

 

I am not absolving. I am thinking about the nature of promises. Which is worse? To break the vow where you said you'd never seek love with another, or the vow where you said you'd never leave? And all that means.

 

Using kids as a reason to stay married does no one any favors, not even the kids.

 

It's possible people do this. I am more ethical.

However, in regard to the selfishness factor... allowing yourself to develop feelings for someone else when married is the real selfishness - after that has occurred, anything else is just decoration. If you find yourself wishing you hadn't married someone - then either get out of the marriage or get yourself into counseling to somehow reconcile your reality and your feelings, but do NOT start opening yourself up to another relationship to try to figure out if you should stay married or not. That option sucks at EVERY level.

 

Honestly? I think you are naive.

I had subconscious feelings for xMOM for months before it became conscious. Then more months before it became an EA. And the way this confused me still isn't over.

My H? you think I just thought oh he was pretty bad for me (which he was) but I'm in love with another so it's clear?

I did that, but it didn't work out so easy. If it was easy, infidelity wouldn't blinkin happen!

 

This is true because you had already proved yourself to be selfish by the infidelity. Leaving or not leaving does not thereafter define your selfishness or lack thereof. Sorry, but I don't buy this. It's one thing to not care whether or not you are "well thought of" on an anonymous board, it's a whole different kettle of fish in real life. You had an affair - cheated on your husband. You didn't tell him. You didn't want to experience the fallout. You can put any spin on that you'd like, but no matter what, it's still spin. As far as finding it "easier to love with being honest", frankly, there is no other way to love. If you love someone, you are honest with that person. If you are not honest, you do not truly love them, you love yourself more - much more.

 

It would be nice to love myself. Do you?

 

{snip}

 

The amount of mental energy that you appear to expend on your xMOM makes me very sad for you. I hope you can eventually learn to let go.

 

Was he a soulmate or something else? Letting go yeah. I love him - I love all my good friends and it never died with any yet.

 

It's good that you are trying to live a decent life. That's what all of us should attempt. When you say "believe in love" - what exactly does that mean to you?

 

That's a good question. I have asked a lot of people to help me understand in my dilemma. Love is a state of grace and I feel it for my kids. I felt it for xMOM. It never turns off. Believing in it is more frightening than I initially thought.

 

I hope what I've written doesn't come across as too harsh. It wasn't meant to be so, but it is a subject I have some fairly strong feelings about.

 

You weren't too harsh. I appreciated every word, and I wrote back in honesty.

[TaraMaiden]

I believe now, after rudimentary reading, that we may need a life plan.

 

Unfortunately, the way you respond (By answering posts in bold typeface WITHIN the

formatting) means we can't take your posts piecemeal and reciprocate.

 

In answer to these questions:

Have you ever tried D a man you have been with for 19 years? Whom you have young kids with?

 

Have you tried MC with someone you don't want to hurt, but who doesn't want you to leave?

I did try MC with a man I'd been with for over 23 years, and had 2 daughters with.

I did try it in spite of the fact he really didn't want me to leave, and I really saw no point in counselling, with him.

Why?

Because he wanted the counselling to be the catalyst that kept us together. He was of the opinion that Counselling is there to keep marriages going.

I knew otherwise.

Counselling is not a mechanism for perpetuating a relationship.

Counselling is a tool for being open, being on the same page, and discussing things in such a way as to be able to clarify your position, thoughts, feelings, opinions and desires in a safe place.

Counselling enables people to move on with their eyes open. Even if moving on means moving apart.

You didn't want counselling because it would have meant revealing aspects of yourself that you knew were selfish and dishonourable. You didn't want to be subjected to scrutiny and judgement, and felt that it would be better to go behind his back and forge ahead in this way, rather than clear it there and then.

 

I refused counselling, and I told him why.

And we divorced.

 

I left my H for my partner, not because of him.

I fell in love with my partner, and left my H.

But H knew why I was leaving.

There was no subterfuge, no hiding, no deceit. He absolutely knew I was going, and he absolutely knew why.

Everything was clear and out in the open, and there was no deceit.

 

Difficult?

Jeesh, yeah, you bet! Horrendous, at times.

Difficult, but not impossible.

And far, far better than the alternatives.

[wheelwright]

Unfortunately, the way you respond (By answering posts in bold typeface WITHIN the

formatting) means we can't take your posts piecemeal and reciprocate.

 

In answer to these questions:

 

I did try MC with a man I'd been with for over 23 years, and had 2 daughters with.

I did try it in spite of the fact he really didn't want me to leave, and I really saw no point in counselling, with him.

Why?

Because he wanted the counselling to be the catalyst that kept us together. He was of the opinion that Counselling is there to keep marriages going.

I knew otherwise.

Counselling is not a mechanism for perpetuating a relationship.

Counselling is a tool for being open, being on the same page, and discussing things in such a way as to be able to clarify your position, thoughts, feelings, opinions and desires in a safe place.

Counselling enables people to move on with their eyes open. Even if moving on means moving apart.

You didn't want counselling because it would have meant revealing aspects of yourself that you knew were selfish and dishonourable. You didn't want to be subjected to scrutiny and judgement, and felt that it would be better to go behind his back and forge ahead in this way, rather than clear it there and then.

 

I refused counselling, and I told him why.

And we divorced.

 

I left my H for my partner, not because of him.

I fell in love with my partner, and left my H.

But H knew why I was leaving.

There was no subterfuge, no hiding, no deceit. He absolutely knew I was going, and he absolutely knew why.

Everything was clear and out in the open, and there was no deceit.

 

Difficult?

Jeesh, yeah, you bet! Horrendous, at times.

Difficult, but not impossible.

And far, far better than the alternatives.

 

I agree about better than the alternatives.

 

I also think no subterfuge is best. I went along for sake of xMOM and through my own fears about hurting others.

 

I am glad I heard your story. It makes me realise where there was a shadow in my own.

 

Thank you.

[wheelwright]

You're speaking as if you have no control over your own body and impulses.

 

Well I'm not sure that's true. I felt more control and will about it than any other encounters.

 

It felt right to me.

 

That's why I did it. It is only retrospect that makes me question.

 

I have had a number of ONSs in my life - you can count them on one hand. None have been gone into in the way I went into A. They were more about lack of control. Although on one occasion it was sweet.

 

Where xMOM is concerned - I just chose to go with the feeling. I felt that was what I should do with it. I felt the lie of not doing it was worse than the lie of doing it.

[datura_noir]

Well I'm not sure that's true. I felt more control and will about it than any other encounters.

 

It felt right to me.

 

That's why I did it. It is only retrospect that makes me question.

 

I have had a number of ONSs in my life - you can count them on one hand. None have been gone into in the way I went into A. They were more about lack of control. Although on one occasion it was sweet.

 

Where xMOM is concerned - I just chose to go with the feeling. I felt that was what I should do with it. I felt the lie of not doing it was worse than the lie of doing it.

 

 

Honey, you sure are a hot mess of a woman. I'll bet the farm the xMM is thankful he is not dealing with your baggage.

 

Spend some time reading (books not online) stories of how women have totally let themselves be taken over by their feelings and emotions. And where it got them. Whether married, single & dating, or in an affair.

 

Then, stop thinking and analysing so much....go have fun!!! Get together with girlfriends and/or sisters and tap into the wonderful world of feminine perspective.

 

You are way too mired in LOFF and all of its twists and turns.....your sense of humor has been buried. You have become the stereotype that society holds you to. You have become bitter and mired in yourself to the point of narcissism. Time to let go.

 

Here's a virtual DOUBLE MARGARITA for you, WW, drink it in good health!! Please don't dwell so much, it's scary....

[wheelwright]

Honey, you sure are a hot mess of a woman. I'll bet the farm the xMM is thankful he is not dealing with your baggage.

 

Spend some time reading (books not online) stories of how women have totally let themselves be taken over by their feelings and emotions. And where it got them. Whether married, single & dating, or in an affair.

 

Then, stop thinking and analysing so much....go have fun!!! Get together with girlfriends and/or sisters and tap into the wonderful world of feminine perspective.

 

You are way too mired in LOFF and all of its twists and turns.....your sense of humor has been buried. You have become the stereotype that society holds you to. You have become bitter and mired in yourself to the point of narcissism. Time to let go.

 

Here's a virtual DOUBLE MARGARITA for you, WW, drink it in good health!! Please don't dwell so much, it's scary....

 

You're wrong about soh.

 

I quite like the hot mess of a woman epiphet. Sounds right to me.

 

Yeah, I take it seriously. When I'm not thinking about Bogart and Bacall, I'm laughing at myself for it.

 

"You have become bitter and mired in yourself to the point of narcissism"

 

Hey! Uncalled for flack monitor where are you?

 

I honestly think this is is the most cutting comment ever given on LS.

 

Go girl!

[wheelwright]

ps - I have fun - well a broken heart can't stop me dancing or liking people can it?

 

But thanks for reminding me to say that on LS. I'm happy about that.

 

Your post made me smile and led to another thread...

[xxoo]

Thirdly, the honesty factor. Now I do appreciate this point. I find honesty very important in my Rs of all kind. But I would also say that selfishness is witnessed just as much in someone who says to their partner 'I have developed feelings for someone else and I think maybe we should split up.'

 

Particularly if kids are involved.

 

My selfishness would have been evidenced anyway I behaved. In fact, I find it easier to love with being honest, and my reasons for not telling were to do with xMOM's situation, and the hurt immediate telling would have caused my H.

 

It really depends on what you plan to say and do.

 

It is selfish (and probably very foolish) to split up the marriage right away because of feelings for another person--particularly with kids.

 

It is NOT selfish to tell your spouse "I'm feeling distant from you. I'm struggling with feelings for another man. I desperately want to keep our marriage together, and feel closer to you. We need help."

 

That conversation can be a "wake up call" conversation that is a first step in rekindling the marital relationship. Or, it can be a conversation that eventually leads to the mutual realization that the marriage should end.

 

BUT--that conversation definitely "outs" the feelings for another, and probably require you to get off the fence before exploring what is on the other side. That is another reason it is unselfish.

 

This was not cowardice, though it may be for some in the same boat. (It should be clear from the honesty in my posts here that I am more interested in working things out and truth than in being well thought of).

 

Yes, I later caused him even more pain, but this is lack of wisdom/foresight rather than selfishness.

 

And perhaps that is where the true ethical problems involved in infidelity occur - lack of wisdom. Failure to exercise the virtue of wisdom. Folly.

 

If you are interested in truth first and foremost, I submit you are being dishonest with yourself. You are obviously a very intelligent woman. You are of a fully adult age (long out of adolescence). How is it that you lacked the wisdom to reason out something so obvious? Isn't it more likely that you had that wisdom, but ignored it?

[wheelwright]

It really depends on what you plan to say and do.

 

It is selfish (and probably very foolish) to split up the marriage right away because of feelings for another person--particularly with kids.

 

It is NOT selfish to tell your spouse "I'm feeling distant from you. I'm struggling with feelings for another man. I desperately want to keep our marriage together, and feel closer to you. We need help."

 

That conversation can be a "wake up call" conversation that is a first step in rekindling the marital relationship. Or, it can be a conversation that eventually leads to the mutual realization that the marriage should end.

 

BUT--that conversation definitely "outs" the feelings for another, and probably require you to get off the fence before exploring what is on the other side. That is another reason it is unselfish.

 

Oh and I was a stupid lovely stupid in love person who thought they knew.

 

If you are interested in truth first and foremost, I submit you are being dishonest with yourself. You are obviously a very intelligent woman. You are of a fully adult age (long out of adolescence). How is it that you lacked the wisdom to reason out something so obvious? Isn't it more likely that you had that wisdom, but ignored it?

 

It was simply that my xMOM was caught where he was and I wanted to give hime time. I regret that now.

 

I felt I wanted to move on with the least hurt possible. I did lack the wisdom You're right.

 

And the reason? I believed in love.

 

Oh and I was a stupid in love stupid person.

Edited January 22, 2011 by wheelwright

[silktricks]

 

I am not absolving. I am thinking about the nature of promises. Which is worse? To break the vow where you said you'd never seek love with another, or the vow where you said you'd never leave? And all that means.

You've already broken the first vow, and you've broken the vow of fidelity. If you'd be honest about breaking those vows, then maybe you wouldn't have any choice about the third - or maybe that is indeed where your problem lies. That you want to make sure that you are the one who is holding the cards.

 

Using kids as a reason to stay married does no one any favors, not even the kids.

 

It's possible people do this. I am more ethical.

More ethical? In what way?

 

However, in regard to the selfishness factor... allowing yourself to develop feelings for someone else when married is the real selfishness - after that has occurred, anything else is just decoration. If you find yourself wishing you hadn't married someone - then either get out of the marriage or get yourself into counseling to somehow reconcile your reality and your feelings, but do NOT start opening yourself up to another relationship to try to figure out if you should stay married or not. That option sucks at EVERY level.

 

Honestly? I think you are naive.

 

I had subconscious feelings for xMOM for months before it became conscious. Then more months before it became an EA. And the way this confused me still isn't over.

 

My H? you think I just thought oh he was pretty bad for me (which he was) but I'm in love with another so it's clear?

 

I did that, but it didn't work out so easy. If it was easy, infidelity wouldn't blinkin happen!

Sorry, baby, no I'm not naive. What I am is experienced and aware. I've been on both ends of the infidelity stick and know exactly how such things occur. You need to quit pretending that things were and/or are out of your hands. Whether or not your husband is bad for you or not is not the issue. Whether the xMOM is bad for you or good for you is equally not the issue. What is the issue is whether or not you are going to have an honest life or a dishonest one. In other words - are YOU bad for you?

 

I'd like to point out that I in no way implied that honesty is easy. It is not. It isn't easy to be honest with oneself, let alone others. But if you simply go with the idea that you have no control over subconscious feelings (or thoughts) then you'll end up being a victim of circumstances your entire life. Self-control takes work. So does honesty. You seem to be intent upon giving yourself an out.

 

You don't want to break a promise.

You don't want to hurt someone.

It's difficult to leave someone after 19 years when you have small children.

 

All of these things are undoubtedly true, but you are using them as excuses to not make a move. To not really live your life. You are an adult woman who is obviously not stupid. I'd strongly suggest that you grow up.

 

You promised fidelity. You broke that promise.

You promised love. You broke that promise.

You promised honesty. You broke that promise.

 

It doesn't seem to me that you are all that interested in not breaking promises. It merely seems that you are intent upon the appearance of not breaking a promise. You don't want to leave - because then everyone would know that you broke a promise.

 

It would be nice to love myself. Do you?

Yes, I do. Most people, when they are truly honest will admit that they love themselves, even though our society wants everyone to say they don't. If you don't love yourself, how can you love someone else?

 

Was he a soulmate or something else? Letting go yeah. I love him - I love all my good friends and it never died with any yet.

really? you've never "lost contact" with any old friends?

 

It's good that you are trying to live a decent life. That's what all of us should attempt. When you say "believe in love" - what exactly does that mean to you?

 

That's a good question. I have asked a lot of people to help me understand in my dilemma. Love is a state of grace and I feel it for my kids. I felt it for xMOM. It never turns off. Believing in it is more frightening than I initially thought.

When you say "love is a state of grace" what do you mean? Please think about this question and try to answer it with something deeper than a catch phrase, and not in comparison to love of your kids.