This phrase is suppose to make it all better

[dont-be-naive]

Oh has anyone mentioned the classic - "I love you but I'm not IN love with you..."..??

 

next words from BS should be, "why are you still in this house? the suitcase is in the basement in the storage room"

[bentnotbroken]

Yet when the betrayed spouse acts like anything other than a saint they are not allowed to be human.

 

 

So true.

[hopesndreams]

LOL, while funny, this rings true. I didn't cheat in my marriage even though I wasn't getting every one of my little needs met.

 

How true that is. While they are spending time and energy on their new love interest, covering up their deceptions and neglecting the faithful spouse, the BS is still supposed to meet all their needs. All take and no give with cheaters.

[hopesndreams]

Oh has anyone mentioned the classic - "I love you but I'm not IN love with you..."..??

 

There are lots of one liners that all BS hear. The most painful is the "I love you but I'm not IN love with you."

[Spark1111]

There are lots of one liners that all BS hear. The most painful is the "I love you but I'm not IN love with you."

 

This is the phrase that makes every counsellor groan...This says that the speaker has no clue as to what mature love is all about.

 

It says they believe love should always be the heady, romantic, butterflys-in-the-stomach, over the moon phase of early courtship.

 

It also means, if that is truly what they believe love is, they will go on to have several partners as the stage lasts about 1 to 2 years.

[ConflictedGuy27]

"I slipped and fell on his c*ck, I swear!!"

lmfao!

[Distant78]

"I was drunk when it happened!"

 

or

 

"It was only one kiss"

[dont-be-naive]

"I was drunk when it happened!"

 

or

 

"It was only one kiss"

 

to me this makes it worse. because drinking brings out the true person as far as I'm concerned. they wanted to do it, just didn't have the guts to do it while sober.

[JRoy]

". . . the whole thing was over in three weeks" & "I didn't know how much it would hurt you . . . " and the I hate the most . . . "It made me feel young", hell, she was only 26!

[andrew-bkk]

"OK. I admit it. I cheated. But we can still get back together again. Just give me a bit more time"

[whammy]

"I never meant to hurt you".

 

You didn't hurt just me, but another spouse, 4 young kids, along with other family and friends.

 

 

 

"It was like it was another person doing those things".

 

Well where is that person as I'd like to talk to them. Is this the same person that drove your vehicle to another state to have sex with him? It seems funny that person would drive hours away but I couldn't get you to walk across our living room to have sex with me.

 

 

 

"I'm a good, honest, caring person. I just made some bad choices. It doesn't define who I am".

 

???????

 

i hate that...your choices do define you. YOU ARE YOUR ACTIONS AND CHOICES! (and there are NO mistakes in relationships...only choices)

 

my buddys GF cheated on him and they were going through a rough time and he was rationalizing like "she didnt mean to hurt me, shes a great girl this isnt who she is"

 

im like "WHAT!? dude, she DID it! she walked up to the guy and put her vagina around his penis...she did it! ITS WHO SHE IS!

 

Personally I think cheating on someone is hurting them on purpose.

[whammy]

to me this makes it worse. because drinking brings out the true person as far as I'm concerned. they wanted to do it, just didn't have the guts to do it while sober.

 

thats true...when drinking people do what they really want to do. its true for me and everyone i know.

[wheelwright]

This has nothing to do with mob lynching, killing, or death penalty. Trying to compare cheating with outside issues is nothing but an attempt to downplay you did was wrong. You cheaters act like you guys aren't supposed to have consequences for your actions and us BSs are crazy if we judge you for willingly crossing that line over into the infidelity zone, not having remorse about it, and still daydream about the person you had an affair with at night, as your BS sleeps next to you in the bed, thinking you still love them with romantic feelings. Now that's crazy.

 

No it's spending time thinking about ethics.

 

I don't give a s*** about consequences unless they are real ones.

 

About truth and love.

 

I think about my Ap all the time. AND WHAT is there in ethics that makes me know what to do with that given I am M with kids?

 

I know I may be wrong. That's what scares me.

 

Give me a well thought out ethics for this?

 

I've been through Socrates to Kant to Nietszche to Mills to modern philosophers.

 

And to myself. I took none of this lightly.

[wheelwright]

No it's spending time thinking about ethics.

 

I don't give a s*** about consequences unless they are real ones.

 

About truth and love.

 

I think about my Ap all the time. AND WHAT is there in ethics that makes me know what to do with that given I am M with kids?

 

I know I may be wrong. That's what scares me.

 

Give me a well thought out ethics for this?

 

I've been through Socrates to Kant to Nietszche to Mills to modern philosophers.

 

And to myself. I took none of this lightly.

 

What I mean to say is, if you love, and gaslighting is not your intent, where is the moral bad?

[wheelwright]

LOL, while funny, this rings true. I didn't cheat in my marriage even though I wasn't getting every one of my little needs met.

 

I did.

 

Does that make me bad? I'd like your opion.

[bentnotbroken]

What I mean to say is, if you love, and gaslighting is not your intent, where is the moral bad?

 

 

 

:eek:WOW! Without the consent or knowledge of the BS is what makes this bad........ this one of the saddest questions I think I have ever seen on this or any other board. Love is not a band aid for doing something wrong that will hurt others.

[TaraMaiden]

I did.

 

Does that make me bad? I'd like your opion.

 

No, it makes you incredibly selfish. You may be forgetting that when you married your spouse, you made certain promises which count as a contractual agreement. It counts as a legal agreement, because it takes the law to dissolve the partnership.

if you married in church, even though it was a 'union in the eyes of God' neither he - nor the church - have any further interest in the matter. It's a matter of law, now.

 

So by cheating, you are effectively telling your spouse that you don't give a rat's behind about your contractual agreement, and the assurances you made. All you want is to do something that will make you happy, content and fulfilled. But of course, because you haven't actually had this discussion, you are simply lying by omission. heck, what the eye don't see, the heart don't grieve over, do it?

The one soul-destroying factor of cheating on your spouse, is the sense of betrayal and dishonesty they experience.

 

But it's obviously easier for cheats to conceal their actions or intentions, because they really would rather not face the consequences of their actions. Having to be accountable, publicly, scares the wits out of them. So, better to cover your own @ss by cheating secretly, than to bring it all out in the open.

 

Count for yourself where the Moral Bad is, in that little lot.

And if you still can't see it - divorce your spouse on the grounds of irreconcilable differences. And let them find somebody who can be truthful, honest selfless and open.

Oh, and who actually loves them, too.

Because you sure as hell don't.

Edited January 12, 2011 by TaraMaiden

[dont-be-naive]

I did.

 

Does that make me bad? I'd like your opion.

 

remember, you asked.

 

 

yes

[dont-be-naive]

What I mean to say is, if you love, and gaslighting is not your intent, where is the moral bad?

 

do you consider cheating a moral good?

[Distant78]

I don't give a s*** about consequences unless they are real ones.

 

This shows just how selfish cheaters are. You're refusing to see past your own selfishness to know you're hurting not only your family, but yourself.

 

I think about my Ap all the time.

 

Then let your husband go and stop wasting his time because it's obvious you don't even care about your marriage no more. Let him find someone else while you chase after another woman's husband.

Edited January 12, 2011 by Distant78

[dont-be-naive]

I think about my Ap all the time.

 

and this is the reason I won't stay with a cheater. Not sure if they will sit and think about the person they cheated with, or pine for them, but I'm not going to stick around knowing thats more than a possibility.

 

I know, you can't help your feelings, but that shouldn't be your spouses problem.

[wheelwright]

No, it makes you incredibly selfish. You may be forgetting that when you married your spouse, you made certain promises which count as a contractual agreement. It counts as a legal agreement, because it takes the law to dissolve the partnership.

if you married in church, even though it was a 'union in the eyes of God' neither he - nor the church - have any further interest in the matter. It's a matter of law, now.

 

So by cheating, you are effectively telling your spouse that you don't give a rat's behind about your contractual agreement, and the assurances you made. All you want is to do something that will make you happy, content and fulfilled. But of course, because you haven't actually had this discussion, you are simply lying by omission. heck, what the eye don't see, the heart don't grieve over, do it?

The one soul-destroying factor of cheating on your spouse, is the sense of betrayal and dishonesty they experience.

 

But it's obviously easier for cheats to conceal their actions or intentions, because they really would rather not face the consequences of their actions. Having to be accountable, publicly, scares the wits out of them. So, better to cover your own @ss by cheating secretly, than to bring it all out in the open.

 

Count for yourself where the Moral Bad is, in that little lot.

And if you still can't see it - divorce your spouse on the grounds of irreconcilable differences. And let them find somebody who can be truthful, honest selfless and open.

Oh, and who actually loves them, too.

Because you sure as hell don't.

 

Despite the rather condemnatory tone of this response, it does at least attempt to answer the question about ethics. Thanks, and I can see this is something you take seriously from other posts too.

 

However, I have some issues with the reply that are not all about whether or not my behaviour was selfish. On the whole it was. That is not to say I am a consistently selfish person who shows/has shown no selfless behaviour in regard to my H.

 

First is the breaking of a promise - on the surface it is bad to break trust with someone in such a serious way. However, if you believe the promise was wrong, then you have a painful moral dilemma - keep the wrong promise, or break it. (A clear eg would be if you promise to kill someone under some tenent that you later decide/realise was misguided - breaking this promise is wholly understandable, however much trust is abused in the betrayal).

 

Second, I think infidelity is often the result of someone who really doesn't know if the promise and commitment to M is right in their case. They are considering it may not be, but want more to go on that a few 'state of the M' talks and an unsettling gut instinct. In this case, I get the impression that the anti-infidelity people say get MC, and if that doesn't work, get divorced.

 

But getting D is also the breaking of a promise and commitment, isn't it?

 

Thirdly, the honesty factor. Now I do appreciate this point. I find honesty very important in my Rs of all kind. But I would also say that selfishness is witnessed just as much in someone who says to their partner 'I have developed feelings for someone else and I think maybe we should split up.'

 

Particularly if kids are involved.

 

My selfishness would have been evidenced anyway I behaved. In fact, I find it easier to love with being honest, and my reasons for not telling were to do with xMOM's situation, and the hurt immediate telling would have caused my H.

 

This was not cowardice, though it may be for some in the same boat. (It should be clear from the honesty in my posts here that I am more interested in working things out and truth than in being well thought of).

 

Yes, I later caused him even more pain, but this is lack of wisdom/foresight rather than selfishness.

 

And perhaps that is where the true ethical problems involved in infidelity occur - lack of wisdom. Failure to exercise the virtue of wisdom. Folly.

 

And for that I am guilty.

 

I would also say that I suffered from a lack of mental clarity, which is also a vice, or at least something that can lead to wrong action.

 

Oh and Bentnotbroken, when I asked where is the moral wrong, I am not asking it because I don't think there is any, I am asking it because I want to know exactly the answer.

 

I am trying to say ethics, including the ethics of infidelity (if that isn't an oxymoron!) are complex.

 

FTR, while I think about xMOM (and his M) too much for even my own liking, I also think about my H all the time, his character and love, our M, our history. And I talk to my H about all this stuff. My feelings for xMOM are by no means always positive. I need to come to a place of peace with all these feelings.

 

And within myself. To work out exactly what I believe is wrong and right. Because my old ethical system was rudimentary - try not to hurt people, be honest as much as tactfully possible, and believe in love. I now realise much more is required in living a decent life.

 

That is what I am trying to do.

[silktricks]

First is the breaking of a promise - on the surface it is bad to break trust with someone in such a serious way. However, if you believe the promise was wrong, then you have a painful moral dilemma - keep the wrong promise, or break it. (A clear eg would be if you promise to kill someone under some tenent that you later decide/realise was misguided - breaking this promise is wholly understandable, however much trust is abused in the betrayal).

Breaking a promise, if you truly believe you should have never made the promise in the first place is not necessarily a bad thing to do. However, breaking a promise in secret is not the same as simply breaking a promise, is it? It is adding a dimension of deception to the original promise maker which clearly takes it out of the "painful moral dilemma" realm and into the "I don't want to get caught breaking my promise and deal with the fallout" realm. The first has a certain degree of validity, the second - none.

 

Second, I think infidelity is often the result of someone who really doesn't know if the promise and commitment to M is right in their case. They are considering it may not be, but want more to go on that a few 'state of the M' talks and an unsettling gut instinct. In this case, I get the impression that the anti-infidelity people say get MC, and if that doesn't work, get divorced.

 

But getting D is also the breaking of a promise and commitment, isn't it?

Getting a divorce is an honest way of breaking a promise. It's saying in effect (and usually not just in effect, but in actuality), "I/we made a mistake. I know that I promised to be with you till "death do us part", but unfortunately, our relationship is not working and I think we'd do better separately" or words to that effect. Breaking the promise is not the destroyer, the deception by a loved one is the destroyer. The daily dose of lying and sneaking and cheating. If you want more to go on as to whether or not you should continue in a marriage, choosing to cheat is NOT the way to get the "more to go on". It seems to me that you are looking more at a way of absolving yourself than anything.

 

Thirdly, the honesty factor. Now I do appreciate this point. I find honesty very important in my Rs of all kind. But I would also say that selfishness is witnessed just as much in someone who says to their partner 'I have developed feelings for someone else and I think maybe we should split up.'

 

Particularly if kids are involved.

Using kids as a reason to stay married does no one any favors, not even the kids.

 

However, in regard to the selfishness factor... allowing yourself to develop feelings for someone else when married is the real selfishness - after that has occurred, anything else is just decoration. If you find yourself wishing you hadn't married someone - then either get out of the marriage or get yourself into counseling to somehow reconcile your reality and your feelings, but do NOT start opening yourself up to another relationship to try to figure out if you should stay married or not. That option sucks at EVERY level.

 

My selfishness would have been evidenced anyway I behaved.

This is true because you had already proved yourself to be selfish by the infidelity. Leaving or not leaving does not thereafter define your selfishness or lack thereof.

In fact, I find it easier to love with being honest, and my reasons for not telling were to do with xMOM's situation, and the hurt immediate telling would have caused my H.

 

This was not cowardice, though it may be for some in the same boat. (It should be clear from the honesty in my posts here that I am more interested in working things out and truth than in being well thought of).

Sorry, but I don't buy this. It's one thing to not care whether or not you are "well thought of" on an anonymous board, it's a whole different kettle of fish in real life. You had an affair - cheated on your husband. You didn't tell him. You didn't want to experience the fallout. You can put any spin on that you'd like, but no matter what, it's still spin. As far as finding it "easier to love with being honest", frankly, there is no other way to love. If you love someone, you are honest with that person. If you are not honest, you do not truly love them, you love yourself more - much more.

 

{snip}

 

FTR, while I think about xMOM (and his M) too much for even my own liking, I also think about my H all the time, his character and love, our M, our history. And I talk to my H about all this stuff. My feelings for xMOM are by no means always positive. I need to come to a place of peace with all these feelings.

 

And within myself. To work out exactly what I believe is wrong and right. Because my old ethical system was rudimentary - try not to hurt people, be honest as much as tactfully possible, and believe in love. I now realise much more is required in living a decent life.

 

That is what I am trying to do.

The amount of mental energy that you appear to expend on your xMOM makes me very sad for you. I hope you can eventually learn to let go.

 

It's good that you are trying to live a decent life. That's what all of us should attempt. When you say "believe in love" - what exactly does that mean to you?

 

I hope what I've written doesn't come across as too harsh. It wasn't meant to be so, but it is a subject I have some fairly strong feelings about.

[dreamingoftigers]

"I can't be happy and monogamous."

 

There is a simple way to avoid having the two collide then....don't get married to me! I mean hey, I can't be happy in a relationship with someone unmonogamous (new word). Do I not get a say in my own life/sex life?

 

"I married you by mistake"

 

Oops! You didn't notice that it wasn't 10 other women at the end of that aisle?

 

"I love you so much that I didn't want to hurt you or lose you."

 

Me or any of them, right? I guess when they take away the Chicken Fried Rice from the buffet, you must be about equally as heartbroken.

 

If you didn't want to hurt me, you shouldn't have done the most hurtful thing in a relationship.

 

"I guess I got bored."

 

Take up skydiving. You were boring too, and terrible in bed, didn't give me much to work with. Still I didn't cheat.

 

"If you are hurt be this, this is something you have to deal with, I can't fix it for you."

 

Way to take responsibility.

[TaraMaiden]

Despite the rather condemnatory tone of this response, it does at least attempt to answer the question about ethics. Thanks, and I can see this is something you take seriously from other posts too.

 

However, I have some issues with the reply that are not all about whether or not my behaviour was selfish. On the whole it was. That is not to say I am a consistently selfish person who shows/has shown no selfless behaviour in regard to my H.

We're all selfish, a lot of the time. Unfortunately, I am of the opinion that Western Society in general has swung to a dimension of "What's in it for me-ness", a condition of thinking that very often we want things to go our way because, why the hell shouldn't they, we deserve it.... don't we?"

 

First is the breaking of a promise - on the surface it is bad to break trust with someone in such a serious way. However, if you believe the promise was wrong, then you have a painful moral dilemma - keep the wrong promise, or break it. (A clear eg would be if you promise to kill someone under some tenent that you later decide/realise was misguided - breaking this promise is wholly understandable, however much trust is abused in the betrayal).

This is such an odd argument as to be obtuse. I truly don't know anybody who's ever been in the position of committing such a heinous crime. So really, the argument is a distraction form the real options available to you.

Your options were far less morally difficult to calculate: "Do I keep my promise, break it and renege on it - or do I finally admit I'm unable to keep it any longer, and request being released from the contract?"

You chose the middle option, when you had the third one at your fingertips. It;s just that the middle one was easier to go for.

 

Second, I think infidelity is often the result of someone who really doesn't know if the promise and commitment to M is right in their case.

Not so. Infidelity is the result of someone who has decided they don't want to adhere to the promise and commitment to M.

They have ceased worrying whether it was right. They have decided it was wrong.

That's why the choice of being unfaithful was so utterly tempting as to be a compelling convincing option.

 

They are considering it may not be,

No they're not. The moment that having an affir is a certainty, they have taken theuir eye completely off the Marital ball. It's a done deal. having the affair is easier than facing the Music.

but want more to go on that a few 'state of the M' talks and an unsettling gut instinct.

So you're saying that they actually want to have sex with someone else, before deciding whether they're happy to stay married, or reinvest energy in their marriage...? They want to play the field before deciding whether they want to make the effort to address their marital issues?

Don't you think by then, it's too late for that?

 

In this case, I get the impression that the anti-infidelity people say get MC, and if that doesn't work, get divorced.

And where exactly is the flaw in that plan?

Is it because you never wanted to do the MC part?

in that case, go straight for the D!!

 

But getting D is also the breaking of a promise and commitment, isn't it?

Yes, but at least it's an open and honest admittance, not a breakdown and deception by the back door.

It's called facing up to facts and stepping up to the plate. Biting the bullet and dealing with it head on.

 

 

Thirdly, the honesty factor. Now I do appreciate this point. I find honesty very important in my Rs of all kind. But I would also say that selfishness is witnessed just as much in someone who says to their partner 'I have developed feelings for someone else and I think maybe we should split up.'

You're missing the point. Morally, it's deceptive, and hurtful to have an affair behind their back. This is where the selfishness really comes to the fore. There's nothing selfish about being open, honest and candid with someone about your feelings. yes it hurts, but it hurts less than being lied to.

 

 

My selfishness would have been evidenced anyway I behaved. In fact, I find it easier to love with being honest, and my reasons for not telling were to do with xMOM's situation, and the hurt immediate telling would have caused my H.

I'm sorry, I just see this as trying to justify your own actions in lying to your H and screwing someone behind his back, simply to establish justification of you lying and cheating. You're under the microscope. And deceit doesn't wash.

 

This was not cowardice, though it may be for some in the same boat. (It should be clear from the honesty in my posts here that I am more interested in working things out and truth than in being well thought of).

You have nothing to work out with us. You're trying to convince us that having an affair behind your husband's back was a better option that that of being honest, upfront and dealing with your issues on the same page. We don't buy it.

 

Yes, I later caused him even more pain, but this is lack of wisdom/foresight rather than selfishness.

I don't buy it.

There is nothing "wise" about the choice between having an affair, and not having an affair. it's a clear-cut decision, and you chose to satisfy your own needs, desires and preferences, rather than considering the pain your H would feel upon discovering another man was sticking his dick between your legs.

Sorry to be so blunt, but this is what it comes down to.

"Honesty and decency and dignity with my H, or having a ball in the sack with my lover>"

 

That's all your choice came down to. And you chose the latter. because you wanted to.

I doubt very much that the moral dilemma of selfishness or honesty towards your husband even crossed your mind while you were shagging your lover.

 

And perhaps that is where the true ethical problems involved in infidelity occur - lack of wisdom. Failure to exercise the virtue of wisdom. Folly.

There is no question of wisdom or lack of it, in sex with a third party.

It's a no-brainer. What wisdom do you need?

Wisdom consists of understanding while you make your vows that this means you.

 

 

I would also say that I suffered from a lack of mental clarity, which is also a vice, or at least something that can lead to wrong action.

This is just a way of saying "I couldn't help it, it just happened. I wasn't thinking straight."

Actually, you were. You knew damned well when you decided to have sex with your lover that you were still married. so I'm afraid all this talk of wisdom and lack of mental clarity, is hogwash.

lack of mental clarity doesn't include amnesia.

 

Oh and Bentnotbroken, when I asked where is the moral wrong, I am not asking it because I don't think there is any, I am asking it because I want to know exactly the answer.

 

I am trying to say ethics, including the ethics of infidelity (if that isn't an oxymoron!) are complex.

No, they're extremely simple.

You don't do it.

Can't be any simpler than that.

 

FTR, while I think about xMOM (and his M) too much for even my own liking, I also think about my H all the time, his character and love, our M, our history. And I talk to my H about all this stuff. My feelings for xMOM are by no means always positive. I need to come to a place of peace with all these feelings.

You have to let go, let it be and move on. the more you think you have to 'come to a place of peace with all these feelings" - the further away you move from it.

The more you focus on analysis, the more you keep yourself rooted in that state.

 

 

And within myself. To work out exactly what I believe is wrong and right. Because my old ethical system was rudimentary - try not to hurt people, be honest as much as tactfully possible, and believe in love.

 

There's nothing wrong at all with that rudimentary ethical system. It's simple,. forthright and practical. Unfortunately, you chose to ignore all three.

 

I now realise much more is required in living a decent life.

.

 

No, I think it forms the bass of a very good starting point.

be kind, hurt no-one, help others and say thank you.

 

What else do you believe you have to do?