NoIDidn't Posted December 20, 2010 Posted December 20, 2010 This weekend, I learned that a relative has been having an affair with a MM for the past two years. In fact, he's the father of her youngest child. I wasn't too surprised about this fact. I spoke with her and she lamented about how she can't find anyone to talk to about it. She told me what her friends said to her. The usual "he'll never leave", "he's just using you", "blah blah blah". And she asked me for advice. I asked her to follow the advice she'd give a friend in the same situation. So what was her advice for a friend? "Don't do it, it will hurt later in ways you can't imagine" "Married men never leave" "He'll use you until you are all used up" And so on. This from an OW. My relative the OW. There is often a lot of complaining about what is told to many in As in this forum. But the truth is, when a potential OW comes here, most of the resident OWs don't encourage her to start an affair - they tell her to RUN or at the least be honest with herself about what she wants and guard her heart. I agree that some posters are most hyperbolic in their discouraging any OP (mostly OW), but that can be ignored (eat the meat, not the bones). Yet, when other posters say this, they are accused of all sorts of negative things. I can't understand this. My relative would discourage another OW from starting or continuing an affair. Most OPs would discourage potential OPs from starting or continuing an affair (that's hurting them). But when those who don't identify as OPs do the same, its considered an insult or worst. Why is this? Its the same advice.
Hazyhead Posted December 20, 2010 Posted December 20, 2010 It's an interesting question, NiD, and even though I have done the same, I still can't tell you why. I suppose a lot would say that there's a difference between what the heart feels and the head says... I don't know. This board is made up of people who have walked that path and still gave that advice. What a pointless post this is! I just thought it was an interesting question.
OWoman Posted December 20, 2010 Posted December 20, 2010 There is often a lot of complaining about what is told to many in As in this forum. But the truth is, when a potential OW comes here, most of the resident OWs don't encourage her to start an affair - they tell her to RUN or at the least be honest with herself about what she wants and guard her heart. I agree that some posters are most hyperbolic in their discouraging any OP (mostly OW), but that can be ignored (eat the meat, not the bones). Yet, when other posters say this, they are accused of all sorts of negative things. I can't understand this. My relative would discourage another OW from starting or continuing an affair. Most OPs would discourage potential OPs from starting or continuing an affair (that's hurting them). But when those who don't identify as OPs do the same, its considered an insult or worst. Why is this? Its the same advice. I think the bit I bolded is the difference - many, or even most, of the non-OW / OM posters here don't only advise against As that are causing pain to the OP, they advice (or worse) against any A at all. Yes, some fOWs do the same, especially ROWs, and that kind of OSFA "cookie cutter" advice normally gets the same kind of response whether it comes from a fBS or a ROW or a disinterested bystander. Those posters - fOW / fOMs, current OW / OMs, fBSs and whoever else, that bother to read the situation for what it is as presented (not how they project it to be) and post advice based on that, whether to "run, run, run" or to "shield your heart" or whatever else, are not (usually) considered insulting because the OP feels at least that they have been listened to and heard by the person responding - that the response is to them, not just to what they represent to the poster. Of course, there is also a lot of defensiveness on the part of the OP, whether a noob or a battle-scarred LS veteran, because of the attacks (on themselves, or their general position) that they may field IRL and certainly do have to field here, and so even well-meant advice can be interpreted as an attack on one's integrity or character, because of the inadequacy of the medium to convey tone and intent.
jthorne Posted December 20, 2010 Posted December 20, 2010 (edited) Why is this? Its the same advice.It seems that some have missed the point of your thread. To answer your question, there is no difference. It has nothing to do with morality or being a fBS/ROW. It has to do with common sense and common decency. A's hurt people. Why would anyone advise another to hurt themselves or someone else? Edited December 20, 2010 by jthorne
OWoman Posted December 20, 2010 Posted December 20, 2010 It seems that some have missed the point of your thread, based upon their agenda. Projection, much? THe question was not, "is this the same advice" (which is the question you answered - missing the point because of your agenda, perhaps? The question was, "why is this?"
Snowflower Posted December 20, 2010 Posted December 20, 2010 Projection, much? THe question was not, "is this the same advice" (which is the question you answered - missing the point because of your agenda, perhaps? The question was, "why is this?" I think OW's response did answer the original question. NID, did your relative listen to any advice that you gave?
Author NoIDidn't Posted December 21, 2010 Author Posted December 21, 2010 I think OW's response did answer the original question. NID, did your relative listen to any advice that you gave? I didn't give her any advice. I just listened and asked her what she would tell someone else in her position. It was really her own advice. I doubt she will take her own advice either. They have a child together now. A child that is going to turn two next year. In all honesty, I really don't have any advice for her other than not to talk about it too much to everyone. I'm sure she is going to do what she wants to do. But telling too many people is going to create a bad situation for everyone involved - especially her older children (of which she has more than five), and most of them are older than 12 (the age where kids start to know what is going on and will talk about it too). Sorry. I really had no advice for her. If I have learned anything here, and anything about even myself, its that we all do what we want to do. We'd already planned it regardless of the advice offered. We are generally just checking to see if we are going to get validation for our choice, IMO.
Author NoIDidn't Posted December 21, 2010 Author Posted December 21, 2010 I think the bit I bolded is the difference - many, or even most, of the non-OW / OM posters here don't only advise against As that are causing pain to the OP, they advice (or worse) against any A at all. Yes, some fOWs do the same, especially ROWs, and that kind of OSFA "cookie cutter" advice normally gets the same kind of response whether it comes from a fBS or a ROW or a disinterested bystander. Those posters - fOW / fOMs, current OW / OMs, fBSs and whoever else, that bother to read the situation for what it is as presented (not how they project it to be) and post advice based on that, whether to "run, run, run" or to "shield your heart" or whatever else, are not (usually) considered insulting because the OP feels at least that they have been listened to and heard by the person responding - that the response is to them, not just to what they represent to the poster. Of course, there is also a lot of defensiveness on the part of the OP, whether a noob or a battle-scarred LS veteran, because of the attacks (on themselves, or their general position) that they may field IRL and certainly do have to field here, and so even well-meant advice can be interpreted as an attack on one's integrity or character, because of the inadequacy of the medium to convey tone and intent. I agree with most of this. The "that's hurting them" is the main point to consider when giving advice IMO as well. I may not agree with affairs, or the choice to get participate in them, but once a person is already in one its best to allow the natural consequences to follow - be that ending it because it does start to hurt them, ending it because the MP no longer wants to live a double-life, staying until a divorce is final and it ends because it is no longer an affair, and so on. I'm glad my relative wasn't defensive though. I guess that's because she knows me and knows that I am family no matter what.
jwi71 Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 This weekend, I learned that a relative has been having an affair with a MM for the past two years. In fact, he's the father of her youngest child. I wasn't too surprised about this fact. I spoke with her and she lamented about how she can't find anyone to talk to about it. She told me what her friends said to her. The usual "he'll never leave", "he's just using you", "blah blah blah". And she asked me for advice. I asked her to follow the advice she'd give a friend in the same situation. So what was her advice for a friend? "Don't do it, it will hurt later in ways you can't imagine" "Married men never leave" "He'll use you until you are all used up" And so on. This from an OW. My relative the OW. There is often a lot of complaining about what is told to many in As in this forum. But the truth is, when a potential OW comes here, most of the resident OWs don't encourage her to start an affair - they tell her to RUN or at the least be honest with herself about what she wants and guard her heart. I agree that some posters are most hyperbolic in their discouraging any OP (mostly OW), but that can be ignored (eat the meat, not the bones). Yet, when other posters say this, they are accused of all sorts of negative things. I can't understand this. My relative would discourage another OW from starting or continuing an affair. Most OPs would discourage potential OPs from starting or continuing an affair (that's hurting them). But when those who don't identify as OPs do the same, its considered an insult or worst. Why is this? Its the same advice. I think the issue is a very simple one - the BS and the OW are enemies somehow. And is a situation created by the MM (mostly) and simple human competition. The MM paints each to the other as "the problem" and creates an adversarial atmosphere. One that persists even on this board amongst strangers who wouldn't recognize one another in an elevator. So when one enemy posts to another - you get the results you point out even if the advice is spot on accurate. That persons "role" colors the advice - adding validity. Or denigrating it based on posters "role" and perception. And part of it is projection and defensiveness. For me, its simply part of the nature of this board and the topic in general. The cure is also simple...drop the labels and have each treat the others as HUMAN, less BS or WS or whatever.
Spark1111 Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 Well, my whole point in coming here was to learn the mindset of an OW/OM in an attempt to understand my own situation. And the pain on this board boggled my mind, opened up my eyes and really allowed the understanding and the healing to begin. fBS here...... So while we may agree to disagree on certain aspects of the morality of an affair, or the choosing of an affair, I still learned a lot from those who post here. Then, my assistant at work got involved with a MM, and I LIVED with her rollercoaster every day. It was heartbreaking. So I agree....not all, in fact few, are like me: open-minded enough to embrace all sides of the triangle, or at least to listen and not dismiss it. In fact, I am frequently amazed by the posters who choose to ignore me simply because I am a fBS. I do understand giving more credence to someone who has walked a mile in your shoes, but the point I always try to hammer home is we have more in common than not: We both loved the same man/woman. We were both devastated in the aftermath of our respective DDAYs. We both suffered through the pain of betrayal and loss. Why not listen to each other's viewpoints?
Spark1111 Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 I think the issue is a very simple one - the BS and the OW are enemies somehow. And is a situation created by the MM (mostly) and simple human competition. The MM paints each to the other as "the problem" and creates an adversarial atmosphere. One that persists even on this board amongst strangers who wouldn't recognize one another in an elevator. So when one enemy posts to another - you get the results you point out even if the advice is spot on accurate. That persons "role" colors the advice - adding validity. Or denigrating it based on posters "role" and perception. And part of it is projection and defensiveness. For me, its simply part of the nature of this board and the topic in general. The cure is also simple...drop the labels and have each treat the others as HUMAN, less BS or WS or whatever. jwi, Great Post! The dynamics of the affair do foster that at least two of the three camps in the triangle dislike each other. It wouldn't be a secret affair otherwise, now would it? It would be a relationship. So while that is a necessary ingredient to having and maintaining an affair, it certainly behooves no one to continue that mindset if they are seeking advice? To heal? To project? To battle or grow defensive? Like I have always said, I have no problem with harsh opinions that differ from my own. That is what advice will always be, right? You ask 10 people, you will get 10 differing perspectives, and I'm okay with it. I will take what I need and leave the rest. But is I ONLY want to be agreed with, I will tell my employees, or even better, my dog.
Author NoIDidn't Posted December 22, 2010 Author Posted December 22, 2010 I think the issue is a very simple one - the BS and the OW are enemies somehow. And is a situation created by the MM (mostly) and simple human competition. The MM paints each to the other as "the problem" and creates an adversarial atmosphere. One that persists even on this board amongst strangers who wouldn't recognize one another in an elevator. So when one enemy posts to another - you get the results you point out even if the advice is spot on accurate. That persons "role" colors the advice - adding validity. Or denigrating it based on posters "role" and perception. And part of it is projection and defensiveness. For me, its simply part of the nature of this board and the topic in general. The cure is also simple...drop the labels and have each treat the others as HUMAN, less BS or WS or whatever. Jwi I do get this on the forum because of the ridiculously enforced labels, but it happens even in person. In my personal life, many people don't know I've been betrayed, but they do know that I am married. And just giving my married lady opinion is met with resistance often by the unmarried - for no real reason other than the fact that they seem to have forgotten that before I was "married lady", I, too, was single like them. My relative doesn't even know of what happened five years ago, she lives in another state. With her I didn't get a defensive reaction of any sort because I didn't advise her to do anything other than think what she would say to someone else. There is something to the projection theory. And it is bandied about here quite a bit. I'm of the mindset that the first person to claim that someone is doing it, is likely the person doing it. Because pointing that out to someone usually puts them on the defensive no matter how sincere you may have been in suggesting they consider their responses as projection not reality. But I think you are right. Its the subject that creates the conundrum. Affairs are a conundrum all on their own. They are the wrong thing to do in all cases, IMO. But once you start one, you can't take it back - the slippery slope immediately becomes and out of control ride that jumping off of is like jumping out of a moving car. You get out, but not without bumps and bruises.
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