What is a 'Lady'? What are Her Jobs?

[Els]

Anyone else feel that reading musemaj's posts is like watching someone bash himself with a rock over and over for months just because some people tell him that he should, all the while complaining about how hard the rock is?

[GooseChaser]

Everything is simple when your primary focus/motivation isn't stereotyping every person in the world into two categories based on their genitals.

Well, categorizing everyone into one of two categories IS a way of simplification too. I agree, it's important to pay attention to shades of gray in things.

[Els]

Anyhow, there ARE couples in the world in which the woman does what you mention, OP. However, the man typically:

 

- Provides financially for the family single-handedly.

- Does not get sex before marriage.

- Pays the girl's father a handsome dowry in order to marry her.

- Will be judged by the girl's family based on his financial status before being able to court her. No nookie for poor college kids like yourself.

- Does not get any of the traits you mentioned in a 'lady' before marrying her.

 

Just pulling out chairs and paying for dates doesn't cut it in such cases, I'm afraid.

[january2010]

I don't agree with the OP's definition of a lady. Nonetheless, all power to him, if he finds a woman who ticks all those boxes and he treats her in a gentlemanly manner (by his definition) and they're both happy.

 

I'm happy to live with my definitions of a "lady" and a "gentleman" in terms of respect, manners and grooming.

[Yer_Blues]

Well, categorizing everyone into one of two categories IS a way of simplification too. I agree, it's important to pay attention to shades of gray in things.

Yeah, but I see it as useless oversimplification rather than being an effective model you can use or learn anything from.

 

I see nothing but gray. The reason we can't make models for gender roles and relationships etc. is because such things are horribly complex and all the variables are unable to be recognized or controlled in the slightest.

 

If we can't predict the weather all that effectively within a few days due to complexity of the system, I fail to see how anyone is going to solve how individuals should handle roles in a relationship by looking at one variable. People are the most complex and unpredictable thing I've come across.

[MJ2]

So, what is your question again?

[sally4sara]

What Im saying is that today's common gentlemanly behaviors are not behaviors that men make up for themselves. They are behaviors that society set up for them.

So Im wondering what are the equivalent societal expectations on women today? It seems like nothing to me.

 

Whom is society comprised of if not men and women? Its easy to pin it on "society" and wash your hands of it, but you are both a man and society. I am both a woman and society. You can't blame society without blaming yourself too. And that is how people go about making up their own definition of what it is to be a gentleman or a lady.

[sweetjasmine]

Its so nice to be a woman in America. Im jealous.

 

Get a sex change.

 

Problem solved.

 

I like my men to be ladies because I enjoy being a gentleman.

 

Anyone else feel that reading musemaj's posts is like watching someone bash himself with a rock over and over for months just because some people tell him that he should, all the while complaining about how hard the rock is?

 

That would explain the apparently progressing brain damage.

[denise_xo]

I wonder if women actually hold themselves up to a certain behavioral standard or they just expect others but not themselves?

 

Yep. I place expectations on everyone except myself. I just can't help it, it's the female gene

 

If you're going to troll, why not be a bit creative and do something less predictable? Jean Luc Sisko's threads about 'normal knowledge' at least has something unconventional about them.

[Yer_Blues]

if you're going to troll, why not be a bit creative and do something less predictable? Jean luc sisko's threads about 'normal knowledge' at least has something unconventional about them.

who are you to stop him!?

[Kamille]

-Opening the door for the master to get in

-Pulling the chair for the master to sit on

-Giving up the seat so the master can sit down

-Carrying heavy objects for the master

-Laboring hard every day to give food, shelter, and money for the master

-Paying for the master on dates so the master can enjoy free meals and entertainment

-Letting the master get on the life boat first while the ship is sinking

-Protecting the master from criminals

-Walking on the dangerous side of the sidewalk so the master wont get hit by a car

 

:laugh:

 

Wow. What planet do you live on? Where on earth today is any of this true?

 

1) Only men labor to bring home the bacon

2) You find yourself on a sinking ship or in burning building so very often that you think the anxiety caused by letting women and children reach secure grounds first compares to the burden of childbearing.

3) You live in such a high risk neighborhood that you find yourself protecting women from criminals on a regular basis (so that you think it's equivalent to raising children).

4) You live in a city so badly thought out that cars regularly rampage onto the sidewalk and hit pedestrians (so that you think walking on the outside of the sidewalk is a huge burden).

 

Not to mention, the master and servant analogy is completely misguided! Whoever heard of servants providing money to masters or servants going on date with masters?

 

Either that's a whole bag of chips you have on your shoulders, or you're an amazing comedian. Thanks for the laugh.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Kamille

[aerogurl87]

And a woman is supposed to obey and serve the man who provides for her, know how to cook, know how to clean and know how to take care of kids. A woman who does not have these characteristics have issues.

 

You agree, yes?

 

Umm no, I don't agree. My boyfriend and I are probably going to be moving in together next month and although I will cook and clean, I will not "obey and serve him" because I'm not a servant. Also because of the nature of our relationship, it wouldn't make sense, but I'm not going to take this thread off topic anymore. Yes I believe if a man is the sole provider for the family and the wife isn't working, she should cook and clean because she has to contribute to the family in some other way other than monetarily. But in a relationship both partners are supposed to be equal, giving their share amount to making the relationship thrive and being there for each other. Even back in the olden days, when women were supposed to be quiet and subservient, they gave their opinion to their husbands when they needed guidance or advice. It's not a new concept.

[zengirl]

If your point is about partnerships, really, partnerships are much less standard today and their roles and contributions should be defined by the people in them. Maybe the woman works and the man takes care of the baby. I've seen that. I've seen both parties work. I've seen stay-at-home Moms. I've seen every which way, and the important thing is that the couple communicates and that each person feels appreciated for their individual contributions as well as feels like their partner is contributing as well.

 

A gentleman never asks and a lady never tells. But, really, this is silly. Your view of a "lady" would not be the general, traditional view of what that word means. Most people use "lady" similar to "gentleman" -- using good grooming, perhaps a bit highfalutin or prissy/stuck up about it in some contexts (depending on whether being ladylike/gentlemanly is regarded as appropriate by the parties discussing it). A lady is well-groomed, as a is a gentleman. A lady is well-mannered, polite, and thoughtful, as is a gentleman. A lady is modest and chaste, as is a gentleman. And so on and so on.

 

Today women in general have clear cut expectations of what a gentleman should do and these expectations are pretty much identical to the gentlemanly behaviors expected of men in the 18th century.

 

Really? Do we expect men to arrange chaperones to take us about in their carriages? To say that men are held to similar standards of the 18th century is quite strange. Actually, men and women face a society that is much more individual now, where expectations are an ever-moving target, as what one woman prefers wouldn't be the preference of all. In the 18th century, this process was much more cut-and-dry.

 

Personally, these are the traits of a lady for me:

-Keep her voice down

-Be subservient toward her man

-Dont talk back to men

-Know how to clean

-Know how to cook

-Know how to take care of children

-Dress modestly

-Maintain her appearance

 

That sounds like a pet to me, not a partner. But good luck to you.

 

It seems to me, these days women think that they are ladies just by sitting pretty and doing nothing.

 

Actually, that's pretty much what true ladies did back in the day -- ladies were rich, generally, and had servants to do most of the things for them, and were generally expected not to engage in any arduous activity. Ladies were often not even permitted to dress themselves. A lady in the kitchen? In many old-time societies, that would've been scandalous! So, you're mixing your terms a bit.

 

This is the description of what you would expect from a nanny/housekeeper, not a partner.

 

I would describe both a gentleman and a lady the same way, someone who is thoughtful, respectful, considerate, and gracious.

 

You're hung up on the door opening thing, but there is a middle ground where you hold the door for the person behind you regardless of gender.

 

I don't know why you care about this if you wouldn't consider yourself a gentleman, it just seems like trolling.

 

I agree with that girl. To me, being a lady/gentleman in a good way -- a modern way -- would just be showing consideration for other people and being polite in general society.

 

I always hold the door open for elderly people or families with children that are behind me -- even if they're a ways behind me. I also always hold it out for the person directly behind me to grab, regardless of gender. If someone is struggling, and I am physically capable of helping them (i.e. I'm no help if they're struggling with a refrigerator or something, because I'm not that strong), I do. This has nothing to do with gender. It's just common courtesy.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Personally, these are the traits of a lady for me:

-Keep her voice down

-Be subservient toward her man

-Dont talk back to men

-Know how to clean

-Know how to cook

-Know how to take care of children

-Dress modestly

-Maintain her appearance

 

I get what you are trying to say. That the women around you ask for a level of behavior that they are not willing to reciprocate. Further more that they feel it's their God given right to demand and deny. I get that.

 

Your definition of a lady is not good. Maybe you are just trying to stir the pot, but seriously... why would you want a woman who actually acted like that?

 

Most men want a woman who will respect him... not get up in his face yelling like ghetto trash when they fight. A woman that wont fight him when he wants to lead. We want a woman who isn't nagging or nitpicking, or constantly controlling. That isn't the same as subservient.

 

 

Tasks like cooking, cleaning, and child care are more reserved for wives. Yes, a woman should know how to do them, but she won't be performing them regularly for a man before marriage. She might cook for him occasionally, though. If the man had a child, she would probably also enjoy spending time with him or her.

Also, I wouldn't say that women should be "subservient" as much as willing to flatter him and make him feel manly. Other jobs of a lady include being respectful, expecting respect from others, being good company, and behaving well, with little drama.

 

Goose... I have to say you are probably one of the nicest posters on LS! I really enjoy reading your perspective.

 

u kind of made me laugh out loud... so lets see, r ya talking about lady-like ish stuff, or domesticated future wifes ;)sum Qualites that make a woman a lady:

grace

dresses well

keeps it classy

intelligent

sense of humor

speaks proper

no profanty

kind hearted

not a gossiper

a lot of charisma

helps others,

understanding

warm natured

well groomed at all times

never raises her voice

fun fearless and fabulous

 

This list is a much better start. Although I think the social definition of a lady is kind of nebulous.

 

In my experience women who exhibit strong ladylike characteristics are often disrespected and torn down by other women. The exception of women who are older...

[Yer_Blues]

I get what you are trying to say. That the women around you ask for a level of behavior that they are not willing to reciprocate. Further more that they feel it's their God given right to demand and deny. I get that.

 

Your definition of a lady is not good. Maybe you are just trying to stir the pot, but seriously... why would you want a woman who actually acted like that?

 

Most men want a woman who will respect him... not get up in his face yelling like ghetto trash when they fight. A woman that wont fight him when he wants to lead. We want a woman who isn't nagging or nitpicking, or constantly controlling. That isn't the same as subservient.

Happy you separated yourself from this a bit. You always seem a lot more logical in your hatred of females than the OP , and I definitely have experienced this attitude as YOU describe it as common. I think it depends a lot on how women are brought up and their male and female influences. If women really think they are the more noble, enlightened, and intelligent sex, this arrogance becomes way more obvious than they realize. And it IS entirely unfounded.

[sb129]

Except today women arent even expected to know how to cook anymore but a man is still not a man unless he can bring food home.

 

Where do you get this rubbish from? NOBODY is expected to know how to cook, because instead of bringing home a bloody carcass that requires butchering and cooking, or grinding up their own wheat to handmake bread people can go to the supermarket and buy food that is already made.....

 

I'm sure you have one in your area.

 

Everything is simple when your primary focus/motivation isn't stereotyping every person in the world into two categories based on their genitals.

 

You forgot one..

 

Anyone else feel that reading musemaj's posts is like watching someone bash himself with a rock over and over for months just because some people tell him that he should, all the while complaining about how hard the rock is?

 

Ouch! oo I like that. Ouch! mmm..

[musemaj11]

Where do you get this rubbish from? NOBODY is expected to know how to cook, because instead of bringing home a bloody carcass that requires butchering and cooking, or grinding up their own wheat to handmake bread people can go to the supermarket and buy food that is already made.....

Exactly, all the traditional qualities that women were expected to have are no longer expected due to technological advancement or societal change.

 

So once again I ask what are the expectations of a woman these days?

 

-She is not expected to be the breadwinner

-She is not expected to spend money on a man

-She is no longer expected to clean the house

-She is no longer expected to be good in the kitchen

-She is no longer expected to be good with kids just for being a woman

-etc

 

In short, society no longer expect any specific gender qualities from women, while the the specific gender qualities expected of men remain largely the same since year one so to speak.

 

I get what you are trying to say. That the women around you ask for a level of behavior that they are not willing to reciprocate. Further more that they feel it's their God given right to demand and deny. I get that.

Thats my point. Its amazing that no one else gets it.

 

Anyhow, there ARE couples in the world in which the woman does what you mention, OP. However, the man typically:

 

- Provides financially for the family single-handedly.

- Does not get sex before marriage.

- Pays the girl's father a handsome dowry in order to marry her.

- Will be judged by the girl's family based on his financial status before being able to court her. No nookie for poor college kids like yourself.

- Does not get any of the traits you mentioned in a 'lady' before marrying her.

 

Just pulling out chairs and paying for dates doesn't cut it in such cases, I'm afraid.

Lol, not every traditional country is China ...

 

I'm happy to live with my definitions of a "lady" and a "gentleman" in terms of respect, manners and grooming.

I made a mistake.

 

Instead of Gentleman vs Lady, this should be simply Man vs Woman.

[sb129]

-She is not expected to be the breadwinner

-She is not expected to spend money on a man

-She is no longer expected to clean the house

-She is no longer expected to be good in the kitchen

-She is no longer expected to be good with kids just for being a woman

-etc

 

In my house we are BOTH expected to do all the things above..

 

Equality and all that.

 

And we can both cook too- fancy that!

[Kamille]

Thats my point. Its amazing that no one else gets it.

 

 

 

That's because your perception of what you think is expected of men isn't absolutely convincing. Really, you're trying to convince us it's so hard being a man today, yet you haven't been able to provide any real proof to support your claims. You have to open doors? Boohoo, I open doors for seniors, most of my friends, and if I get there first. Opening a door isn't that hard.

 

You resent paying for dates? Then don't pay for them. While many women prefer a man who will pay for the first few dates, there is a group of us who don't mind chipping in. No one is forcing you to date them.

 

You don't want to be the only breadwinner in your household? Easy! Most women of my generation were raised to provide to the household income. But, I get the impression what you actually want is a housewife. Fine. Then make a decent income and find a woman who would love to stay at home to take care of the kids.

 

 

As for cooking, I know more women who love cooking than women who don't know how to cook. Find one who enjoys cooking and your problems will be solved. Or, better yet, learn how to cook.

 

I get the impression you think you should be compatible with any women and get frustrated because we don't all match your expectations. Stop ranting against women because you refuse to settle for anything less than a subservient, admiring, stay at home chef. Get out there and find her. Tell you the truth Musemaj, when it comes to expectations, you're the male equivalent of the female princess.

[elaina]

Most men want a woman who will respect him... not get up in his face yelling like ghetto trash when they fight. A woman that wont fight him when he wants to lead. We want a woman who isn't nagging or nitpicking, or constantly controlling. That isn't the same as subservient.

 

That makes a lot of sense.

 

I think being a lady is someone who

 

1. is considerate and kind to others, going out of her way to do so (holds the door open for people who are behind her, offers to help when invited to a person's house or when seeing someone in need of help)

2. is respectful and expects to be respected (doesn't curse people out or have a hissy fit when upset)

3. dresses appropriately depending on the occasion (doesn't wear clubwear/cleavagy/tight sexy clothes when working with kids)

4. behaves with decorum (not chewing with one's mouth open or sitting with legs open if wearing a skirt)

5. is a lovely and gracious hostess (makes everyone feel welcome, makes sure guests are well taken care of)

 

I think it's good for women to strive to be ladies. I have the honor of knowing many ladies, and I hope to be like them.

[musemaj11]

That's because your perception of what you think is expected of men isn't absolutely convincing. Really, you're trying to convince us it's so hard being a man today, yet you haven't been able to provide any real proof to support your claims. You have to open doors? Boohoo, I open doors for seniors, most of my friends, and if I get there first. Opening a door isn't that hard.

 

You resent paying for dates? Then don't pay for them. While many women prefer a man who will pay for the first few dates, there is a group of us who don't mind chipping in. No one is forcing you to date them.

 

You don't want to be the only breadwinner in your household? Easy! Most women of my generation were raised to provide to the household income. But, I get the impression what you actually want is a housewife. Fine. Then make a decent income and find a woman who would love to stay at home to take care of the kids.

 

 

As for cooking, I know more women who love cooking than women who don't know how to cook. Find one who enjoys cooking and your problems will be solved. Or, better yet, learn how to cook.

 

I get the impression you think you should be compatible with any women and get frustrated because we don't all match your expectations. Stop ranting against women because you refuse to settle for anything less than a subservient, admiring, stay at home chef. Get out there and find her. Tell you the truth Musemaj, when it comes to expectations, you're the male equivalent of the female princess.

Errr ,,, maybe you are right.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Happy you separated yourself from this a bit. You always seem a lot more logical in your hatred of females than the OP , and I definitely have experienced this attitude as YOU describe it as common. I think it depends a lot on how women are brought up and their male and female influences. If women really think they are the more noble, enlightened, and intelligent sex, this arrogance becomes way more obvious than they realize. And it IS entirely unfounded.

 

Well... OP is just venting and I get that.

 

The real issue is female on male violence and the lack of respect for men in general.

 

If a man gets up in my face screaming and shouting he can expect to get punched in the mouth. Women expect me to just take it or run away. Fact is when that happens... and it's happened A LOT! I just see red and 99.99% of my mental energy goes into controlling my anger.

 

I just have to stop and think... if you hit a guy and he punches your teeth out... you BOTH need to go to jail.

 

I think it's time that we as men start teaching boys to call the police immediately if a woman hits us in anger. Doesn't matter if it hurts or not. It's unacceptable and women in America tend to think it's Ok to do this.

[Els]

That's because your perception of what you think is expected of men isn't absolutely convincing. Really, you're trying to convince us it's so hard being a man today, yet you haven't been able to provide any real proof to support your claims. You have to open doors? Boohoo, I open doors for seniors, most of my friends, and if I get there first. Opening a door isn't that hard.

 

You resent paying for dates? Then don't pay for them. While many women prefer a man who will pay for the first few dates, there is a group of us who don't mind chipping in. No one is forcing you to date them.

 

You don't want to be the only breadwinner in your household? Easy! Most women of my generation were raised to provide to the household income. But, I get the impression what you actually want is a housewife. Fine. Then make a decent income and find a woman who would love to stay at home to take care of the kids.

 

 

As for cooking, I know more women who love cooking than women who don't know how to cook. Find one who enjoys cooking and your problems will be solved. Or, better yet, learn how to cook.

 

I get the impression you think you should be compatible with any women and get frustrated because we don't all match your expectations. Stop ranting against women because you refuse to settle for anything less than a subservient, admiring, stay at home chef. Get out there and find her. Tell you the truth Musemaj, when it comes to expectations, you're the male equivalent of the female princess.

 

Superb post.

[callingyouuu]

Personally, these are the traits of a lady for me:

-Keep her voice down

-Be subservient toward her man

-Dont talk back to men

-Know how to clean

-Know how to cook

-Know how to take care of children

-Dress modestly

-Maintain her appearance

 

I agree that for a woman to find a "gentleman," she should work to become as much of a "lady" as possible, but this is an awful definition to strive for.

[musemaj11]

I agree that for a woman to find a "gentleman," she should work to become as much of a "lady" as possible, but this is an awful definition to strive for.

The whole thing was just a satire.

 

Today women still expect men to possess traditional qualities that have been identified with the male gender for thousands of years, and Im merely telling them to look in the mirror and ask themselves what traditional female qualities do they have? Why demand others to live up to what they refuse to live up to?

 

You want a man who is a 'man'? Then ask yourself first how much of a 'woman' are you in the first place?

 

Well... OP is just venting and I get that.

 

The real issue is female on male violence and the lack of respect for men in general.

 

If a man gets up in my face screaming and shouting he can expect to get punched in the mouth. Women expect me to just take it or run away. Fact is when that happens... and it's happened A LOT! I just see red and 99.99% of my mental energy goes into controlling my anger.

 

I just have to stop and think... if you hit a guy and he punches your teeth out... you BOTH need to go to jail.

 

I think it's time that we as men start teaching boys to call the police immediately if a woman hits us in anger. Doesn't matter if it hurts or not. It's unacceptable and women in America tend to think it's Ok to do this.

Personally for me hitting a woman is no worse than hitting a man.

 

If a woman hits me, I will punch her back.

 

Saying a man should not hit a woman because she is physically weaker is as stupid as saying that American soldiers should not hit Japanese soldiers during WWII because they were skinnier and shorter.