musemaj11 Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 (edited) Today women in general have clear cut expectations of what a gentleman should do and these expectations are pretty much identical to the gentlemanly behaviors expected of men in the 18th century. But I wonder what do women feel the expectations of a lady are? I wonder if women actually hold themselves up to a certain behavioral standard or they just expect others but not themselves? Personally, these are the traits of a lady for me: -Keep her voice down -Be subservient toward her man -Dont talk back to men -Know how to clean -Know how to cook -Know how to take care of children -Dress modestly -Maintain her appearance In my opinion, only if she meets all these criteria a woman can expect a man to be a gentleman and treats her like lady. It seems to me, these days women think that they are ladies just by sitting pretty and doing nothing. They all want the perfect man with traditional qualities while they themselves lack the traditional qualities of a good woman. I mean its sad that when I read threads about men complaining that for example their new wives have no clue about working around the house. Edited December 19, 2010 by musemaj11
skydiveaddict Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 Ya know Muse, you are going to get burned at the stake for this thread.
GooseChaser Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 (edited) Tasks like cooking, cleaning, and child care are more reserved for wives. Yes, a woman should know how to do them, but she won't be performing them regularly for a man before marriage. She might cook for him occasionally, though. If the man had a child, she would probably also enjoy spending time with him or her. Also, I wouldn't say that women should be "subservient" as much as willing to flatter him and make him feel manly. Other jobs of a lady include being respectful, expecting respect from others, being good company, and behaving well, with little drama. Edited December 19, 2010 by GooseChaser
kdark Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 From what you listed it seems like you'd rather have a sexy french maid for a partner, rather than a lady.
Author musemaj11 Posted December 19, 2010 Author Posted December 19, 2010 (edited) From what you listed it seems like you'd rather have a sexy french maid for a partner, rather than a lady. Where did I say I want a 'lady' in the first place? Im not a gentleman and I dont want a lady. Tasks like cooking, cleaning, and child care are more reserved for wives. Yes, a woman should know how to do them, but she won't be performing them regularly for a man before marriage. She might cook for him occasionally, though. If the man had a child, she would probably also enjoy spending time with him or her. Also, I wouldn't say that women should be "subservient" as much as willing to flatter him and make him feel manly. Other jobs of a lady include being respectful, expecting respect from others, being good company, and behaving well, with little drama. So you just make up your own expectations for yourself then? Maybe men should start making up their own definition of what being a gentleman is also such as slamming the door in the face of the woman behind him maybe and call it a gentlemanly behavior. Edited December 19, 2010 by musemaj11
GooseChaser Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 Where did I say I want a 'lady' in the first place? Im not a gentleman and I dont want a lady. So you just make up your own expectations for yourself then? Maybe men should start making up their own definition of what being a gentleman is also such as slamming the door in the face of the woman behind him maybe and call it a gentlemanly behavior. Ahahaha! Exactly which thing that I listed was the equivalent to slamming the door in someone's face? Yes, people do make their own expectations for themselves. If the way they behave is acceptable and compatible to their partner, there's no problem with that. Everyone's different. By the way, if someone slammed the door in a woman's face and called it gentlemanly, I don't think they would have much more of a future. Self-respecting women don't stand for that kind of disrespectful and rude treatment.
Author musemaj11 Posted December 19, 2010 Author Posted December 19, 2010 Ahahaha! Exactly which thing that I listed was the equivalent to slamming the door in someone's face? Yes, people do make their own expectations for themselves. If the way they behave is acceptable and compatible to their partner, there's no problem with that. Everyone's different. By the way, if someone slammed the door in a woman's face and called it gentlemanly, I don't think they would have much more of a future. Self-respecting women don't stand for that kind of disrespectful and rude treatment. What Im saying is that today's common gentlemanly behaviors are not behaviors that men make up for themselves. They are behaviors that society set up for them. So Im wondering what are the equivalent societal expectations on women today? It seems like nothing to me.
GooseChaser Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 What Im saying is that today's common gentlemanly behaviors are not behaviors that men make up for themselves. They are behaviors that society set up for them. So Im wondering what are the equivalent societal expectations on women today? It seems like nothing to me. Societal expectations on women include moderating their sexuality in public so they aren't obnoxious about it and being careful who they sleep with. Women have to worry about pregnancy and STDs. They also have to avoid being labeled as "slutty." In the case that they do get pregnant, they are expected to be responsible and make smart choices in regards to their baby: no drugs, no alcohol, etc.. When they give birth, they are then expected to be a good parent.
Author musemaj11 Posted December 19, 2010 Author Posted December 19, 2010 (edited) Societal expectations on women include moderating their sexuality in public so they aren't obnoxious about it and being careful who they sleep with. Women have to worry about pregnancy and STDs. They also have to avoid being labeled as "slutty." In the case that they do get pregnant, they are expected to be responsible and make smart choices in regards to their baby. Still sound like nothing to me and all of them beside one are also shared by men basically. Besides, obviously a lot of women do live up to those expectations these days ... Its so nice to be a woman in America. Im jealous. Edited December 19, 2010 by musemaj11
aerogurl87 Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 That sounded more like a servant, than a lady. I thought a lady was a woman with manners who carried herself gracefully all while being able to speak her mind without coming across as being bitchy.
Art_Critic Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 A lady never spits.. and always swallows
GooseChaser Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 (edited) Still sound like nothing to me and all of them beside one are also shared by men basically. Besides, obviously a lot of women do live up to those expectations these days ... Its so nice to be a woman in America. Im jealous. Pregnancy and motherhood are a big deal and takes tons of time and energy. A mother's job is very important. Remember that women are also becoming more prominent in society in addition to their traditional role in the home. Women are getting their education and entering the workforce at unprecedented levels. Often, women will work, and then come home and take care of the home. It's almost like a second job. Also, in the case of war, they might not be obligated to enlist in the military like men, but they do have to deal with the absence of the men and the effects that come with it. Not only do they miss and worry for their significant others, but they have to pick up the slack. World War II, in particular, was famous for the large numbers of women going to work while all of the men were gone fighting. In addition, women gain new responsibilities when they get married and move in with their husband, which you mentioned in your first post. Edited December 19, 2010 by GooseChaser
that girl Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 -Keep her voice down -Be subservient toward her man -Dont talk back to men -Know how to clean -Know how to cook -Know how to take care of children -Dress modestly -Maintain her appearance This is the description of what you would expect from a nanny/housekeeper, not a partner. I would describe both a gentleman and a lady the same way, someone who is thoughtful, respectful, considerate, and gracious. You're hung up on the door opening thing, but there is a middle ground where you hold the door for the person behind you regardless of gender. I don't know why you care about this if you wouldn't consider yourself a gentleman, it just seems like trolling.
MJ2 Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 (edited) u kind of made me laugh out loud... so lets see, r ya talking about lady-like ish stuff, or domesticated future wifes ;)sum Qualites that make a woman a lady: Class, grace, dresses well and keeps it classy, intelligent, sense of humor, speaks proper, no profanty, kind hearted, not a gossiper, a lot of charisma, helps others, understanding, and warm natured. well groomed at all times. never raises her voice. and they have to be fun fearless and fabulous Edited December 19, 2010 by MJ2
Author musemaj11 Posted December 19, 2010 Author Posted December 19, 2010 (edited) That sounded more like a servant, than a lady. I thought a lady was a woman with manners who carried herself gracefully all while being able to speak her mind without coming across as being bitchy. -Opening the door for the master to get in -Pulling the chair for the master to sit on -Giving up the seat so the master can sit down -Carrying heavy objects for the master -Laboring hard every day to give food, shelter, and money for the master -Paying for the master on dates so the master can enjoy free meals and entertainment -Letting the master get on the life boat first while the ship is sinking -Protecting the master from criminals -Walking on the dangerous side of the sidewalk so the master wont get hit by a car The above are some of the behaviors expected from a gentleman. Switch the word 'master' with the word 'woman'. Being a gentleman is the same as being a servant as well. For example why can women expect men to provide for them or pay on dates while men cant expect women to obey them or to know how to cook and clean? u kind of made me laugh out loud... so lets see, r ya talking about lady-like ish stuff, or domesticated future wifes sum Qualites that make a woman a lady: Class, grace, dresses well and keeps it classy, intelligent, sense of humor, speaks proper, no profanty, kind hearted, not a gossiper, a lot of charisma, helps others, understanding, and warm natured. well groomed at all times. never raises her voice. and they have to be fun fearless and fabulous That is the romanticized novel version of a lady. We are talking about reality, not Cinderella movie. I would describe both a gentleman and a lady the same way, someone who is thoughtful, respectful, considerate, and gracious. Those are vague adjectives. What the hell count as thoughtful, respectful, considerate and gracious? What if I think that a woman being respectful means she stops talking back to me and starts listening to what I say? Edited December 19, 2010 by musemaj11
aerogurl87 Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 -Opening the door for the master to get in -Pulling the chair for the master to sit on -Giving up the seat so the master can sit down -Laboring hard every day to give food, shelter, and money for the master -Paying for the master on dates so the master can enjoy free meals and entertainment -Letting the master get on the life boat first while the ship is sinking -Protecting the master from criminals -Walking on the dangerous side of the sidewalk so the master wont get hit by a car The above are some of the behaviors expected from a gentleman. Switch the word 'master' with the word 'woman'. Being a gentleman is the same as being a servant as well. Why can women expect men to provide for them while men cant expect women to obey them? Ok first of all I wish you hadn't used the word master in that because it made me think of an episode from the Boondocks and I almost spit out my tea laughing. Back onto the topic at hand, some of the things you mentioned are characteristics of what a man is supposed to do for his family such as provide for them. Any man who can sit back and be happy about not providing for his family has issues. Secondly, if you love someone you should put their life ahead of your own. If it were between me dying and my boyfriend dying, I'd give my life so that he could live because that's what you do for the people you love. It's called sacrifice and goes both ways. I think you've been watching a little too much of The Titanic.
Author musemaj11 Posted December 19, 2010 Author Posted December 19, 2010 Back onto the topic at hand, some of the things you mentioned are characteristics of what a man is supposed to do for his family such as provide for them. Any man who can sit back and be happy about not providing for his family has issues. And a woman is supposed to obey and serve the man who provides for her, know how to cook, know how to clean and know how to take care of kids. A woman who does not have these characteristics have issues. You agree, yes?
sb129 Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 But I wonder what do women feel the expectations of a lady are? I wonder if women actually hold themselves up to a certain behavioral standard or they just expect others but not themselves? These are the expectations I have of myself: (among other things) -work 30 hours a week as a health professional -help my husband start up our new business -Know how to clean -Know how to cook -Know how to take care of children -Dress professionally and comfortably -Maintain my appearance (ESPECIALLY hard after having a child and holding down a job) -maintain relationships with my husband, family and friends Pregnancy and motherhood are a big deal and takes tons of time and energy. A mother's job is very important. Remember that women are also becoming more prominent in society in addition to their traditional role in the home. Women are getting their education and entering the workforce at unprecedented levels. Often, women will work, and then come home and take care of the home. It's almost like a second job. Thank you GooseChaser. And a woman is supposed to obey and serve the man who provides for her, know how to cook, know how to clean and know how to take care of kids. A woman who does not have these characteristics have issues. You agree, yes? No. What if the woman is doing half the providing?
hoping2heal Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 OP, Are you looking for a "lady" or a daughter? Don't talk back to men? Keep her voice down? Be subserviant? I'm pretty sure you are looking for a child there and not an adult partner.
Eclypse Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 The man goes out into the jungle and hunts the food and takes it home to his woman who cooks and prepares it for them while the man recharges his energy from hunting. They then proceed to eat it and everyone is happy
Author musemaj11 Posted December 19, 2010 Author Posted December 19, 2010 Let me remind everyone of the original topic: Today women in general have clear cut expectations of what a gentleman should do and these expectations are pretty much identical to the gentlemanly behaviors expected of men in the 18th century. But I wonder what do women feel the expectations of a lady are? I wonder if women actually hold themselves up to a certain behavioral standard or they just expect others but not themselves? It seems to me, these days women think that they are ladies just by sitting pretty and doing nothing. They all want the perfect man with traditional qualities while they themselves lack the traditional qualities of a good woman. I mean its sad that when I read threads about men complaining that for example their new wives have no clue about working around the house. The man goes out into the jungle and hunts the food and takes it home to his woman who cooks and prepares it for them while the man recharges his energy from hunting. They then proceed to eat it and everyone is happy Except today women arent even expected to know how to cook anymore but a man is still not a man unless he can bring food home.
Yer_Blues Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 I don't pay too much attention to societal trends. It's hard to really define or prove, and it has little effect on individual people in individual relationships. I don't care what the gender roles and expectations for men are, I will define my own roles for each person in a relationship when it comes time, varying based on each person and situation. And I don't know why you want a servant any more than you want to do any of that nonsense you listed about men. There is really nobody enforcing this stuff, and I guarantee you can find individual men and women who do not comply with this very rigid definition of gender expectations. Do women have it way easier and bitch more? As a whole, probably. If you are looking to do nothing and be supported, then yeah, you are probably better equipped as a female. Is the feminist movement hilarious? Yes. But I'm not too concerned. I'll ignore one Disney princess after another so long as there is somebody with an original thought and self-awareness somewhere in the dating pool.
that girl Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 -Opening the door for the master to get in -Pulling the chair for the master to sit on -Giving up the seat so the master can sit down -Walking on the dangerous side of the sidewalk so the master wont get hit by a car These are very traditional male manners, they are no longer expected by everyone. They also aren't massively time consuming or expect a man to completely ignore his own wants and needs. -Carrying heavy objects for the master I'm 5'9", pretty tall for a woman. When I have had female roommates, I have always been taller than them, so I have always been open to say, getting things off high shelves. Since this has only come up with women, the issue isn't gender. But why wouldn't I help someone out when it costs me nothing? The issue really isn't gender, it is size and strength. A woman asking a 90 year old man to carry her heavy UPS package would obviously be completely out of line. A 5'4", 130 pound woman asking her 5'10, 180 pound male friend of the same age to carry her heavy UPS package is being reasonable. The action would take less effort from him, so why wouldn't he do it. As someone who is naturally generous, I don't think twice about asking people for help because I am very willing to help others. -Laboring hard every day to give food, shelter, and money for the master One income families haven't been the norm for most of human history. Today both parents generally work. But for those that don't, watching a baby for 8 hours a day is very hard work (if you haven't done it, you have no idea). I have been a paid nanny and I would say that was harder than any office job I have ever had. Coal miners have a leg up, but don't pretend most men are coal miners. In the past and in underdeveloped countries there often is a divide between inside women's work and outside men's work, but it isn't like the women are all sitting with their feet up eating bon-bons. Getting enough water for a family without indoor plumbing is back breaking work that generally falls to women. Add on top of that laundry with no machine and making all your food from scratch (including bread and butter) and you have an enormous amount of physical labor. -Letting the master get on the life boat first while the ship is sinking This was the policy for biological reasons- few women mean a drop in population and a rise in infant mortality. -Protecting the master from criminals Laughter, just laughter. Lots of women are looking for a man who will be the primary breadwinner while they concentrate on child rearing. You do not have to date those women if you don't want to. Lots of other women would prefer to work and either not have children or hire help. Regardless, having your chair pulled out for you isn't worth being expected to obey your spouse. Happy marriages have never worked that way.
GooseChaser Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 Everyone has decisions that they make for themselves. They can aspire to be good partners and/or parents, they can decide not to care about their responsibilities, or they can choose to stay single. A woman can learn to cook, or choose not to. There are options for those who choose not to so that they do not starve. However, it is a valid point that some men may turn them down because of their choice. That's just how it goes. Fortunately for them, there are men out there that don't care if they can cook, so most of them aren't doomed to live alone. At the end of the day, people need to eat, and therefore someone has to make money. Historically, that has been men. It is a source of pride for them to be the breadwinner of their family. I'm sure there are other reasons too, but I'm not an expert on that. If a man doesn't want to be the sole wage-earner, they can find someone who is willing to make some money for their family. It's simple.
Yer_Blues Posted December 19, 2010 Posted December 19, 2010 Everyone has decisions that they make for themselves. They can aspire to be good partners and/or parents, they can decide not to care about their responsibilities, or they can choose to stay single. A woman can learn to cook, or choose not to. There are options for those who choose not to so that they do not starve. However, it is a valid point that some men may turn them down because of their choice. That's just how it goes. Fortunately for them, there are men out there that don't care if they can cook, so most of them aren't doomed to live alone. At the end of the day, people need to eat, and therefore someone has to make money. Historically, that has been men. It is a source of pride for them to be the breadwinner of their family. I'm sure there are other reasons too, but I'm not an expert on that. If a man doesn't want to be the sole wage-earner, they can find someone who is willing to make some money for their family. It's simple. Everything is simple when your primary focus/motivation isn't stereotyping every person in the world into two categories based on their genitals.
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