Jennie - an unapologetic OW

[Ellin]

Really? So, a woman with good self esteem and great wisdom willfully puts herself into a situation with a MM, where she stays for 5 years - despite wanting more and wanting him to leave his W and be with her? Don't you think a woman with great wisdom would enter into a R to begin with, with another human being who is available emotionally and physically? She has definately been through her share of pain and mistreatment, and as a result she falls hook line and sinker for a MM who can give her words, instead of actions and has mistaken the two for something of substance.

She loved him before he was M. Love was already there. She would like him not to be M but she chooses to be with him as he is than not be with him at all. That is her conscious choice. Why do you say he is not available emotionally and physically and only give her words? That is not what Jennie says.

 

 

 

No, there are some women in affairs both here and else-wise who are very realistic about their affairs and what is taking place. That is what I would call coping, well. It isn't as though I get a door prize if JJ "sees things my way" . I already have a wonderful relationship that I'm blessed with. I have never been a BS nor a BGF. I'm not one some agenda simply because I can see through the situation. Her MM's actions talk, and so do hers. Now, if she simply wanted sex and flirting..as some women do - without a real relationship then my stance would be entirely different. It would make sense that she were in this position and I'd say nothing about it.

I am not saying you have an agenda but you seem to find it hard to see a different point of view. Maybe it is because you have not had any experience of the things Jennie has gone through.

 

She does not simply want sex but she simply wants a R with this particular man and the way it is is good enough for her. More positives than negatives as she keeps saying. It is pretty clear, isnt it?

 

Ellin, she is settling. Just because she is having an affair does not mean she is strong and confident. She wants to share this man's life with him. She wants much more than what she has, but he will not give it so she is settling for so much less than what a relationship with an available person could offer her. Why must everything be so split? So, either you have an amazing emotional/mental/sexual connection with a man..and accept an affair, or you get married and "settle" for oatmeal? The real world does not work that way.

 

I did not say she is confident BECAUSE she is in an A. She is confident because she is and that is why she knows what she wants to do with her life. You see, things in the "real world" do not work in one way only and this is what I keep trying to tell you.

[Ellin]

I would think that a repentent OW has been given great insight as to their own actions in an affair.

 

Just because a former ow/om warns others, does not mean they haven't seen their own part in the A. Perhaps their frustration can be seen as the so-called "anger" you speak of.

Whether it is anger or frustration it is misplacing one's energy all the same.

And it if often anger that comes through especially from BSs and moral lecturers.

[donnamaybe]

She loved him before he was M. Love was already there. She would like him not to be M but she chooses to be with him as he is than not be with him at all. That is her conscious choice. Why do you say he is not available emotionally and physically and only give her words? That is not what Jennie says.

We all have a right to our own opinion and to voice it.

You see, things in the "real world" do not work in one way only and this is what I keep trying to tell you.

Would that you could read these words and see that they apply to EVERYONE - not just people you disagree with.

[Owl]

I think there are many differences.

 

One is that Jen is a far more patient and tolerant person than I am.

 

This is my main point. The key difference here is that Jennie is willing to accept the situation, tolerate his continued inaction towards resolving/ending his marriage and pursuing a fuller relationship with Jennie. She's latched onto the concept of the "split self" affair as his "reasons" for not changing the situation, and he is now under no real pressure to change.

 

He doesn't leave his wife/tell his wife because he has no reason to. He has exactly what he wants right now without making that happen.

 

 

 

Also, he'd been separated from his then-W previously. He'd been told by everybody (almost literally) how toxic the M was, and how pleased they were that they were split... so he knew it was possible (and comfortable) for him to live without her.

 

I'm curious if Jennie's MM has heard this or not? I admit...I'm also curious if this applies to Jennie's MM's marriage or not?

 

I don't know that we've seen any posts to indicate whether or not his current relationship is toxic, blah, or what, really. I could be wrong on this.

 

 

Which is another key difference - Jen's MM comes from / lives in a culture that considers As wrong, and divorce / desertion of the family wrong.

 

I thought Jennie had indicated that affairs were much more accepted in her culture than in the U.S. and many other cultures? Especially when done by men, rather than by women? Again, I could be wrong here.

 

 

But I guess the key difference is that he was ready. .

 

I don't think that "ready" is something that just happens. I think that people make changes for a reason, and I think the key difference here is that JJ's MM simply doesn't have a reason to change. He's got no "drive" to end the marriage or the affair...because while it may be stressful, the perks of remaining right where he's at outweigh the stress he's in. And until something changes that causes the stress of staying where he's at to outweigh the benefits...he's going to stay right where he is.

[Owl]

She does not simply want sex but she simply wants a R with this particular man and the way it is is good enough for her. More positives than negatives as she keeps saying. It is pretty clear, isnt it?

 

I think this is key too.

 

Right now, the benefits of staying in a relationship with him outweigh the negatives.

 

I think that the problem here is that most posters that don't understand Jennie's acceptance with the situation simply can't see how this could be the case.

 

Myself included in that, mind you.

 

The bottomline is that both Jennie and her MM are exactly where they want to be right now.

 

In an affair.

 

She has no expectation that it will change anytime soon (although she has hopes/expectations that 'someday' it will, but the exact when is both nebulous and unimportant to her). His expectations are even simpler...he's where he has choosen to be, and his actions indicate it's where he's going to remain for the indeterminate future. He's having needs satisified by both women and there's no pressure on him to change.

 

Most OW wouldn't accept this situation, nor can most other posters see where Jennie gets enough benefits from the situation to stay...but clearly, she does.

[jthorne]

Owl,

Considering that jennie recently posted on another thread that the BS thinks WS is a saint, that leads me to believe that their M is far from toxic. And (absent a d-day) far from over.

[OWoman]

This is my main point. The key difference here is that Jennie is willing to accept the situation, tolerate his continued inaction towards resolving/ending his marriage and pursuing a fuller relationship with Jennie. She's latched onto the concept of the "split self" affair as his "reasons" for not changing the situation, and he is now under no real pressure to change.

 

He doesn't leave his wife/tell his wife because he has no reason to. He has exactly what he wants right now without making that happen.

 

Thing is, though, Owl - if he wasn't ready to leave, or willing to entertain the possibility of IC, then pressure would not make him do anything sustainable.

 

Doing something "under duress" because you worry about losing someone isn't the same as doing it because you've reached the conclusion it's the right thing, and what you want to do.

 

I'm curious if Jennie's MM has heard this or not? I admit...I'm also curious if this applies to Jennie's MM's marriage or not?

 

I don't know that we've seen any posts to indicate whether or not his current relationship is toxic, blah, or what, really. I could be wrong on this.

 

 

IIRC, it's not toxic. It's just passionless.

 

I thought Jennie had indicated that affairs were much more accepted in her culture than in the U.S. and many other cultures? Especially when done by men, rather than by women? Again, I could be wrong here.

 

Jen's culture is. His isn't. His culture is critical and unsupportive.

 

 

 

I don't think that "ready" is something that just happens. I think that people make changes for a reason, and I think the key difference here is that JJ's MM simply doesn't have a reason to change. He's got no "drive" to end the marriage or the affair...because while it may be stressful, the perks of remaining right where he's at outweigh the stress he's in. And until something changes that causes the stress of staying where he's at to outweigh the benefits...he's going to stay right where he is.

 

Hmmm... I think this is chicken and egg. I think motivation also arises from readiness. If you're not ready, it can simply seem too daunting to even start...

[OWoman]

At the end of the day, the so-called "moral lecturer", would be of greater help to the OW, than one who boasts of the MM ending his M and marrying her, and in encouragement of the lifestyle.

 

That's quite an assumption! So you know what's best for everyone who posts here, do you? I honestly didn't know god had an LS account!

[OWoman]

Not allowed to post of God's Word in this. That's what helps sin to have the upper hand.

 

is this the latest incarnation of Nan / DIC? or did someone else lose a sock in the washing machine?

[jthorne]

is this the latest incarnation of Nan / DIC? or did someone else lose a sock in the washing machine?

Oh, I get it. It's ok to post if it fits the cheerleading affairs agenda, but if religion is brought up, it must be something amiss...

 

oooookkkaaayyyyy.....

[BB07]

I worry about jennie because I think she has blind faith in her mm. IMO, blind faith in anyone is dangerous.

 

Perhaps........jennie likes things as they are more than she is letting on. The reason that I say that is because there were certain aspects of the relationship that I had with xmm (well before I found out the truth) that I did like. I liked not having to deal with him day in, day out, not having to wash his dirty undies and socks, not having to pick up after him, not having to cook for him, blah, blah, blah. I'll also say that I liked aspects of it because it was a long distance relationship. The excitment of seeing each other a couple of times a week, didn't leave time to get bored with each other. In other words not living a day to day life with someone does lend a little more excitement to a relationship if you like that sort of thing. Perhaps jennie likes that aspect of it more than she says so.

[OWoman]

Oh, I get it. It's ok to post if it fits the cheerleading affairs agenda, but if religion is brought up, it must be something amiss...

 

oooookkkaaayyyyy.....

 

This appears to be addressed to me, but I have no idea what it's supposed to mean. could you please explain?

[OWoman]

I worry about jennie because I think she has blind faith in her mm. IMO, blind faith in anyone is dangerous.

 

Perhaps........jennie likes things as they are more than she is letting on. The reason that I say that is because there were certain aspects of the relationship that I had with xmm (well before I found out the truth) that I did like. I liked not having to deal with him day in, day out, not having to wash his dirty undies and socks, not having to pick up after him, not having to cook for him, blah, blah, blah. I'll also say that I liked aspects of it because it was a long distance relationship. The excitment of seeing each other a couple of times a week, didn't leave time to get bored with each other. In other words not living a day to day life with someone does lend a little more excitement to a relationship if you like that sort of thing. Perhaps jennie likes that aspect of it more than she says so.

 

I must say, back in my OW days, I enjoyed many things about it being an A rather than a FTR too. There are definite benefits. But not everyone wants a PTR, just as not everyone wants a FTR - people need to choose what works for them.

[BB07]

I must say, back in my OW days, I enjoyed many things about it being an A rather than a FTR too. There are definite benefits. But not everyone wants a PTR, just as not everyone wants a FTR - people need to choose what works for them.

 

If my xmm hadn't turned out to be such a damn liar, the set up would have worked just fine for me. I don't think I want any man on a full time basis, btdt.

[jthorne]

This appears to be addressed to me, but I have no idea what it's supposed to mean. could you please explain?

It's not addressed to you specifically. It's addressed to anyone who would care to discredit anyone with whom they do not agree. It seems to happen quite a bit with the more controversial threads.

 

You know, like if I don't cheerlead jennie in her affair, I must be a bitter BS or a ROW?

[pureinheart]

I'm curious Jennie...you've noted that the "split self affair" isn't a "pop culture" thing, that Emily Brown has contributed to other works...etc...

 

Does any other psychologist/therapist/etc... subscribe and publish works around the "split self" concept?

 

She's been the only proponent of this concept that I've seen...which makes is suspect in my mind at least.

 

And I have to agree with others....to me...it's the "perfect out" for you.

 

It gives you the perfect excuse to accept behavior that otherwise you'd be forced to admit and acknowledge was unacceptable..

 

It gives the perfect "excuse" for the situation to remain the same, for him to act like pretty much every other MM we've seen on the board, for no discernable change (or change that occurs at such a slow pace that it's taken 5 years for pretty much nothing to happen).

 

I don't buy the theory, frankly. I do understand that you do, and you embrace it....and I feel that the reason you do is because it gives you what you want, rather than being a real "condition" that prevents any real changes occuring at a pace that anyone would consider reasonable. You want to have a "reason" for your situation to exist the way that it does...and this is what you found that fits the bill.

 

From your thousands of posts, and countless descriptions of your situation, I don't see anything that tells me that he's any different than all the other MM's we've seen described here.

 

He's not changing, because he has everything he wants right now. A wife and a mistress, one ignorant of the situation and therefore not 'making waves', and the other willing to accept a pretty far-fetched theory on why change doesn't have to happen.

 

His reasons for not telling his wife, for not truly changing the situation aren't because he's "torn" or conflicted...his reasons are much, much simpler. He doesn't have an onus for change, and reason to cause the situation to potentially tip away from him having needs met by both women.

 

He doesn't change because he doesn't have to.

 

You accept the situation in front of you because you want to...not because Emily Brown says this is the way it's gonna be.

 

Everyone has their own mental gymnastics to rationalize what they want/do...they just rarely admit to themselves what they're doing.

 

Bold...does Jennie need an out though? Personally I think the "Split Self" fits and explains a lot (it certainly did in my case), although I don't think Jennie really needs it to understand that she is in love with this man and wants to be with him no matter the cost. That is how I felt back in the day and had no clue about certain psych matters. I have always been interested in psychology, and had been to councelling a lot and read many self help books.. I just knew that I loved exDM and knew he was in a bad situation (which did play itself out).

[Owl]

Bold...does Jennie need an out though? Personally I think the "Split Self" fits and explains a lot (it certainly did in my case), although I don't think Jennie really needs it to understand that she is in love with this man and wants to be with him no matter the cost. That is how I felt back in the day and had no clue about certain psych matters. I have always been interested in psychology, and had been to councelling a lot and read many self help books.. I just knew that I loved exDM and knew he was in a bad situation (which did play itself out).

 

Jennie's made it clear that she did a lot of research, and was glad that she found this "explanation" for MM's behavior.

 

While I surely don't expect her to admit it, I do believe that she needed an "out" for his behavior...and she searched until she found it. She needed to understand WHY he was doing what he was doing...this gave her an explanation that made it sound "noble" somehow.

 

It certainly sounds nicer than "conflict-avoider", or "cake-eater", either of which are also potential 'answers' to the same question of why.

[donnamaybe]

Jennie's made it clear that she did a lot of research, and was glad that she found this "explanation" for MM's behavior.

 

While I surely don't expect her to admit it, I do believe that she needed an "out" for his behavior...and she searched until she found it. She needed to understand WHY he was doing what he was doing...this gave her an explanation that made it sound "noble" somehow.

 

It certainly sounds nicer than "conflict-avoider", or "cake-eater", either of which are also potential 'answers' to the same question of why.

I have to agree, Owl.

 

It's like when you have a guy in your life who, while not exactly abusive or anything to that extent, you find yourself making excuses for at times in other areas. Eventually I grew a pair and refused to make excuses for anyone any longer. Now I have a man I don't have to make ANY excuses for.

 

Makes me kinda sad.

[OWoman]

It's not addressed to you specifically. It's addressed to anyone who would care to discredit anyone with whom they do not agree. It seems to happen quite a bit with the more controversial threads.

 

Weird that you quoted my post then. I merely observed that an off-topic religiosity characteristic of another poster, and her subsequent incarnation, appeared to be recurring in a different poster. If people want to unleash socks, they can't be surprised when that gets noted.

 

You know, like if I don't cheerlead jennie in her affair, I must be a bitter BS or a ROW?

 

No, I don't know. I've seen plenty of people (I can't name individual posters, as that would violate the TOS) who post opposing standpoints, but who do so respectfully and with a light touch whose posts are well received, even though they are a BS and are certainly not "cheerleading". Just because some people's posting styles draw criticism doesn't mean it's because they "aren't cheerleading". Sometimes it's because they come across as nasty, and get called out for that.

[OWoman]

Jennie's made it clear that she did a lot of research, and was glad that she found this "explanation" for MM's behavior.

 

While I surely don't expect her to admit it, I do believe that she needed an "out" for his behavior...and she searched until she found it. She needed to understand WHY he was doing what he was doing...this gave her an explanation that made it sound "noble" somehow.

 

It certainly sounds nicer than "conflict-avoider", or "cake-eater", either of which are also potential 'answers' to the same question of why.

 

Owl, I'm not trying to speak for Jen, but what's wrong with trying to understand why someone is acting the way they are? Sometimes the anti-intellectualism on this forum really gets me - it's as if anybody who exercises a braincell is guilty of subverting Life As We Know It.

 

There is a big difference between understanding something and excusing it. IMO, unless you understand WHY something happens, you are less likely to be able to do anything about it, since you'll only be addressing symptoms and not the cause.

[someday]

JJ, if nothing else you are entertaining.

[JustJoe]

I agree with this, completely , Owoman, but in this age of evasion, superficiality, and Passive-Agressiveness, sometimes it is very hard to pry the truth out of people. We have learned to be pleasant, but we haven't learned to communicate. Owl, if Jennie can't get the answers she needs from her MM, she's got to get them from somewhere.

[2themoon&back]

It's not addressed to you specifically. It's addressed to anyone who would care to discredit anyone with whom they do not agree. It seems to happen quite a bit with the more controversial threads.

 

You know, like if I don't cheerlead jennie in her affair, I must be a bitter BS or a ROW?

 

Could someone please tell me what this is a ROW?

[donnamaybe]

There is a big difference between understanding something and excusing it. IMO, unless you understand WHY something happens, you are less likely to be able to do anything about it, since you'll only be addressing symptoms and not the cause.

But sometimes some people desperately NEED for there to be a reason beyond "because he feels like it" so they grasp at whatever they can pretzel around to fit their circumstances. ESPECIALLY for people with a low self esteem, and someone with the admitted dysfunctional family/relationship situations she's been in thus far is bound to have problems in this area. It's only natural.

[pureinheart]

I find it strange how you are trying to convince someone who says she's ok, that she is in fact desperate and how you are attempting to re-write her own perspective of her own situation.

 

I listen to what Jennie is and have consistently been saying in all her posts and I definitely don't see someone desperate (there definitely are posters that could be called that on this forum but Jennie is not one of them).

 

I see a person who has quite good self-esteem and great wisom and understanding of herself and others, having worked through many difficult issues. A person who is confident and strong and knows exactly what she wants after she carefully thoroughly thought it through.

 

In fact, women who cope well in As are those who don't have low self-esteem and fragile egos and have made a conscious choice to be in that situation and deal with whatever comes.

 

This is what Jennie has been clearly communicating.

 

Do you find it hard to see that someone else's perspective and way of experiencing certain situation can be completely different from your own?

 

Strong, confident women who have their own opinions can choose any type of R they want and see it as their conscious choice of something that works for them, not settling. You and probably most people see a situation like hers as very bad - she doesn't.

 

Sorry Jennie I ąm writing about you and not to you, but I wanted to describe the impression I get from reading your posts.

 

I completely agree Ellin, Jennies intelligence is on a very high level...and it cracks me up that this is her "second" language...it's my first and I still don't get it...but that's neither here nor there:).

 

I am not in an A and am experiencing low self esteem issues, and I don't plan to enter into an A, so I don't think that is the issue. I don't see an issue with her at all.