Jennie - an unapologetic OW

[Heather1]

Doing well....keeping it real:)

 

I think you're a good example of a workable A & that it's possible. Yes, anything can happen & none of us are secure in our R, m or not. We all just do the best we can.

 

About the Al-anon thing...it's also about boundaries, which I think all co-dependants have a lifelong struggle w/, which is probably how we got to this place!!

[bentnotbroken]

Doing well....keeping it real:)

 

I think you're a good example of a workable A & that it's possible. Yes, anything can happen & none of us are secure in our R, m or not. We all just do the best we can.

 

About the Al-anon thing...it's also about boundaries, which I think all co-dependants have a lifelong struggle w/, which is probably how we got to this place!!

 

 

And lot of us just do the least we can.

[Lauriebell82]

Jennie, do you see this A as a safe relationship? Like you won't get hurt because you don't really have much to lose? In a conventional relationship, one person can always leave the other, and get hurt. In your A, your MM probably will not leave you, as he has stayed for 5 years, and you said you have no intention of leaving him. So do you see him as "safe?"

 

Also, how do you know he isn't/won't have sex with his wife? Aren't you scared he will?

[Lauriebell82]

About Al-Anon, no, I don't think I am missing the purpose of it. The purpose is to let go of your obsession of the alcoholic's drinking and to concentrate on yourself and your own life. It is up to you as the partner of the alcoholic whether you want to stay with him/her or not, independent of whether he/she continues to drink or not.

 

I went to Al-Anon for many years, so I know their message well. Perhaps you interpret their program differently, I don't know, but this is how I understood it.

 

Okay, so you feel alcoholism and adultary are in the same category? Alcoholics cannot stop drinking, they can't control themselves. Cheating men can control themselves, they just don't want to. Do you feel that your MM cannot control himself to not be with two women at the same time?

[Rose1977]

Oh, Rose, I am so sorry for what you had to go through. I too have been the BS and know the pain, although for you it seems to have been way worse than it was for me. And yet to me too it was devastating, for a while I lost my desire to live.

 

Both my MM and I were in relationships when we reconnected. I played with an open deck to my SO from the start. He agreed to stay with me although he knew of my MM, so for a year or so I had two parallel relationships. Then I ended it with my SO, to his dismay.

 

I could never do what my MM is doing. Never. But it is his relationship, his responsibility. Although I can sympathize with his wife, there is nothing I can do to prevent her being hurt. I can not sacrifice my own relationship for a relationship that is dying in my eyes.

 

Any guilt is on my MM's shoulders. He is the one married to her. I wish he would handle his situation differently, but it is his life, not mine.

 

Thank you for asking your question with such care. I hope my answer makes some kind of sense to you.

 

 

JJ,

Thank you for your honest answer. I think it is helpful to see both sides of the coin, which is why I come to both the infidelity and OW/OM forums. I am glad you started this thread, it's not often a BS can actually find answers she has been lacking from an OW. I appreciate your candidness.

[NoIDidn't]

I'm surprised that people actually have questions for you Jennie.

 

Its just a run of the mill affair (long-term one), IMO. Just that you view it differently. Everything reported as being said by the MM are right from the "script".

 

If anything, your acceptance in this affair is a testament to faith - be it religious or otherwise. Belief and reality never have to be the same when you have faith in what you believe regardless of what seems obvious to many others. I'm serious. Not at all trying to insult you. I'm devoted to my religious beliefs. And I can say that this type of faith causes things to change - be it the situation or the way we feel about it. And that seems to have happened for you.

 

But, regardless of all this. If you are happy, I'm sure you couldn't care less what anyone else thinks. I don't agree with you on much, but I do get your feelings about your situation.

[Carrot2000]

I understand what you are saying, and actually agree with it. My post though was about whether the MM treats his OW right, not about the wife.

 

It's like my MM says, he has a woman and a wife. He is jealous of me, but not of his wife. He believes (but understands he might be wrong) that he would not mind if she found another man.

 

I have tried to make him see that his wife would be better of without him, that she deserves the same kind of love that we share, but I can't get through to him in this aspect.

 

 

I totally understand that the way he treats you is the only thing that matters in your mind. Still, I tend to judge the character of a man by the way he treats all women--whether it's his wife, his OW, or the crazy cat lady who lives next door.

 

He's jealous of you because he knows he has no claim on you; you're the wild card in this situation. His wife, on the other hand, is a sure thing. As long as he can cover his tracks and not get caught, she's not going anywhere.

 

You make him happy. His wife makes him happy. In the grand scheme of things, it seems MM's only concern is that he is happy. He completely understands that his wife deserves the same, but allowing her to find love would mean letting her go--and he would have to give up all of the benefits of marriage. I find his total disregard for her happiness far more distasteful than his infidelity.

 

I hope you don't spend another 5 years on this cat. I hope you'll meet a wonderful, single, gorgeous, rich, well-hung man in 2011 who can give you 120% of himself!

[NoIDidn't]

He's jealous of you because he knows he has no claim on you; you're the wild card in this situation. His wife, on the other hand, is a sure thing. As long as he can cover his tracks and not get caught, she's not going anywhere.

 

That's the way I understood that comment as well. As I said, run of the mill. Almost all MM say that to their OWs. They take their Ws for granted and prove it with that statement. Their jealousy isn't based on something great about the OW, only the fact that she's single and can date anyone she pleases.

 

A MM can't do that. They can't just pick up and go anywhere they want. They can't be as irresponsible with their money as they want to. They have to cover their tracks to not upset that most important applecart (W and possible kids). The single OW doesn't have to do that.

 

I haven't read the entire book yet, but this phenomenon is covered in a book called the Married Man-Single Woman Syndrome. Don't remember the author. Sorry.

[pureinheart]

It's interesting that I don't see any of the regulars that jump all over you (in other posters threads) and spout off one-liner smart ass comments/questions directed to your R, only to then accuse you of thread-jacking when you answer them. Here's their chance to post all those smart ass comments/questions, and I don't see them.

 

I was wondering the very same thing....

[NoIDidn't]

It's interesting that I don't see any of the regulars that jump all over you (in other posters threads) and spout off one-liner smart ass comments/questions directed to your R, only to then accuse you of thread-jacking when you answer them. Here's their chance to post all those smart ass comments/questions, and I don't see them.

 

 

 

I was wondering the very same thing....

 

I say you'll get what you ask for. The Law of Attraction and all.

 

This will be a 35 page thread tomorrow by noon.

 

LOL

[Distant78]

This isn't happiness. Nothing but deception at it's fullest and everyone who posted on this thread knows it, but is afraid to speak otherwise because we have an unapologetic OW who's so stern to stay with a MM who's only using her for a piece of meat. If the affair really makes one happy, why doesn't the children know? This isn't going to last forever and someone is going to talk and by God I hope the BW doesn't go crazy after finding out about so many years of betrayal. He might as well leave his wife so she can find REAL love but no, he likes the safety of his marriage, and the secrecy of his side dish. Poor kids and nothing but cowardness.

[whichwayisup]

I was wondering the very same thing....

It's the weekend, alot of people don't go on LS over their weekends, alot post from work ..plus it's close to Xmas, people get busy.

 

This will be a 35 page thread tomorrow by noon.

 

[jsb58]

This forum is for support and discussion, but what is the purpose of this thread? There is no real issue or question asked. The thread appears to be for attention-seeking purposes.

Why do you require this level of attention?

[whichwayisup]

I'm surprised that people actually have questions for you Jennie.

 

Its just a run of the mill affair (long-term one), IMO. Just that you view it differently. Everything reported as being said by the MM are right from the "script".

 

If anything, your acceptance in this affair is a testament to faith - be it religious or otherwise. Belief and reality never have to be the same when you have faith in what you believe regardless of what seems obvious to many others. I'm serious. Not at all trying to insult you. I'm devoted to my religious beliefs. And I can say that this type of faith causes things to change - be it the situation or the way we feel about it. And that seems to have happened for you.

 

But, regardless of all this. If you are happy, I'm sure you couldn't care less what anyone else thinks. I don't agree with you on much, but I do get your feelings about your situation.

 

The part in bold, I completely agree with you. Only difference is how JJ views her own situation. Her MM is similar to some OW's on here, though I give him props that he isn't messing her up, playing the cat/mouse game, and acting jerkish like some other MM do to their OW's..Though that could all change if/when a D-Day happens. Never say never, there have been countless OW and afew OM who swore their MM or MW would NEVER throw them under the bus... Yet, it happened.

 

For your sake JJ, I hope your MM never throws you under the bus. Problem is, he doesn't know HOW he is going to feel when the time comes his wife finds out the truth. Anything can happen on D-Day.

[whichwayisup]

This forum is for support and discussion, but what is the purpose of this thread? There is no real issue or question asked. The thread appears to be for attention-seeking purposes.

Why do you require this level of attention?

 

Isn't it better for JJ to have her own thread so everybody else's thread doesn't turn into a discussion about her? For a while now that's how it's been. It isn't fair to a newcomer or a regular member who posts a thread to have it become about someone else.

 

I just hope that her thread doesn't outshine and take away advice to those who truly are in need of help and support, especially newbies who have just joined LS.

[hoping2heal]

The part in bold, I completely agree with you. Only difference is how JJ views her own situation. Her MM is similar to some OW's on here, though I give him props that he isn't messing her up, playing the cat/mouse game, and acting jerkish like some other MM do to their OW's...

 

Well, he is meeting some needs of hers on some level so it isn't all bad. I think the OW being in the dark about the MM's "other life" is both a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, there is a whole other valid part of his life they are excluded from and though a lot of it has dishonesty mixed in, there are still all kinds of genuine interactions and things missed. On the other hand, not knowing helps keep the fire burning so to speak. You can fantasize anything you want about the MM and what his homelife is like. You don't have to see him enjoying time with another woman or the two of them fit together or don't fit together. It also leaves the MM on a proverbial high note, in most cases.

 

Most might not see it that way, but he's kept a woman on the line for five years and seperate from very vital part of his life. Unlike JJ, He has someone to help share responsibilities and raise the children with. He has someone to keep him warm in bed at night. He has someone to give him companionship and consistency. The fact that she has accepted and admits she would stay in this situation another 5 or 10 years if it is necessary alludes to the fact that he has messed her up plenty, it is just not in the way we might often think of. It would be one thing if she did not want more from the MM, then it would be understandable. The fact that she does want more and he won't give it, but she still stays speaks volumes to what he's done to her.

[Distant78]

The only need he's meeting are sexual, and nothing more and he's not being a man by continuing in this type of destructive behavior.

[pureinheart]

Jen was asked to start her own thread to give people the opportunity to ask her all the questions they always ask her on other people's threads, taking those threads off-topic - so that's what she's done. I don't see what's egotistical about responding politely to a polite request?

 

This forum is for support and discussion, but what is the purpose of this thread? There is no real issue or question asked. The thread appears to be for attention-seeking purposes.

Why do you require this level of attention?

 

In other threads Jennie gets asked many questions as OWoman has stated.

[Ms. Red]

This forum is for support and discussion, but what is the purpose of this thread? There is no real issue or question asked. The thread appears to be for attention-seeking purposes.

Why do you require this level of attention?

 

You obviously didn't read the opening post in full, because Jennie stated:

 

I am starting this thread because I want to discuss my relationship with LS posters. Although many posters' views differ from mine, I find discussing with you helps me understand myself and my situation better.

 

Which clearly defines her purpose for this thread. And as previously stated:

 

Jen was asked to start her own thread to give people the opportunity to ask her all the questions they always ask her on other people's threads, taking those threads off-topic - so that's what she's done. I don't see what's egotistical about responding politely to a polite request?

 

Get it now?

[pureinheart]

The only need he's meeting are sexual, and nothing more and he's not being a man by continuing in this type of destructive behavior.

 

Hi Distant,

 

I must disagree with you due to the fact that Jennie has said they spend countless hours together conversing. A man who is just after sex doesnot do this IMO.

 

ExDM and I had an EA and he was not having sex with his W (I know this to be true because I heard it fromj all of the horses mouth and exDM didn't tell me this until I asked him about it out of curiousity after him and his ex had split.

 

We didn't have sex when we were "together" because this time I wanted to wait until M. We were together for three years after he had split with his W and 2 years prior.

 

I think Jennies MM is crazy about her and sex is not the only reason he is with her.

[jennie-jennie]

I did take a look at the split self affair. From what I gather it is a title given to those who "want" to do the right thing but don't actually do the right thing. Do you know wether or not this term is recognized as a psychological diagnosis or more of a pop psychology thing? It just seems that a split self affair, is no different from anyone else who leads a double life and compartmentalizes because it goes against what their value system registers as being "right". There are many people and situations that would fall under the category of "split self affair" minus the affair part. That is why I am wondering if it is rather an actual diagnosis of something more - and not so much about being a "split self affair". In which case it is more about doing something that is wrong, but wishing you were the type of person who did the right thing. When your actions and values do not line up.

 

I am really not sure I agree with the way that "split self affair" seems to almost make excuses for a MM's bad behavior and again that is not at all exclusive to people in affairs. There are many people who make lifestyle choices each and every day to do things that go against their value system.

 

Would you agree with this? Or do you see it differently?

 

The split self affair is not a "pop psychology thing". Therapist Emily Brown has contributed with a chapter in the book Handbook of the Cliinical Treatment of Infidelity, which presents "a current review of empirical and theoretical work designed to identify successful clinical strategies for addressing infidelity" (Todd Shackelford, PhD, Professor of Psychology, Florida Atlantic University). The editors of the book (Fred P. Piercy, PhD, Virginia Tech; Katherine Hertlein, PhD, Assistant Professor of Marriage and Family Therapy, University of Nevada-Las Vegas; Joseph Wetchler, PhD, Professor and Director of the Marriage and Family Therapy Program, Purdue University) have a long list of credentials, and as I understand it work with educating family therapists at university level. So it seems Emily Brown's work is well respected among her peers.

 

Emily Brown describes the dysfunctional family where both spouses want "to do the right thing". They have lost contact with their emotional selves. Just like in the dysfunctional family where the anorectic child shows the symptoms, in this family it is the unfaithful spouse who shows the symptoms of the dysfunctional family.

 

This model of explanation of infidelity suits me. It speaks my language. I believe you can have many different perspectives of the same thing. Imagine you were looking at a diamond. There are so many angles to look at it from, no angle shows it all.

 

I see the split self affair as an explanation, a kickoff from where you can take action, not as an excuse.

 

Understanding why the people we love are doing what we consider "bad" things, like alcoholism, gambling, infidelity, helps us let go of our obsession of their issues and concentrate on ourselves and what we need to work on.

[jennie-jennie]

But JJ, you say his marriage is good and he is happy at home. ONe doesn't have to gush and be lovey dovey 24/7 to prove they love their spouse. Didn't you say that your MM does treat his wife well? They do family stuff, outings and live life? I'm not sure how you think HIS kids are better off without their mother and father under the same roof seeing as they still get along nicely. The thing is, you really DO NOT KNOW what their dynamic is on a daily basis. Their little habits, inside jokes, how they are with the kids as a family unless you were a fly on the wall.

 

No, I do not say "his marriage is good and he is happy at home". WWIU, it is way too frequent that you misrepresent what I have said in earlier threads. I can't spend time all the time correcting you. You just have to trust me. If I say I believe his kids will be better off if he gets a divorce, then that is my opinion based on my entire knowledge of my MM. It is impossible for me to share all that knowledge with LS posters.

 

He can tell you over and over again he isn't having sex with his wife, yet he could be. Yes you trust him at his word, that's good as it keeps you happy, but wouldn't you want to know the truth? IF he did have sex, and didn't tell you, how would you react to him omitting that from you a second time?

I know the truth. Period. Discussion over.

 

Anyway, you are happy as things are now. Eventually things will change as time goes on. Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse, depending on which angle you look at it.

What comes in the future, I will handle in the future.

 

But he doesn't want a full one with you. He wants his wife and the marriage, you on the side. I can't see that changing unless his wife finds out or if you walk away. HE likes being married.. And it's funny since you hate marriage and don't believe in it..Why would divorce and give up everything for someone who doesn't believe in marriage, long term committment?

And what do you base the above on? Seeing it is not the case with my MM. You have absolutely no idea what he thinks about marriage.

 

You say for now it's one on one, but if someone else came along you would change the rules, have an open relationship..Well, what if he told you fine, go do that, but we are done..I'm going to go back home and connect more with my wife and maybe even find another OW who will only desire me. what then? would you say goodbye or give up a new found single guy who showed alot of interest in you, to hang onto your MM? I am just curious and none of my questions are meant to piss you off or anything, just saying that anything can happen..People change their minds all the time. Nothing obviously is carved in stone in life.

If I fell in love with a single man, I would end it with my MM. If I only wanted sex and amusement with the single man, I would be prepared to sacrifice that for my MM if he wouldn't want to change our agreement into an open relationship.

[jennie-jennie]

You seem to put a lot of faith in what you consider reputable therapists advice considering your mm and your relationship with him. EX........the above and the split self affairs therapist.

 

I don't put that much faith in someone else's opinion. After all justification and reasons/excuses can be found for anything if you want to find them badly enough, but that's me.

 

I research issues that come up in my life. I take what I like and leave the rest. To me it is not enough to participate on a forum, I want to hear what the people working in the field say as well. Some I discard, some I take to heart because they match what I am experiencing in life.

 

I find understanding the psychology behind a fellow human being's actions far more interesting than to just condemn them. But that's me.

[jennie-jennie]

He disagrees that she deserves honesty and love?

 

My questions about him are about his refusal to seek IC, while continuing to lie to his wife on a daily basis. It seems to me that if he were unhappy with the situation, or really bothered by the way he is treating you or his wife, he'd change it.

 

I also struggle to understand how you can respect him, knowing what he does. His behavior displays weak character, which is unattractive to me.

 

My MM still believes in his own ability to solve the situation. Until he realizes he is incapable of solving it on his own, he will not be ready for IC.

 

He did in fact the other week seek out his former philosophy teacher who has also worked with IC, but unfortunately it turned out he does not offer IC at the moment.

 

I understand the reasons behind my MM's actions, thus I can respect him. I do not agree with you that he has weak character. He is the child from the dysfunctional family who has built his whole identity around "doing the right thing". The good child. Now his world is changing. He has to redefine the foundation for his identity. That is not done in a heartbeat.

[jennie-jennie]

Is he very clearly unhappy around his kids? Do his children perceive their parents' marriage as being miserable, or happy and content?

 

I believe my MM is happy around his kids. He loves them and enjoys spending time with them, although the actual amount of time he spends at home is in fact quite limited.

 

I can't speak of how the children perceive their parents' marriage, but it is without intimacy and the communication is sparse. Don't children sense this even when they can't put words on it?

 

My MM states (which I have read is typical of MM) that he has no real home anymore. Since he does not know where his life is taking him, he feels at home nowhere.