Jennie - an unapologetic OW

[jennie-jennie]

JJ, I am so glad you started this thread for so many reasons.

 

I get it, I get it, I get it !!!

 

Thank you for standing by what you believe even when it is not popular.

 

But I do get everything you are saying and agree with you on many different levels.

 

My heart wishes you the very best!!!

 

Oh, how sweet of you! Your post makes me happy!

[jennie-jennie]

Hi, Jennie.

 

I've had a look at some info about split self affairs and I understand now how you can be so fulfilled in your R with MM and how you see your R with him as a complete R and him being M as just a problem that he has.

 

It must be very comforting to know that he is with you out of love and with his W out of duty.

 

In this regard you are different to many other OW (most perhaps?) who keep questioning what their worth is to their MM, since he remains M to someone else and who feel like they are second-best or have to compete with W due to the "message" that MM's action apparently communicate to them..

 

You just don't see it that way.

 

It took me time to get this far. This is why I say attitude and perception is so important. We can hurt ourselves by being the OW, or we can realize that that part of the relationship really has nothing to do with us. A lot of the damage we suffer is self-inflicted really.

 

I was helped greatly by reading about the split self affair. The puzzle piece I needed for my mind and heart to join forces was given me. That and all the knowledge I have since my time in Al-Anon on concentrating on living my own life and not dwelling too much on the issues of my partner.

 

I can be really whiny and grumpy, so no saint here. But all in all, I am happy with my life, and my MM is an addition which adds to the quality of my life.

 

I am lucky. My MM is a very good man. There are MM, just like single men, who do not treat their woman right. That is another matter. Just because a man is a MM doesn't mean he has a free card to treat the woman any way he wants to. He needs to meet the same standards we require from a single man.

[Ms. Red]

I am an unapologetic OW. I have been in this relationship for five years. I love my MM and am happy to have a relationship with him but sorry that he is still married.

 

I am starting this thread because I want to discuss my relationship with LS posters. Although many posters' views differ from mine, I find discussing with you helps me understand myself and my situation better.

 

It's interesting that I don't see any of the regulars that jump all over you (in other posters threads) and spout off one-liner smart ass comments/questions directed to your R, only to then accuse you of thread-jacking when you answer them. Here's their chance to post all those smart ass comments/questions, and I don't see them.

 

 

I actually am okay with being the OW for another 5 or 10 years. The thing is our relationship is really rewarding to me. It fulfills many/most of my needs.

 

Jenny, I admire your dedication to your man. You also tell your situation well. I just casually read random threads and just doing that I know much about your R and how you feel about it. I think it's good that you started this thread for those that "just don't understand" your R and "can't wrap it around their head". I actually don't have any questions for you because I get it. You are comfortable and accept the R how it is.

 

I wish you well.

[Heather1]

I'm always glad to read about someone else on here that is ok with how things are & not looking to break a family up for a full-time R.

 

Not to get too into it, but I think you're missing the purpose of al anon.

 

And sadly JJ, my MM asks me about sex w/ my H (I never ask, don't want to know & assume a regular sex life) & I lie.

[Carrot2000]

I am lucky. My MM is a very good man. There are MM, just like single men, who do not treat their woman right. That is another matter. Just because a man is a MM doesn't mean he has a free card to treat the woman any way he wants to. He needs to meet the same standards we require from a single man.

 

I'm not sure withholding intimacy from his wife qualifies as treating his woman right. From my perspective he is treating this woman any way he wants to by being dishonest, and honesty is a standard most of us would hold a single man to.

 

I know his relationship with his wife is none of your concern, but the fact that he is honest with you and lies to her really rubs me the wrong way. It just seems to cruel to me to intentionally mislead someone, misrepresent who you are and the true state of the marriage, and stay with them out of a sense of duty. You're happy where you are, he's happy with you, and his wife deserves to find her own happiness as well.

 

I wonder how MM would feel if his wife had a lover of her own? Maybe she's not interested in sex with him because she's getting it elsewhere (for her sake, I certainly hope so!).

[BB07]

I am lucky. My MM is a very good man. There are MM, just like single men, who do not treat their woman right. That is another matter. Just because a man is a MM doesn't mean he has a free card to treat the woman any way he wants to. He needs to meet the same standards we require from a single man.

 

The above is the part that people take issue with because it's a contradiction but you don't see it that way jennie.

Most people's standard of what constitutes a good man does not embody the concept of him cheating on his spouse and lying.

[OWoman]

Couldn't resist posting in answer to this! I don't know what other posters think but I haven't bothered posting a response so far, as this thread is so egotistical-a kind of "celebration of dis-honesty."

I do wonder though why JJ is so fanatical about stressing the "rightness" of her affair-perhaps she's trying to convince herself!

 

Jen was asked to start her own thread to give people the opportunity to ask her all the questions they always ask her on other people's threads, taking those threads off-topic - so that's what she's done. I don't see what's egotistical about responding politely to a polite request?

 

As for "celebrating dis-honesty", I've not seen anywhere where Jen is being dishonest. Her morals may not be the same as yours, but living according to those morals with integrity hardly makes someone dishonest.

[OWoman]

Yes, I probably have patience for men with an issue because of my history. If the rest of the man is wonderful, I can look past that and leave it to him to solve his issue.

 

This is where we differ. I don't have that level of tolerance. The same way I could not look past my brother's alcoholism, because it tainted every aspect of our relationship with dishonesty, or my xH's schizophrenia because of how it governed his behaviour, I would not be able to accept issues (or, an issue) in someone if I perceived that issue to be major and to be an obstacle in pursuing the kind of R I wanted with them, however wonderful the rest of them might be. If my mother is going to steal from me, it doesn't matter to me how much she loves my kids or how willing she might be to babysit, I still wouldn't trust her to be in my home.

 

That you are able to do look beyond their issues and accept them in a more fundamental way demonstrates far greater levels of acceptance than I could ever muster!

[Rose1977]

JJ,

 

I am not being judgemental or rude, just asking an honest question, as I have never had experience as an OW, but have experience as a BGF. While I do not agree with your choice to be with a married man, I am far from perfect and am in no place to judge you. My only experience with cheating has been on the receiving end and it nearly destroyed me. I ended up in the hospital with a ridiculous amount of physical symptoms associated with the emotional pain I was going through. I went through a long period of depression. As you can see from my threads, my BF and I are working through it and he has made a lot of changes. I don't think he truly understood the damages he had done to me until my therapist told him straight out that he considered the way he had treated me emotionally abusive and told him about the psychological damages to my self-esteem etc... that resulted from his cheating.

 

Anyway, what I am interested to know is, if your MM's wife were to find out about your A and become seriously ill/depressed b/c of the A would you feel any guilt at that point? Honestly, I was terrified of the OW in my BF's cheating episodes to find out how bad off I was b/c I felt like they would think they "won". Weird, I know, but it was a huge concern of mine. Just wondering if her feelings ever cross your mind. I really don't mean for that to sound rude, it's an honest question, and no matter what your response I assure you I am not here to insult you.

[jennie-jennie]

I'm always glad to read about someone else on here that is ok with how things are & not looking to break a family up for a full-time R.

 

Not to get too into it, but I think you're missing the purpose of al anon.

 

And sadly JJ, my MM asks me about sex w/ my H (I never ask, don't want to know & assume a regular sex life) & I lie.

 

I do want a full time relationship with my MM. As I see it, his kids would be better off with a father who showed them that his happiness is important too. In that way they would know to value their happiness when they are adults and avoid falling into the same trap of "doing the right thing". As it is now, he is teaching them to become WS, BS and OP. So I have no problem with "breaking up" his family.

 

Yet I am okay with the situation as it is now as well. You are right about that.

 

About Al-Anon, no, I don't think I am missing the purpose of it. The purpose is to let go of your obsession of the alcoholic's drinking and to concentrate on yourself and your own life. It is up to you as the partner of the alcoholic whether you want to stay with him/her or not, independent of whether he/she continues to drink or not.

 

I went to Al-Anon for many years, so I know their message well. Perhaps you interpret their program differently, I don't know, but this is how I understood it.

 

As far as lying about sex, my MM really has no way of knowing either whether I have sex with others. It is about trust. Adding up the knowledge you have of the other person and deciding whether you trust him/her or not.

 

Hope all is well with you, Heather!

[jennie-jennie]

It's interesting that I don't see any of the regulars that jump all over you (in other posters threads) and spout off one-liner smart ass comments/questions directed to your R, only to then accuse you of thread-jacking when you answer them. Here's their chance to post all those smart ass comments/questions, and I don't see them.

 

I noticed that too!

 

Jenny, I admire your dedication to your man. You also tell your situation well. I just casually read random threads and just doing that I know much about your R and how you feel about it. I think it's good that you started this thread for those that "just don't understand" your R and "can't wrap it around their head". I actually don't have any questions for you because I get it. You are comfortable and accept the R how it is.

 

I wish you well.

 

Thank you, Ms. Red! I always enjoy your input!

[hoping2heal]

I actually am okay with being the OW for another 5 or 10 years. The thing is our relationship is really rewarding to me. It fulfills many/most of my needs.

 

I don't see myself ending our relationship. What might happen is that I will want to change it into an open relationship. For now we have agreed on mutual exclusivity, which means I don't date other men and he isn't intimate with his wife.

 

If you want to understand my MM's mindset, I suggest you read up on the split self affair. It describes how a man like my MM is torn between his emotional self and his wish to do the right thing. His emotional self which he regained contact with through the relationship with the OW.

 

I did take a look at the split self affair. From what I gather it is a title given to those who "want" to do the right thing but don't actually do the right thing. Do you know wether or not this term is recognized as a psychological diagnosis or more of a pop psychology thing? It just seems that a split self affair, is no different from anyone else who leads a double life and compartmentalizes because it goes against what their value system registers as being "right". There are many people and situations that would fall under the category of "split self affair" minus the affair part. That is why I am wondering if it is rather an actual diagnosis of something more - and not so much about being a "split self affair". In which case it is more about doing something that is wrong, but wishing you were the type of person who did the right thing. When your actions and values do not line up.

 

I am really not sure I agree with the way that "split self affair" seems to almost make excuses for a MM's bad behavior and again that is not at all exclusive to people in affairs. There are many people who make lifestyle choices each and every day to do things that go against their value system.

 

Would you agree with this? Or do you see it differently?

[whichwayisup]

It's interesting that I don't see any of the regulars that jump all over you (in other posters threads) and spout off one-liner smart ass comments/questions directed to your R, only to then accuse you of thread-jacking when you answer them. Here's their chance to post all those smart ass comments/questions, and I don't see them.

I haven't been on LS much this weekend, been busy getting ready for Christmas, and also spending time with family so I haven't really had a chance to read JJ's thread until now. Don't assume the worst..Just because the regulars haven't posted on JJ's thread doesn't mean they won't. People get busy on weekends, even more so considering the time of year.

 

This thread is a good idea, it'll help JJ from being discussed so much in other people's threads.

 

JJ, Rose1977's post to you is very interesting..I hope you respond to her.

 

As I see it, his kids would be better off with a father who showed them that his happiness is important too. In that way they would know to value their happiness when they are adults and avoid falling into the same trap of "doing the right thing". As it is now, he is teaching them to become WS, BS and OP. So I have no problem with "breaking up" his family.

 

But JJ, you say his marriage is good and he is happy at home. ONe doesn't have to gush and be lovey dovey 24/7 to prove they love their spouse. Didn't you say that your MM does treat his wife well? They do family stuff, outings and live life? I'm not sure how you think HIS kids are better off without their mother and father under the same roof seeing as they still get along nicely. The thing is, you really DO NOT KNOW what their dynamic is on a daily basis. Their little habits, inside jokes, how they are with the kids as a family unless you were a fly on the wall.

 

He can tell you over and over again he isn't having sex with his wife, yet he could be. Yes you trust him at his word, that's good as it keeps you happy, but wouldn't you want to know the truth? IF he did have sex, and didn't tell you, how would you react to him omitting that from you a second time?

 

Anyway, you are happy as things are now. Eventually things will change as time goes on. Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse, depending on which angle you look at it.

 

I do want a full time relationship with my MM

 

But he doesn't want a full one with you. He wants his wife and the marriage, you on the side. I can't see that changing unless his wife finds out or if you walk away. HE likes being married.. And it's funny since you hate marriage and don't believe in it..Why would divorce and give up everything for someone who doesn't believe in marriage, long term committment? You say for now it's one on one, but if someone else came along you would change the rules, have an open relationship..Well, what if he told you fine, go do that, but we are done..I'm going to go back home and connect more with my wife and maybe even find another OW who will only desire me. what then? would you say goodbye or give up a new found single guy who showed alot of interest in you, to hang onto your MM? I am just curious and none of my questions are meant to piss you off or anything, just saying that anything can happen..People change their minds all the time. Nothing obviously is carved in stone in life.

[jennie-jennie]

Couldn't resist posting in answer to this! I don't know what other posters think but I haven't bothered posting a response so far, as this thread is so egotistical-a kind of "celebration of dis-honesty."

I do wonder though why JJ is so fanatical about stressing the "rightness" of her affair-perhaps she's trying to convince herself!

 

Or could it be - that's how I see it.

[jennie-jennie]

The above is the part that people take issue with because it's a contradiction but you don't see it that way jennie.

Most people's standard of what constitutes a good man does not embody the concept of him cheating on his spouse and lying.

 

I happen to agree with therapist Mira Kirshenbaum on this one. As the title of her book says "When Good People Have Affairs".

[jennie-jennie]

I'm not sure withholding intimacy from his wife qualifies as treating his woman right. From my perspective he is treating this woman any way he wants to by being dishonest, and honesty is a standard most of us would hold a single man to.

 

I know his relationship with his wife is none of your concern, but the fact that he is honest with you and lies to her really rubs me the wrong way. It just seems to cruel to me to intentionally mislead someone, misrepresent who you are and the true state of the marriage, and stay with them out of a sense of duty. You're happy where you are, he's happy with you, and his wife deserves to find her own happiness as well.

 

I wonder how MM would feel if his wife had a lover of her own? Maybe she's not interested in sex with him because she's getting it elsewhere (for her sake, I certainly hope so!).

 

I understand what you are saying, and actually agree with it. My post though was about whether the MM treats his OW right, not about the wife.

 

It's like my MM says, he has a woman and a wife. He is jealous of me, but not of his wife. He believes (but understands he might be wrong) that he would not mind if she found another man.

 

I have tried to make him see that his wife would be better of without him, that she deserves the same kind of love that we share, but I can't get through to him in this aspect.

[BB07]

I happen to agree with therapist Mira Kirshenbaum on this one. As the title of her book says "When Good People Have Affairs".

 

You seem to put a lot of faith in what you consider reputable therapists advice considering your mm and your relationship with him. EX........the above and the split self affairs therapist.

 

I don't put that much faith in someone else's opinion. After all justification and reasons/excuses can be found for anything if you want to find them badly enough, but that's me.

[xxoo]

I have tried to make him see that his wife would be better of without him, that she deserves the same kind of love that we share, but I can't get through to him in this aspect.

 

He disagrees that she deserves honesty and love?

 

My questions about him are about his refusal to seek IC, while continuing to lie to his wife on a daily basis. It seems to me that if he were unhappy with the situation, or really bothered by the way he is treating you or his wife, he'd change it.

 

I also struggle to understand how you can respect him, knowing what he does. His behavior displays weak character, which is unattractive to me.

[bentnotbroken]

It's interesting that I don't see any of the regulars that jump all over you (in other posters threads) and spout off one-liner smart ass comments/questions directed to your R, only to then accuse you of thread-jacking when you answer them. Here's their chance to post all those smart ass comments/questions, and I don't see them.

 

 

 

 

Jenny, I admire your dedication to your man. You also tell your situation well. I just casually read random threads and just doing that I know much about your R and how you feel about it. I think it's good that you started this thread for those that "just don't understand" your R and "can't wrap it around their head". I actually don't have any questions for you because I get it. You are comfortable and accept the R how it is.

 

I wish you well.

 

I personally think JJ and her split up dude get way to much banter but if he is going to split he needs to get on with it and give his wife a life. Maybe the Lord will rescue her soon one way ....or the other. Maybe the later she will be well taken care of for life and won't ever have to be treated that way again.

[jennie-jennie]

This is where we differ. I don't have that level of tolerance. The same way I could not look past my brother's alcoholism, because it tainted every aspect of our relationship with dishonesty, or my xH's schizophrenia because of how it governed his behaviour, I would not be able to accept issues (or, an issue) in someone if I perceived that issue to be major and to be an obstacle in pursuing the kind of R I wanted with them, however wonderful the rest of them might be. If my mother is going to steal from me, it doesn't matter to me how much she loves my kids or how willing she might be to babysit, I still wouldn't trust her to be in my home.

 

That you are able to do look beyond their issues and accept them in a more fundamental way demonstrates far greater levels of acceptance than I could ever muster!

 

My first long term SO was a wonderful young boy. He was 15 when we met, I was 16, and we stayed together for five years. He was so full of life, it was a joy to be around him. Unfortunately, as happens to some young adults, he eventually fell ill with schizophrenia. I saw this wonderful boy change before my eyes beyond recognition. When I looked into his eyes he wasn't there.

 

I had to break up with him. For the sake of my own sanity.

[jennie-jennie]

JJ,

 

I am not being judgemental or rude, just asking an honest question, as I have never had experience as an OW, but have experience as a BGF. While I do not agree with your choice to be with a married man, I am far from perfect and am in no place to judge you. My only experience with cheating has been on the receiving end and it nearly destroyed me. I ended up in the hospital with a ridiculous amount of physical symptoms associated with the emotional pain I was going through. I went through a long period of depression. As you can see from my threads, my BF and I are working through it and he has made a lot of changes. I don't think he truly understood the damages he had done to me until my therapist told him straight out that he considered the way he had treated me emotionally abusive and told him about the psychological damages to my self-esteem etc... that resulted from his cheating.

 

Anyway, what I am interested to know is, if your MM's wife were to find out about your A and become seriously ill/depressed b/c of the A would you feel any guilt at that point? Honestly, I was terrified of the OW in my BF's cheating episodes to find out how bad off I was b/c I felt like they would think they "won". Weird, I know, but it was a huge concern of mine. Just wondering if her feelings ever cross your mind. I really don't mean for that to sound rude, it's an honest question, and no matter what your response I assure you I am not here to insult you.

 

Oh, Rose, I am so sorry for what you had to go through. I too have been the BS and know the pain, although for you it seems to have been way worse than it was for me. And yet to me too it was devastating, for a while I lost my desire to live.

 

Both my MM and I were in relationships when we reconnected. I played with an open deck to my SO from the start. He agreed to stay with me although he knew of my MM, so for a year or so I had two parallel relationships. Then I ended it with my SO, to his dismay.

 

I could never do what my MM is doing. Never. But it is his relationship, his responsibility. Although I can sympathize with his wife, there is nothing I can do to prevent her being hurt. I can not sacrifice my own relationship for a relationship that is dying in my eyes.

 

Any guilt is on my MM's shoulders. He is the one married to her. I wish he would handle his situation differently, but it is his life, not mine.

 

Thank you for asking your question with such care. I hope my answer makes some kind of sense to you.

[hoping2heal]

JJ, You mentioned in another thread something along the lines of, certain MM being selfless and sacrificing what they want most. Is this how you see your MM?

 

A selfless man would never have an A to begin with. A selfless man sacrificing his "own happiness" would stay in his M and not lie to his partner or his children on a near daily basis.A selfless man would never leave a an OW hanging on the line for five years either. No one put a gun to your head this is true, but what other choice did you have to be with this man then to grapple at the scraps thrown your way?

 

I am not sure what is selfless at all about his act. Is it because he is not with you, is that what makes him selfless? This may only be my opinion but I feel that any man who can find it in himself to keep a woman stuck in a marriage who has birthed six of his children, and been a loyal wife and mother and lie to her and take advantage of her trust and exploit it - could certainly find it within himself to leave his M. Selfless would be ending the M, and letting his wife go and find someone else instead of keeping her in it because "he" doesn't want to have to feel guilty or any of the other reasons why this arrangement works out for him.

 

He also has met your children. Who do they think he is? Again, he has kept you hanging on the line for 5 years. A selfless man would let you go, because he couldn't give you what you deserve. A man who can share life with you, instead of keep you a hidden secret from what should be the biggest parts of his life - his children. The excuses for why he does not do that are not relevant. Plenty of people not even having A's end their marriage and move on when the M is no longer working out.

 

 

 

It is clear from what you have shared that you have seen more than your fair share of pain and suffering as a result of your former relationships. Which also explains why you would cling so tightly to a situation like this. You have an incredible tolerance based on your past experiences and that is not uncommon.

[xxoo]

I understand what you are saying, and actually agree with it. My post though was about whether the MM treats his OW right, not about the wife.

 

But he betrayed you, too....

[OWoman]

There are different ways of expressing dishonesty. Perhaps some would not know what "dishonest" is.

 

It would certainly appear so, from the unwarranted accusations.

[KarmasTestDummy]

My question to you is wondering, to be as satisfied and fulfilled as you are, how much of mm do you get? Does he Work away from home and spend his days and nights with you as if you had him in whole or do you live by a schedule for communication and time together as many oW must. If there was a piece of my mm that bothered me the most and that would make me undeniably say that I don't think I'd allow myself to be in this same place 5 years from now, it is the fact that he has a whole other life that I can't be apart of. A home, children, extended family, etc. I get a large piece of his life and time, but the piece that matters to me is still out of my reach. I am unapologetic in the sense that I love him whole heartedly, that I have no regret, and that I have no desire to walk away, but one day, yes one day, I know I will expect or demand more and will be at a crossroads of making that choice to walk if I need to.