Jennie - an unapologetic OW

[jennie-jennie]

I am an unapologetic OW. I have been in this relationship for five years. I love my MM and am happy to have a relationship with him but sorry that he is still married.

 

I am starting this thread because I want to discuss my relationship with LS posters. Although many posters' views differ from mine, I find discussing with you helps me understand myself and my situation better.

[myname]

Hi Jennie

 

I've got a question.

 

How do you deal with the conflicting feelings of loving him and enjoying the relationship but not liking that he's married?

 

I ask because this was something I found hugely difficult. I would find myself getting so angry with him and trying to push towards an outcome just to have an outcome so it was often that I was trying to finish things with him.

 

How are things arranged and agreed between you two that stops the doubts and questioning over what else is going on his life and where you stand, and his own doubts around whether you will suddenly decide enoughs enough and you're leaving?

 

Hope my questions make sense, thanks.

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie, I do have a question but there was never really an appropriate time to ask you: Do his children know about you? You've stated multiple times your kids are aware, and from my understanding the majority of his kids are adults (correct me if I am wrong). So I have been curious if they are aware of your existence?

 

Of course my MM's children are not aware of our relationship. That would be an incredible burden to ask them to bear when their mother is not aware of our relationship. He has children in both college, high school and grade school.

[jennie-jennie]

Hi Jennie

 

I've got a question.

 

How do you deal with the conflicting feelings of loving him and enjoying the relationship but not liking that he's married?

 

I ask because this was something I found hugely difficult. I would find myself getting so angry with him and trying to push towards an outcome just to have an outcome so it was often that I was trying to finish things with him.

 

I have my moments when I am grumpy, when I go on about the fact that he is married, feel depressed that nothing happens, and so on. I show him this as I do not hide anything from him.

 

Reading about men like him (the split self affair) helped me a lot in understanding him. It helped me accept the situation. Understanding it was issues he had, nothing to do with me really.

 

How are things arranged and agreed between you two that stops the doubts and questioning over what else is going on his life and where you stand, and his own doubts around whether you will suddenly decide enoughs enough and you're leaving?

 

Hope my questions make sense, thanks.

 

I have full confidence in that I am my MM's primary and only love object, so I do not question what else is going on in his life. We also have so frequent contact that I usually know what is happening in his life. But regardless, I just don't have any doubts or worries about his life at home. Our bond is so strong it makes me trust there is nothing to worry about.

 

I know my MM does worry a bit that I will one day up and leave him. He knows I have a history of that, that if a man does not satisfy my needs I one day will have had enough. I am very loyal, and it usually takes many years (5 and 25 so far), but if my needs are not fulfilled one day I will leave. There is nothing he can do about it though. As long as he is not ready to leave his marriage, he is not going to.

[OWoman]

Not sure what happened to the other thread, where someone asked:

 

What does it say to you that he feels IC is not something he needs or desires right now?

 

and I responded:

This was something I also wanted to follow up on. Jen, given how well-read you are on psychological matters, would you be completely OK going into an exclusive R with him (ie, no BW on the scene) if he wasn't willing to commit to IC, or would you feel that you were compromising? What I'm meaning is, would his BW vanishing from the scene be the "magic bullet" to transform your R into the R you'd prefer with him - or would that merely be a necessary but not sufficient condition, requiring further action (like his committing to IC) to become the R you'd ultimately like with him?

 

I don't want to imply that there's a right or wrong answer on this - people are all different, and what they want, and what they're prepared to accept, are all subject to very different priorities and circumstances. But I'm thinking of some of my friends who were just happy once the D was through, to have their MM / MW "all to themselves" that they saw things like IC as minor issues to be addressed along the way as part of the R process; whereas for me, it was part of the "work" he had to do upfront (along with moving out, the D, etc) to match the "work" I was having to do in order to demonstrate a commitment to prioritising our being together. I would not have M my H had he not had IC. I would have seen that as evasive, half-arsed and looking for a soft landing. I needed him to prove - to himself as much as to me or anyone else - that he was serious about making the changes he was facing. I wasn't about to be anyone's soft landing - I wanted a man, not a project.

 

I'm just curious about your position on that. Feel free not to answer if you prefer not to.

[jennie-jennie]

Not sure what happened to the other thread, where someone asked:

 

 

 

and I responded:

 

I see my MM's behavior as being that of one from a dysfunctional family. I am myself from a dysfunctional family, my exSOs were also. I know this is something you continually have to work with throughout life. It's a process. I can see my MM struggling with this, he has changed so much during our time together.

 

Just like it says in the books about split self affairs, he believes he can fix things himself. Being I have been a member of Al-Anon for so long, I know there is nothing I can do to force him to look for outside help.

 

My MM and I talked about this the other day. That I see the relationship for what it is, the issues are a part I don't like, but they aren't the relationship.

 

This is difficult to explain. I think you need to understand that I am very influenced of having been the SO of an alcoholic and gambler for so long. I see my MM's desire "to do the right thing" the same way as I saw the alcoholism and the gambling. It is an issue my MM has. I accept it as something he has to work on, and he has to work on it in his own pace.

 

So no, no conditions, but life and partnership requires constant and continuous work of us all.

[OWoman]

I accept it as something he has to work on, and he has to work on it in his own pace.

 

So no, no conditions, but life and partnership requires constant and continuous work of us all.

 

You are a lot more tolerant than I am! I'm far too impatient and far too selfish for that - respect!

[woinlove]

Of course my MM's children are not aware of our relationship. That would be an incredible burden to ask them to bear when their mother is not aware of our relationship. He has children in both college, high school and grade school.

 

Well, good for both of you on this particular point. I agree about the burden. You say "Of course..." but it is amazing how poorly some people behave during affairs, even with their own children, so kudos to you on this point.

[OWoman]

Well, good for both of you on this particular point. I agree about the burden. You say "Of course..." but it is amazing how poorly some people behave during affairs, even with their own children, so kudos to you on this point.

 

When my H and I decided we wanted to be together, he sat down with his kids (teens) and explained the situation to them. They were cool with it, and pleased to have been consulted and treated maturely. They didn't see it as a burden. He answered their questions, gave them my email addy & cell number, and we chatted and got to know each other a little in the run up to the split. During family therapy, they told him several times how pleased they were that he had spoken to them about it, before it happened, so that they were informed and prepared and knew what was going on.

 

I realise that all situations are different, and no OSFA, but to assume in a blanket fashion that it's a burden on the kids is also mistaken. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's a good thing.

[woinlove]

When my H and I decided we wanted to be together, he sat down with his kids (teens) and explained the situation to them. They were cool with it, and pleased to have been consulted and treated maturely. They didn't see it as a burden. He answered their questions, gave them my email addy & cell number, and we chatted and got to know each other a little in the run up to the split. During family therapy, they told him several times how pleased they were that he had spoken to them about it, before it happened, so that they were informed and prepared and knew what was going on.

 

I realise that all situations are different, and no OSFA, but to assume in a blanket fashion that it's a burden on the kids is also mistaken. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's a good thing.

 

I was referring to JJ's situation of the burden it would be to have the children in on an important secret to be kept from their mother. What you describe doesn't sound like explaining a secret to the children but explaining a change, which presumably their mother knew about. Unless I misunderstand.

[OWoman]

I was referring to JJ's situation of the burden it would be to have the children in on an important secret to be kept from their mother. What you describe doesn't sound like explaining a secret to the children but explaining a change, which presumably their mother knew about. Unless I misunderstand.

 

She didn't, at that stage.

[jennie-jennie]

I was referring to JJ's situation of the burden it would be to have the children in on an important secret to be kept from their mother. What you describe doesn't sound like explaining a secret to the children but explaining a change, which presumably their mother knew about. Unless I misunderstand.

 

She didn't, at that stage.

 

It is still a difference when a change has been decided upon and it is only a question of time before the BS will be informed compared to an ongoing hidden extramarital affair.

[jennie-jennie]

Well, good for both of you on this particular point. I agree about the burden. You say "Of course..." but it is amazing how poorly some people behave during affairs, even with their own children, so kudos to you on this point.

 

Thanks, nice to get some praise for a change.

[jennie-jennie]

Where do you think your affair will be 5 years from now?

 

Probably about the same as where it is now as relationship concerned. What will be different in 5 years for sure is that my children will all be grown up, so I will be free to spend much more time with my MM, perhaps even be living at least part of the year in his city.

 

My MM is much more certain than I am that the situation at hand will not persist. He sees a change in the next couple of years. Me - I hope so, but don't really believe it.

[jennie-jennie]

Probably about the same as where it is now as relationship concerned. What will be different in 5 years for sure is that my children will all be grown up, so I will be free to spend much more time with my MM, perhaps even be living at least part of the year in his city.

 

My MM is much more certain than I am that the situation at hand will not persist. He sees a change in the next couple of years. Me - I hope so, but don't really believe it.

 

The split self affair requires a minimum of 2 years of IC, and my MM has not even started on that road yet.

[hoping2heal]

JJ - are you okay with being an OW for another 5 years? Another 10?

 

It has already been five years and in order for their to be change there has to be an incentive for that. Can we agree on that? Your MM already knows how this affects you. You have been at this for 5 years now. Depsite that, his loyalties appear to be to his wife. He knows you are hurting but he doesn't want to hurt her (in his words) so he will not tell her about the affair. I don't see how or when that is going to change. If it's an issue of his children, he still has them in grade school so that is going to be another what? decade? Until they are grown.

 

Who really knows what could even happen in that time. There are many couples, who are not even in affairs - and they end the marriage despite having children - including young children - because the marriage is not working for them. Why does he not just end the marriage? He wouldn't need to tell her that there is a third party involved and "hurt her".

[jennie-jennie]

JJ - are you okay with being an OW for another 5 years? Another 10?

 

It has already been five years and in order for their to be change there has to be an incentive for that. Can we agree on that? Your MM already knows how this affects you. You have been at this for 5 years now. Depsite that, his loyalties appear to be to his wife. He knows you are hurting but he doesn't want to hurt her (in his words) so he will not tell her about the affair. I don't see how or when that is going to change. If it's an issue of his children, he still has them in grade school so that is going to be another what? decade? Until they are grown.

 

Who really knows what could even happen in that time. There are many couples, who are not even in affairs - and they end the marriage despite having children - including young children - because the marriage is not working for them. Why does he not just end the marriage? He wouldn't need to tell her that there is a third party involved and "hurt her".

 

I actually am okay with being the OW for another 5 or 10 years. The thing is our relationship is really rewarding to me. It fulfills many/most of my needs.

 

I don't see myself ending our relationship. What might happen is that I will want to change it into an open relationship. For now we have agreed on mutual exclusivity, which means I don't date other men and he isn't intimate with his wife.

 

If you want to understand my MM's mindset, I suggest you read up on the split self affair. It describes how a man like my MM is torn between his emotional self and his wish to do the right thing. His emotional self which he regained contact with through the relationship with the OW.

[jennie-jennie]

There is the possibility too that I might meet a single man. I don't feel obliged to turn down an opportunity considering my MM is still married, I just don't go chasing for opportunities. If a man caught my interest, I would be honest about it to my MM, and change our agreement.

[hoping2heal]

There is the possibility too that I might meet a single man. I don't feel obliged to turn down an opportunity considering my MM is still married, I just don't go chasing for opportunities. If a man caught my interest, I would be honest about it to my MM, and change our agreement.

 

 

Based on your response, are you saying that for you, the options are to meet someone else (on the basis someone else catches your interest) or stay the OW indefinately?

 

Also, knowing what you know now - would you still have gotten into this affair 5 years ago?

 

Would you encourage other OW/OM to stay in their Rs with their MM/MW counterparts long term as you have?

[Hazyhead]

This is difficult to explain. I think you need to understand that I am very influenced of having been the SO of an alcoholic and gambler for so long. I see my MM's desire "to do the right thing" the same way as I saw the alcoholism and the gambling. It is an issue my MM has. I accept it as something he has to work on, and he has to work on it in his own pace.

 

This makes sense now, Jennie. I'm sorry if I've always appeared to judge you, but I've never been able to get my head around why you stay, I mean, it's not like you're not a desirable woman. I had a pretty sheltered childhood and, I guess, as a result have a zero tolerance for painful relationships; I struggle to balance the good against the bad as to me, the bad becomes too much to handle and I walk away. I'm not a person with a lot of patience, if I'm honest, and I admire you for sticking by the one you love, regardless that I think it's bad for you and will only cause you pain in the future.

 

There is the possibility too that I might meet a single man. I don't feel obliged to turn down an opportunity considering my MM is still married, I just don't go chasing for opportunities. If a man caught my interest, I would be honest about it to my MM, and change our agreement.

 

I don't mean to wish you trauma in your current relationship, but I really wish this for you, Jennie. You deserve a relationship in which you are completely and utterly fulfilled.

[Ellin]

Hi, Jennie.

 

I've had a look at some info about split self affairs and I understand now how you can be so fulfilled in your R with MM and how you see your R with him as a complete R and him being M as just a problem that he has.

 

It must be very comforting to know that he is with you out of love and with his W out of duty.

 

In this regard you are different to many other OW (most perhaps?) who keep questioning what their worth is to their MM, since he remains M to someone else and who feel like they are second-best or have to compete with W due to the "message" that MM's action apparently communicate to them..

 

You just don't see it that way.

[jennie-jennie]

Based on your response, are you saying that for you, the options are to meet someone else (on the basis someone else catches your interest) or stay the OW indefinately?

 

Unless I for some reason get really fed up with my MM, yes. If he starts to move backwards instead of forwards, I might have had enough of him.

 

Also, knowing what you know now - would you still have gotten into this affair 5 years ago?

 

I know something now I didn't know five years ago, that some men can truly love you and yet not be able to leave their marriage. Because of that knowledge I will be wary of any MM in the future.

 

Now with my MM, ours was a rekindled relationship. The love was already there. The time to stop such a relationship is before you fall in love. No, I would never want to miss all the wonderful experiences we have had together, all the intimacy, all the bonding. He has changed my life to the better, and I have changed his.

 

Would you encourage other OW/OM to stay in their Rs with their MM/MW counterparts long term as you have?

 

I would support an OW who wants to stay and I would support an OW who wants to leave. It differs from situation to situation. It depends on the characteristics of the MM, of the characteristics of the relationship, of whether the positives outweigh the negatives, if you want children, if you want to get married and so on. There are so many factors at play. The only one who can make the decision whether to stay or go is the OW in question herself. It would be presumptuous of me to believe I had the answer.

 

For me, I wanted and want a relationship with this man. The man is more important to me than the character of the relationship. I have come to terms with being the OW, for others it might be a struggle they can never solve.

[jennie-jennie]

This makes sense now, Jennie. I'm sorry if I've always appeared to judge you, but I've never been able to get my head around why you stay, I mean, it's not like you're not a desirable woman. I had a pretty sheltered childhood and, I guess, as a result have a zero tolerance for painful relationships; I struggle to balance the good against the bad as to me, the bad becomes too much to handle and I walk away. I'm not a person with a lot of patience, if I'm honest, and I admire you for sticking by the one you love, regardless that I think it's bad for you and will only cause you pain in the future.

 

 

 

I don't mean to wish you trauma in your current relationship, but I really wish this for you, Jennie. You deserve a relationship in which you are completely and utterly fulfilled.

 

Thanks, Hazy, that was a sweet post. It made me smile.

 

Yes, I probably have patience for men with an issue because of my history. If the rest of the man is wonderful, I can look past that and leave it to him to solve his issue.

[2themoon&back]

JJ, I am so glad you started this thread for so many reasons.

 

I get it, I get it, I get it !!!

 

Thank you for standing by what you believe even when it is not popular.

 

But I do get everything you are saying and agree with you on many different levels.

 

My heart wishes you the very best!!!

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie,

 

It wasn't that long ago when MM did have sex with his W though. I know he disclosed that to you, but considering how upset you got with it, don't you think with his avoidance issues, that it made it that much more likely that he won't tell you when it happens in the future? I know you've said he considers you to be his "tiger" or something along those lines, but a man that chooses to keep his M and an OW long term is not exactly exhibiting that he's prepared to handle conflict well.

 

Considering that the terms of your R are that you are commited to him exclusively and he agrees not to sleep with his W, how does that breach of agreement really affect you? It seemed to me that you somewhat swept it under the rug at the time, and it's the only promise he's made to you that gave you something the W didn't have.

 

My MM doesn't have a problem with confronting me with the truth. It is interesting how he can treat his wife so differently from how he treats me.

 

Now why is this? I believe the basis of these two relationships differ widely. Ours is based on brutal honesty, theirs is based on doing the right thing.

 

There are parts of himself my MM never shared with anyone before our relationship, parts that his wife has never seen. He wants her to perceive him as the good guy, the perfect husband and father. He obviously has never been able to project anything like that to me.

 

Early on in our relationship I shared with him the hardships of my life. This openness made him feel safe with me, safe to show himself as he truly is, for good or for bad. And... he already had a wife. He was looking for something more, someone to be completely honest with.

 

We had it out about the sex. From the beginning our agreement of exclusivity did exclude if his wife made a pass at him. Subsequently I told him I wanted to change this, that it was not okay with me. Truth is he never agreed he accepted that change of conditions. He didn't reject it, but neither did he agree to it. Now he has. We have discussed thoroughly what we expect of each other, so nothing is unclear to either of us any longer.

 

I think you need to understand what kind of relationship we have. I have been tempted myself to have sex with my ex, or go and look for men on dating sites. But I know that would change the dynamics of our relationship, something would be lost forever if I was dishonest or unfaithful to my MM. The same I believe is true for him. We do not want to risk what we have. My MM knows, because of my character and history, he would lose much more by being dishonest to me than by telling me the truth if he had sex once again with his wife.

 

He did have a sex life with his wife for the first three and a half years of our relationship. He had no problem telling me the truth then. I would ask him once in a while, and he would admit it, although I didn't like it.

 

I asked him once why he had no problem hurting me when he has hurting his wife. He asked me if I wanted him to withhold the truth and not hurt me. I said no. That is our agreement, we are honest even when it hurts.