wtf?

[northern_sky]

Well, do you have anything to say in response to my points?

 

My perspective on your behavior is 100% gleaned from what you, yourself post about yourself, and there is an avalanche of it. I have not "spun" anything. I am sitting here, having taken in all the stuff you've written about J, considered stuff you wrote about situations with many other guys, and I arrived at my conclusions.

 

It's not that I dislike you, have some pre-conceived notions about you, or have been swayed by what others think. My opinions about you, your behavior patterns and motivation are absolutely framed only by what YOU post about YOU.

 

Right, and you're a perfect human aggregator and interpreter of information. Unlike most people, nothing passes through your system without attaining some personal bias.

 

You're forgetting the human element here, namely YOU. Your opinions are not only framed by what I do, they pass through a whole host of your own personal biases. This is true for everyone, but some people are more able to be objective and emotionally detached when they give advice than others. Yet even those people have their subjective moments.

 

But the fact that you're unwilling to admit you may ever be vulnerable to bias in your judgment, as if you possess almost superhuman objectivity, tarnishes your credibility.

[Surrealist]

Right, and you're a perfect human aggregator and interpreter of information. Unlike most people, nothing passes through your system without attaining some personal bias.

 

You're forgetting the human element here, namely YOU. Your opinions are not only framed by what I do, they pass through a whole host of your own personal biases. This is true for everyone, but some people are more able to be objective and emotionally detached when they give advice than others. Yet even those people have their subjective moments.

 

But the fact that you're unwilling to admit you may ever be vulnerable to bias in your judgment, as if you possess almost superhuman objectivity, tarnishes your credibility.

 

 

Hahahaha come on bro, not everyone who has an opinion that disagrees with you is being subjective, any more or less than someone who has an opinion that agrees with you is being objective. Like really bro, someone who disagrees with you may be being more objective than the person who is agrees with you.

[Yer_Blues]

He's offering his opinion and read on the situation. You are discussing interpersonal relationships on an interpersonal relationships forum. What results may be interpersonal, and colored heavily by biases and opinions. What is the point of posting here if you just want people to only take your point of view and accept it?

 

Whether you actually are or know it, your tone is snarky as hell. Like I wouldn't want to be under one roof with you right now just by reading what you are posting on this forum...

[Mme. Chaucer]

Right, and you're a perfect human aggregator and interpreter of information. Unlike most people, nothing passes through your system without attaining some personal bias.

 

You're forgetting the human element here, namely YOU. Your opinions are not only framed by what I do, they pass through a whole host of your own personal biases. This is true for everyone, but some people are more able to be objective and emotionally detached when they give advice than others. Yet even those people have their subjective moments.

 

But the fact that you're unwilling to admit you may ever be vulnerable to bias in your judgment, as if you possess almost superhuman objectivity, tarnishes your credibility.

 

Why do you say that I am unwilling to admit that I may be vulnerable to bias? Of course I am. The dangers of that are sparse here, though. I don't see you, your body language, how you present yourself, I don't hear your voice, check out what kind of watch you wear, what book you're reading, what political bumper sticker you have on whatever type of car you drive, or maybe you don't drive; none of that's available. All I have to go on are the words you've written.

 

If I get interested in a poster or one of their stories, I will read their past posts. If there are patterns, they'll show up. I will think about a person's past patterns when considering their current dilemma, naturally.

 

I don't see how my credibility can be tarnished; I have not asked to be believed. I have posted my impressions of your situation based upon your own many words written about a myriad of situations. As I have said before, just ignore me if you prefer.

[northern_sky]

You offer what's know in fiction writing as an unreliable narrative voice. We do get to know a lot about you, but it's necessary to read between the lines.

 

Sure, I have been at times inconsistent in my take on J, but that's not uncommon when it comes to heartache. I probably do do that more than most people. Still, "reading between the lines" his selfishness and issues are pretty apparent.

 

These are descriptors he has used about himself and according to him, have been leveled against him many, many times. Also, according to him most of what I've said about him has been "true" and "insightful," so if anything, my characterization of him is dead on.

 

I'd make the same point about you. Pretty much everything you say comes with a hefty dose of subtext attached.

[northern_sky]

Hahahaha come on bro, not everyone who has an opinion that disagrees with you is being subjective, any more or less than someone who has an opinion that agrees with you is being objective. Like really bro, someone who disagrees with you may be being more objective than the person who is agrees with you.

 

It's not the fact that this poster disagrees with me. It's the fact that she's 100% consistent in finding a way of criticizing me in every post she makes, no matter the situation.

[northern_sky]

The dangers of that are sparse here, though. I don't see you, your body language, how you present yourself, I don't hear your voice, check out what kind of watch you wear, what book you're reading, what political bumper sticker you have on whatever type of car you drive, or maybe you don't drive; none of that's available. All I have to go on are the words you've written.

 

 

If you're going to claim that the dangers of bias on an internet forum are "sparse," I don't think we have much basis for a discussion.

 

If I get interested in a poster or one of their stories, I will read their past posts. If there are patterns, they'll show up. I will think about a person's past patterns when considering their current dilemma, naturally.

 

Likewise, patterns in posting response emerge. I am merely pointing out your patterns.

 

 

I don't see how my credibility can be tarnished; I have not asked to be believed. I have posted my impressions of your situation based upon your own many words written about a myriad of situations. As I have said before, just ignore me if you prefer.

 

If you weren't concerned with seeming like a credible source of insight, then you wouldn't be defending your lack of bias.

[northern_sky]

duplicate post

[LondonS]

He's just being dramatic and manipulative, why do you care so much about his little hissy fit/attention grabbing melodrama?

 

Absolutely !!

[northern_sky]

I just spoke with my mother. She's a psychologist, so I always value her insights.

 

I was trying to figure out why I got so hung up on J. She said that she is not surprised, because J seems to have narcissistic elements and according to her both my father and my uncle (my two male archetypes growing up) were narcissistic and smart. I guess my uncle even refers to himself as a narcissist, and he's definitely somebody I compare all of the guys I date to.

 

My father she said explodes whenever he is criticized and always had this notion that he is better than everyone else. It was kind of depressing to hear, but I guess it explains a lot of my attraction to guys like this. No wonder J got under my skin -- he's basically my dad and uncle rolled up into one: intellectually aggressive, selfish, emotionally remote, critical but inwardly sensitive. Yet, these guys frustrate me in the end.

 

Can you really control what you find attractive or will yourself into finding something attractive that you don't naturally? This is something with which I've continually struggled.

Edited December 18, 2010 by northern_sky

[Sarah1977]

It's pretty clear to me at this point that he doesn't value me as a friend at all.

 

 

Yeah, I called that awhile back ago. If someone values you as a person and a friend they don't do some of the things J does. Period. Dude was using you.

 

Further, in telling you about the other girl, I think he was basically telling you that you've been replaced and he has no use for you anymore. In that email he sent, I also noticed that he kind of mimicked your tone and syntax. So I think it's pretty safe to say that he's not upset at you at all, he's just mocking all the emails you sent him.

 

Either that, or you wrote it. *shrugs But yeah, this guy is so done with you.

[dispatch3d]

Well, you've said very many negative things here about him - how much you disrespect him, criticized him up, down and sideways for deciding to move to NY or take a spur of the moment trip, you've shared your intention to play games at his expense for "fun", referred to him as a "fly," diagnosed him with Asperger's, said you had no interest in friendship with him but just wanted to use him as a business contact (right) and on, and on, and on, and on.

 

I would be profoundly surprised if none of this has been used as ammo against him, especially while you've been drinking. After all, he has had the audacity to not be your boyfriend despite all of your ploys.

 

I'm not exactly accusing you of lying, more like dissembling - you said here on LS that you weren't having sex with him - and you were, and that you were going to go no contact with him - and you did not, and that you were not going to be hanging out as "friends" - and you are. So, I venture to guess that there has been a great deal coming from you to him that you have chosen not to share here. I think that you've torqued the tale to try to garner the exact type of attention and responses that you want to receive.

 

That's all fine, and I hope you are enjoying your drama, but I really wonder why it has to culminate in a thread here.

 

Starting to wonder whose the narcissist. Keep in mind the entire first paragraph she wrote is entirely based on facts. Then some very sketchy behaviour by you at saying one thing and doing another... to total strangers... lol. I mean I regularly disagree with this particular poster, but in this case I've got a lot of question marks.

 

Keeping someone to use as a business contact despite the fact you slept with them? He's the narcissist?

[northern_sky]

Your mother met J?

 

Actually she did....

 

Before we hooked up, though. She and my father were visiting and he and his BFF and my roommate were having a BBQ at our house. She remembers having a negative impression of him.

 

That said, it's not like she would have to meet him to recognize traits in someone's behavior. I've gabbed about him nonstop to her and told him everything he's done in our interactions.

Edited December 18, 2010 by northern_sky

[Mme. Chaucer]

Regarding my personal bias:

 

I have told you more than once that I connect with some aspects of yourself (as you present yourself here on LS) because of some of my own past behavior and issues. I freely admit that this brings bias. It's the reason I feel that I personally have something to say to you, which I believe it would behoove you to hear. By now, I am pretty sure that you have no interest, at this stage of your life, anyway, in changing any of the patterns you repeat, or of ever looking at yourself in all your dramas. My posts to you are falling on deaf ears where you're concerned. If I'm moved to contribute to your many threads, I will continue to do so anyway. Maybe someone else reading will be ready to drastically change themselves so that they can move beyond their own toxic behavior.

 

I honestly encourage you to put me on ignore.

 

Also, I wonder why you post here with such remarkable frequency and then get indignant when many people call you out on your roles in your situations. Really, you don't come off as a victim or in need of sympathy often. You seem to corner one guy after another until he acts cornered, and then you cry about it. All the fellas can be interchangeable. Does this not tell you anything? About YOU?

 

 

To me, it's clear that you are benefitting from orchestrating these messes a lot more than you would be by changing. So, as was suggested to another LS member, why don't you just form an email group of folks who agree with you and "cosign" your behavior? You could get all the strokes you want without the annoying prods for you to turn your microscope upon yourself and leave your replaceable props (the guys) out of it. Your analysis of them is pretty dismissible, since it switches wildly depending only upon how they are responding to you at any given moment in the dramas. So is the opinion of your mother the professional psychologist, since she also is only getting the torqued tale and has no personal experience of any of these people, as far as I can recall from what I've read.

 

Why not try the exercise of only using "I" statements when talking about all the stuff that goes on between you and others, especially the men? That could be elucidating ... if you were willing to be completely honest. With yourself first.

[Yer_Blues]

Well, objectively they were fine (although a couple were mistakes). I just have this tendency to devalue exes in retrospect. Probably my own issues.

This may also be coming into play.

[northern_sky]

Regarding my personal bias:

 

I have told you more than once that I connect with some aspects of yourself (as you present yourself here on LS) because of some of my own past behavior and issues. I freely admit that this brings bias. It's the reason I feel that I personally have something to say to you, which I believe it would behoove you to hear. By now, I am pretty sure that you have no interest, at this stage of your life, anyway, in changing any of the patterns you repeat, or of ever looking at yourself in all your dramas. My posts to you are falling on deaf ears where you're concerned. If I'm moved to contribute to your many threads, I will continue to do so anyway. Maybe someone else reading will be ready to drastically change themselves so that they can move beyond their own toxic behavior.

 

 

Exactly. You've made up your mind about me, so no matter what I write, even if I do something innocuous or make a step forward, your reaction will be the same. I'm pretty much certain even if I posted a totally positive thread about how great things were going for me, you'd find a way of twisting it into something negative. In fact recently I posted a positive comment in another thread about how I was feeling better and more confident, and a few posters found a way of tearing me down,

[Yer_Blues]

Exactly. You've made up your mind about me, so no matter what I write, even if I do something innocuous or make a step forward, your reaction will be the same. I'm pretty much certain even if I posted a totally positive thread about how great things were going for me, you'd find a way of twisting it into something negative. In fact recently I posted a positive comment in another thread about how I was feeling better and more confident, and a few posters found a way of tearing me down,

Regardless of the truth... what makes more sense:

 

1. He actually believes what he is posting based on his read of you and your situation.

 

2. He hates you personally. He has an active vendetta and will try to bring you down by any means necessary.

[northern_sky]

Regardless of the truth... what makes more sense:

 

1. He actually believes what he is posting based on his read of you and your situation.

 

2. He hates you personally. He has an active vendetta and will try to bring you down by any means necessary.

 

I believe SHE does believe what she's posting. It's working on a subconscious level.

[sweetjasmine]

Can you really control what you find attractive or will yourself into finding something attractive that you don't naturally?

 

To some extent, yes. If someone's coming from an unhealthy place, they're only going to attract unhealthy people and they're going to be drawn to dysfunctional relationships. Healthy people won't get too close.

 

If that person heals, they'll be more drawn to healthy people and healthy relationship dynamics, but it all starts with that person's own state of mind.

[Jannah]

There is no right or wrong answer here...

 

You both had sex, he rejects you after wards (i.e. not wanting to be exclusive), and he stands you up for a date right after.

 

Do you think you are the first person on the face of the planet, this has happened to? It happens all the time to many people…Granted, he was upfront with YOU about what his intentions were (i.e. casual) from what we've learned after all was said and done...

 

The mistake here - was thinking you both could nurture what once was, into a genuine friendship, so soon after, and hang out platonically as if all was right in the world...

 

Your verbal lashing out, was most likely triggered by ^^ this. You asked a question, that was probably best left unasked/unanswered…Because it just reaffirmed/validated, things that you disliked.

 

I am sure for you, it was like a kick in the face and you reacted harshly via the slutty comment. But, what did you expect would happen? What did you expect by remaining friends with him? That any feelings of hurt and/or disappointment you may have had, would magically resolve on its own, right after?

 

It is almost like a repeat method of self inflicted punishment that you seek out for yourself, and, only you hold the key to knowing why this is...

 

I wish better for you, and for you to learn what YOUR emotional boundaries are, before putting yourself in a situation that is harmful to you.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Regardless of the truth... what makes more sense:

 

1. He actually believes what he is posting based on his read of you and your situation.

 

2. He hates you personally. He has an active vendetta and will try to bring you down by any means necessary.

 

Take it from me ... I (a woman, btw) do believe what I am posting, and I have come to all my conclusions about you, NS, and your situations based upon what you have shared here on LS. MY conclusions, and they might be wrong, but I have them.

 

I don't hate you. I don't want to bring you down. I would really feel good if you came here and posted a completely new take on one of these dramas (I'm not using that term to be insulting; I truly believe that they are dramas above and beyond anything else) that featured only YOUR role, YOUR behavior, your acknowledgement of what YOU did to get the situation into the place it ended up, and some clarity on what YOU need to do and INTEND to do to avoid another similar one next month or week.

 

And then, held onto this intention and acknowledged if /when you were sliding back into YOUR OWN self defeating patterns (which are also very damaging to other people). Because change is hard.

 

I would be super happy for that step and I would try as hard as I could to offer support.

 

As you've been presenting things thus far, I cannot be supportive of your role in your problems. You are not accountable for your role, and you've never indicated any move towards changing. And I can't support you or anyone vilifying other people for ones own behavior.

[northern_sky]

There is no right or wrong answer here...

 

You both had sex, he rejects you after wards (i.e. not wanting to be exclusive), and he stands you up for a date right after.

 

Do you think you are the first person on the face of the planet, this has happened to? It happens all the time to many people…Granted, he was upfront with YOU about what his intentions were (i.e. casual) from what we've learned after all was said and done...

 

The mistake here - was thinking you both could nurture what once was, into a genuine friendship, so soon after, and hang out platonically as if all was right in the world...

 

Your verbal lashing out, was most likely triggered by ^^ this. You asked a question, that was probably best left unasked/unanswered…Because it just reaffirmed/validated, things that you disliked.

 

I am sure for you, it was like a kick in the face and you reacted harshly via the slutty comment. But, what did you expect would happen? What did you expect by remaining friends with him? That any feelings of hurt and/or disappointment you may have had, would magically resolve on its own, right after?

 

It is almost like a repeat method of self inflicted punishment that you seek out for yourself, and, only you hold the key to knowing why this is...

 

I wish better for you, and for you to learn what YOUR emotional boundaries are, before putting yourself in a situation that is harmful to you.

 

I thought staying friends with him was worth a shot. We never actually tried it in practice. Clearly, because of the stuff that came up, and both of our reactions, it's not going to happen. So, yes, I agree with you.

 

I don't regret trying to stay friends with him, though. At least I know now it won't work.

Edited December 18, 2010 by northern_sky

[Jannah]

I thought staying friends with him was worth a shot. We never actually tried it in practice. Clearly, because of the stuff that came up, and both of our reactions, it wasn't going to happen.

 

In theory and/or hypothetically, it sounds "ok" on paper.

 

In reality (in "practice")...very different, as you've discovered for yourself.

[northern_sky]

 

Personally I'm still not getting what the big deal is. You said so yourself, you wanted his friendship in name only, and only as a business contact. So why all the hubbub? Are you that desperate for his business relationship?

 

It's not a huge deal. I was just confused by what happened, so I decided to post it on here.

 

And while I originally thought I wanted to keep him as a business contact only, I had decided to try to stay actual friends with him.

[northern_sky]

Just as a sample of how I relate to J, and how nice I am...almost too nice. I'll post my email to him, between his two emails to me.

 

I maintain that I while I've experienced a lot of internal frustration and vented on here, I have NEVER criticized him before the other night.

 

Hey J,

 

I'm really sorry that I hurt you. That wasn't my intent. I hit a nerve that I didn't even know was there. My choice of words was poor. I apologize for that.

 

That said, reading this email also hit a nerve with me. I feel pretty hurt and surprised, because what I said wasn't mean-spirited, just tactless. I may not be perfect, but I feel like I've been an encouraging friend to you, and very patient. It's not really fair to expect perfection from me when you did something insensitive that I readily forgave -- that time you blew me off. I hope you can put that in perspective. I didn't want to harp on it at the time, but that DID hurt me. Yet I was willing to forgive you, and I don't regret that.

 

Taking that into consideration, I'm surprised you would not want to see me again because I said a few tactless things that I apologized for. My point is if you're not going to be completely sensitive to others, then you should be willing to at least forgive some of their human foibles, or you'll just end up pushing them away.

 

You're right that I'm not good at communicating my thoughts -- people often assume I'm standoffish -- but the truth is I'm very warm and caring once you get past the surface, just socially a bit clueless to those who don't know me well.

 

I've always thought you were a very complex person -- introspective, analytical, reflective, conscientious, deep, emotionally reserved but not shallow. I realize you have some issues, like everyone does, but if I didn't like you, I wouldn't want to hang out. I care about you. But what can I do?

 

I'd hope that we could at least have an honest talk about this in person, if you consider the friendship worth salvaging. I kind of hate talking about this stuff over email.