The Ultimate Denial of a WS

[OWoman]

Just thought I'd chime in here. My A wasn't based on fantasy. Although it's been (very) tough at times, 5 years on we are deeply in love with each other, send music and poems to each other, have a crazy hot physical attraction towards each other, maintain the ability to make each other laugh til we cry and are each others favourite person to spend time with. We are incredibly in tune, like we were during the A.. He's now divorced, and we live together and have bills and chores etc etc to deal with but our personal/emotional relationship with each other hasn't really changed at all. We did have up and downs, but now the dust has settled we are happy with where we are.

 

I do appreciate this isn't the true for all affairs, but it was for us.

 

TFT

 

Nice to see another happy ending, TFT

[blissfullyoblivious]

Wow, shows how little you know! Jthorne is one of the most compasionate and understanding posters here. And her advice is usually spot on. Maybe you need to spend a little moretime reading here.

 

You are too funny.

[John Who]

What makes me angry is those WS who after going back to their M, begin a full denial and minimizing their AP.

 

During the A they say :

 

- I love OP, I'm crazy for OP.

- I'm torn, I miss OP, I want to be with him/her.

 

Once they go back to BS the very same WS says :

 

- OP would have been a terrible partner / husband / wife

- OP and I were very different

- OP and I couldn't reasonably have a LTR.

- Hubby/W is so much better..

 

If OP was so terrible why did they need to keep the A ? (sometimes for years).

 

IMO :

 

1- either they want to convince themselves that they have made the "good choice", pure conscious dishonesty, in other words lying to themselves.

 

2 - or they "project" their guilt on OP shoulders to feel better and less guilty.

 

In my expeirence with my A after the cloud settled and my mind was clear I seen things differently how I acted towards my W and the person I was during my A is not a man I would be proud of I consider my time during my A the lowest part in my life.I deeply regret the choices I made with both my XW and OW and this was not something I had to convince myself to believe, this was my truth I was just to selfesh to realize it during the time of my A.

[OWoman]

Nevertheless, I think the point that's being made here and missed, is of the A dynamic. There are stolen moments, so everyone is on best behavior. No griping about work or the kiddie's diarrhea. It's perpetual dating. I don't know if you've ever been married before, but M's aren't like that. Sure, there's romance, but there's also a mortgage and college funds.

 

Most AP's cannot successfully transition from the fantasy to the reality. Some do, most don't.

 

My A transitioned very smoothly into an A, so perhaps I have more authority to speak on this since I speak from experience and not mere speculation.

 

My A - and many others I've observed IRL, and some that have been described on these boards - are far from being "stolen moments" or "best behaviour". They are at least as real as the M - more real in some cases, such as mine, where my H and I had an actual R during the A while he and his xW shared a piece of paper, a home address and nothing more. And no, we've never "griped" about work or anybody's bowel movements - nor have I ever had the kind of R with anyone at all where we've had so little to speak of that we've had to resort to that! (We do discuss work - we work in the same field - but neither of us do "griping" as we're not petulant people who lack imagination and perspective. Perhaps that's why our R works, while the Ms where the BS gripes about diarrhoea and work are beset by infidelity? )

 

And no, it wasn't "perpetual dating". I've never done dating, and certainly not with my H. We've had a mature - and passionate - R from the outset, and it's continued in that vein. We both left adolescence behind a long time ago, and have no need to return to it. Perhaps your A was a perpetual date, but most As here involving adults include the romance you allude to, as well as more "mundane" factors such as mortgages, finances and kids. I think that those that do not are very much in the minority here. But, if strawmen are easier to deal with than real life situations, I guess that's what will continue to be engaged with by those who find the prospect of REAL As working out IRL too threatening to contemplate.

[OWoman]

In my expeirence with my A after the cloud settled and my mind was clear I seen things differently how I acted towards my W and the person I was during my A is not a man I would be proud of I consider my time during my A the lowest part in my life.I deeply regret the choices I made with both my XW and OW and this was not something I had to convince myself to believe, this was my truth I was just to selfesh to realize it during the time of my A.

 

My H could rewrite that almost verbatim, just substituting "M" where you have A. He, too, is relieved to have emerged from the "fog" that possessed him during that time.

[East7]

In my expeirence with my A after the cloud settled and my mind was clear I seen things differently how I acted towards my W and the person I was during my A is not a man I would be proud of I consider my time during my A the lowest part in my life.I deeply regret the choices I made with both my XW and OW and this was not something I had to convince myself to believe, this was my truth I was just to selfesh to realize it during the time of my A.

 

The point is not 'Why do you regret the A?' but 'Why do you despise/disregard the AP and what you felt/experienced with her?'. Regretting an A is normal because a triangle relationship is wrong and selfish. Being an WS is 1/ Misleading the AP /2. Emotionally abusing the AP

 

There is another thing that I find extremely selfish : When WS come to the conclusion that the BS is finally a better partner. It means that the WS gave himself the luxury to compare two persons while being committed with with one of them. It means that the WS jumped the fence to see if the grass was greener on the other side and came back disappointed...'Finally I'm staying...how did she dare to ask me to leave my spouse..such a crazy expectation'

[BB07]

There is another thing that I find extremely selfish : When WS come to the conclusion that the BS is finally a better partner. It means that the WS gave himself the luxury to compare two persons while being committed with with one of them. It means that the WS jumped the fence to see if the grass was greener on the other side and came back disappointed...'Finally I'm staying...how did she dare to ask me to leave my spouse..such a crazy expectation'

 

I get what you are saying East, but let's put the cart before the horse OK?

 

Had (we) as OW/OM not been part of that triangle, then WS wouldn't have jumped the fence to start with. Well maybe with someone else, but not with us. IMO to assume that being an AP isn't a very high risk endeavor is fool hardy but some how we convince ourselves to take that risk. "A fool for love"

[whichwayisup]

The point is not 'Why do you regret the A?' but 'Why do you despise/disregard the AP and what you felt/experienced with her?'. Regretting an A is normal because a triangle relationship is wrong and selfish. Being an WS is 1/ Misleading the AP /2. Emotionally abusing the AP

 

There is another thing that I find extremely selfish : When WS come to the conclusion that the BS is finally a better partner. It means that the WS gave himself the luxury to compare two persons while being committed with with one of them. It means that the WS jumped the fence to see if the grass was greener on the other side and came back disappointed...'Finally I'm staying...how did she dare to ask me to leave my spouse..such a crazy expectation'

 

How is that different than maybe an OW or OM changing their minds? A WS IS allowed to change their mind, wake up and realize "OH no, wtf am I doing!" Whether the AP likes it or not. You are right though, it IS selfish of a WS to "try someone else out" and then go back to the marriage.. But, affairs are selfish, both parties, not just the WS. And I don't mean any offense to you or any other OW, it's just that affairs are about the two people only, AP/WS not anybody else, hidden and in secret.

 

Also, if the rules are upfront, I'm never leaving my marriage, but I'm okay with having an affair and the AP knows this, then they have to take responsibility for their part and allowing themselves to get in deeper than they should have, and have expectations/hopes, even more so if WS is adament about it just being an affair.

 

Just my 2 cents, right or wrong, doesn't matter. Just my thoughts..

[John Who]

The point is not 'Why do you regret the A?' but 'Why do you despise/disregard the AP and what you felt/experienced with her?'. Regretting an A is normal because a triangle relationship is wrong and selfish. Being an WS is 1/ Misleading the AP /2. Emotionally abusing the AP

 

There is another thing that I find extremely selfish : When WS come to the conclusion that the BS is finally a better partner. It means that the WS gave himself the luxury to compare two persons while being committed with with one of them. It means that the WS jumped the fence to see if the grass was greener on the other side and came back disappointed...'Finally I'm staying...how did she dare to ask me to leave my spouse..such a crazy expectation'

 

 

I do not despise my XAP she comes with the memory of the lowest time in my life and although I wish her well I do not wish to communicate with her there is no need to do so.With that said I also do not believe my AP to be a victim nor myself the only victim here was my XW my AP new of my M and she made a choice to have an A with me so you see she can't be a victim in something she willingly chose to do.

[East7]

I get what you are saying East, but let's put the cart before the horse OK?

 

Had (we) as OW/OM not been part of that triangle, then WS wouldn't have jumped the fence to start with. Well maybe with someone else, but not with us. IMO to assume that being an AP isn't a very high risk endeavor is fool hardy but some how we convince ourselves to take that risk. "A fool for love"

 

Well, yes as AP we take a risk BUT:

1. Any relationship is a risk...the risk to be dumped one day, even if the other partner is single, we may be dumped for someone else. Zero risk relationship doesn't exist. I admit there is an additional risk to get involved with someone already committed but 2:

2. We are often told that the marriage is dysfunctional etc...we are given hope or lead.

3. Yes we are willing participants but we do it ONLY with one goal : because we hope that the relationship will evolute to a exclusive R, not because we "test" the MP or want to see if the grass is greener.

[East7]

I do not despise my XAP she comes with the memory of the lowest time in my life and although I wish her well I do not wish to communicate with her there is no need to do so.With that said I also do not believe my AP to be a victim nor myself the only victim here was my XW my AP new of my M and she made a choice to have an A with me so you see she can't be a victim in something she willingly chose to do.

 

Just because the AP was a willing participant doesn't make her less victim. I don't know what you have told her (I don't want to know) but getting involved with an OW is abusing her emotionally, is taking advantage of someone's natural longing for a real and full relationship. Just because she knew you married doesn't mean that she was a heartless human being or a robot that wanted just some good sex and then go back home like nothing.

You can't just say "she knew, she can just be upset with herself".

[BB07]

Well, yes as AP we take a risk BUT:

1. Any relationship is a risk...the risk to be dumped one day, even if the other partner is single, we may be dumped for someone else. Zero risk relationship doesn't exist. I admit there is an additional risk to get involved with someone already committed but 2:

2. We are often told that the marriage is dysfunctional etc...we are given hope or lead.

3. Yes we are willing participants but we do it ONLY with one goal : because we hope that the relationship will evolute to a exclusive R, not because we "test" the MP or want to see if the grass is greener.

 

 

1. To be an AP is considerably higher risk than other relationships, IMO.
   
2. Yes, sometimes we are told a lot of stuff and it could be total bs and it could have been the truth, BUT at some point we make a choice to believe it or not. So when we make that choice then it's on us.
   
3. As for the goal, because of the circumstances there are already flashing yellow lights all around because we KNOW they are lying and deceiving their SO but we go on with it anyway. Again it's on us. If they are playing a game, we were willing participants, more or less but the game is on them.
   

[BB07]

Just because the AP was a willing participant doesn't make her less victim. I don't know what you have told her (I don't want to know) but getting involved with an OW is abusing her emotionally, is taking advantage of someone's natural longing for a real and full relationship. Just because she knew you married doesn't mean that she was a heartless human being or a robot that wanted just some good sex and then go back home like nothing.

You can't just say "she knew, she can just be upset with herself".

 

 

Sorry East, gotta disagree with you. Being a willing AP does not automatically make you a victim nor does it mean that the OW is being abused. Saying that it is too much of a blanket case. Sure there are some cases like that, when one is conned.

 

Of course they, most of them (OW/OM) aren't heartless or without feeling and yes many fall in love with the MP.

 

Again......It's VERY high risk to become a AP. Most of us know this but we convince ourselves to take that risk.

[John Who]

Just because the AP was a willing participant doesn't make her less victim. I don't know what you have told her (I don't want to know) but getting involved with an OW is abusing her emotionally, is taking advantage of someone's natural longing for a real and full relationship. Just because she knew you married doesn't mean that she was a heartless human being or a robot that wanted just some good sex and then go back home like nothing.

You can't just say "she knew, she can just be upset with herself".

 

 

Ap is not a victim she knew I was M,she is the one who came after me knowing I was M.

 

AP's need to be adults and take responsibilties you are not the victim and by claiming to be victimized just shows how selfesh you are being.You could have left the A and said I refuse to be with a man who is M but you did not you stayed you are an adult not a 10 year old child.The same goes for me I could have said no Im a MM but I did not.Like I said the only victim is the BS.

 

BTW when I say you I do not mean you in general I mean all AP's

[whichwayisup]

An OW or OM who isn't aware of the person being married, then of course IS a victim. To say that an OW or OM goes into the affair knowing full well that the other person is married, is NOT a victim. Or being abused. Noone held a gun to the AP's head and said, go cheat! Get involved with a MP. It sounds like washing one's hands of any blame or responsibility and putting ALL the blame on the MP. That's not how things work.

[woinlove]

Just because the AP was a willing participant doesn't make her less victim. I don't know what you have told her (I don't want to know) but getting involved with an OW is abusing her emotionally, is taking advantage of someone's natural longing for a real and full relationship. Just because she knew you married doesn't mean that she was a heartless human being or a robot that wanted just some good sex and then go back home like nothing.

You can't just say "she knew, she can just be upset with herself".

 

I can't agree with this, East. I was an OW at 19 and MM, 20 years my senior, told me he was "separated". Later learned that meant nothing more than when he was with me, he wasn't with his wife. Still, I didn't end it when I found out the truth and I take full responsibility for that decision. I didn't feel like a victim then and I don't feel like a victim now looking back.

 

When we fall for a jerk are we a victim of the jerk or a victim of our own judgement and decisions? If the jerk is doing a masterful job of deception (as many MM/MW work to pull off on their spouses) then, yes, some of it is being a victim of the jerk. But, if we already know they are married and lying to their spouse, that is a big tipoff and so I think in most cases it would be difficult for them to pull off the same level of deception they pull off with their spouse. Some OW/OM are victims, but certainly not all. I wasn't.

 

Just to be clear, since this is a sensitive forum I am not saying all MM/MW are jerks, but using the example of an assumed jerk to make a point.

[BB07]

I can't agree with this, East. I was an OW at 19 and MM, 20 years my senior, told me he was "separated". Later learned that meant nothing more than when he was with me, he wasn't with his wife. Still, I didn't end it when I found out the truth and I take full responsibility for that decision. I didn't feel like a victim then and I don't feel like a victim now looking back.

 

When we fall for a jerk are we a victim of the jerk or a victim of our own judgement and decisions? If the jerk is doing a masterful job of deception (as many MM/MW work to pull off on their spouses) then, yes, some of it is being a victim of the jerk. But, if we already know they are married and lying to their spouse, that is a big tipoff and so I think in most cases it would be difficult for them to pull off the same level of deception they pull off with their spouse. Some OW/OM are victims, but certainly not all. I wasn't.

 

Just to be clear, since this is a sensitive forum I am not saying all MM/MW are jerks, but using the example of an assumed jerk to make a point.

 

 

Love this post.......wish I had said it.

[East7]

I can't agree with this, East. I was an OW at 19 and MM, 20 years my senior, told me he was "separated". Later learned that meant nothing more than when he was with me, he wasn't with his wife. Still, I didn't end it when I found out the truth and I take full responsibility for that decision. I didn't feel like a victim then and I don't feel like a victim now looking back.

 

When we fall for a jerk are we a victim of the jerk or a victim of our own judgement and decisions? If the jerk is doing a masterful job of deception (as many MM/MW work to pull off on their spouses) then, yes, some of it is being a victim of the jerk. But, if we already know they are married and lying to their spouse, that is a big tipoff and so I think in most cases it would be difficult for them to pull off the same level of deception they pull off with their spouse. Some OW/OM are victims, but certainly not all. I wasn't.

 

Just to be clear, since this is a sensitive forum I am not saying all MM/MW are jerks, but using the example of an assumed jerk to make a point.

 

First of all I didn't assume ALL the OW/OM are victims. Some of them are fine with their status, it is a choice to be fed with crumbs and they are fine with that. I'm not feeling sorry for them.

 

You know, I would have held the same discussion about my A with MW. But I didn't because it is being phony with myself. Now with my head clear I can say...you were involved with a MW, what did you expect dude ? but during the A I couldn't say that. The perspective change with the hindsight.

When you are in the A fog and overwhelmed with feelings you accept the fact that the MP is married as an "obstacle" but you negotiate with yourself, you say after all I'm in love with the actual person, I didn't choose her because she is married, but she is the one, and I want to hope that we have a future together (I know it sounds silly now, but it didn't sound silly to me while I was in the fog).

I also think that we generalize our own experiences. For me, MW was a childhood love and when we found each-other and the A started I naively thought that we were meant to be together. I would hate to consider myself or behave as a victim but hell, I truly loved her and I grieved a lot. Does it mean I don't assume my responsibilities for my own deception. No ! But I will always have a lot of compassion for OW/OM who trusted their MP and genuinely hoped for a future with them.

[woinlove]

First of all I didn't assume ALL the OW/OM are victims. Some of them are fine with their status, it is a choice to be fed with crumbs and they are fine with that. I'm not feeling sorry for them.

 

You know, I would have held the same discussion about my A with MW. But I didn't because it is being phony with myself. Now with my head clear I can say...you were involved with a MW, what did you expect dude ? but during the A I couldn't say that. The perspective change with the hindsight.

When you are in the A fog and overwhelmed with feelings you accept the fact that the MP is married as an "obstacle" but you negotiate with yourself, you say after all I'm in love with the actual person, I didn't choose her because she is married, but she is the one, and I want to hope that we have a future together (I know it sounds silly now, but it didn't sound silly to me while I was in the fog).

I also think that we generalize our own experiences. For me, MW was a childhood love and when we found each-other and the A started I naively thought that we were meant to be together. I would hate to consider myself or behave as a victim but hell, I truly loved her and I grieved a lot. Does it mean I don't assume my responsibilities for my own deception. No ! But I will always have a lot of compassion for OW/OM who trusted their MP and genuinely hoped for a future with them.

 

East, nothing you write sounds silly and those feelings are understandable when you want to be with someone who is married to someone else. It also makes sense to have compassion for people in that situation. But I still don't see how it makes them victims, except in the sense that we have all been victims of love - giving our hearts to someone who turned out not to be the right someone after all. One doesn't need to be a victim to be in pain and to inspire compassion in others. But, maybe I misunderstand your point about victims.

[crazyizzy]

i'll take

 

3 - they realize the A was a fantasy and that they had projected feelings of true love where none existed.

 

my MM will deny it because he swears he'll love me til the day he days. yeah whatever...

[blissfullyoblivious]

vic·tim n.

 

1. One who is harmed or killed by another: a victim of a mugging.

2. A living creature slain and offered as a sacrifice during a religious rite.

3. One who is harmed by or made to suffer from an act, circumstance, agency, or condition: victims of war.

4. A person who suffers injury, loss, or death as a result of a voluntary undertaking: You are a victim of your own scheming.

5. A person who is tricked, swindled, or taken advantage of: the victim of a cruel hoax.

 

I agree with East that with hindsight it is very easy to rewrite history. If you need to get over your AP fast what better way than to deny the reality of what you experienced.

 

MM - blame the OP for not being able to see the future. They should have known they were just being strung along is such a cop out.

 

OW - tend not to accept that AP meant what they said at the time (unless simply cruel). Looking backwards doesn't change what happened just gives you a different perspective.

 

Who is to say it is more balanced? The lies we tell ourselves are worst that those of the AP.

[East7]

So I'm coming back to my thread because I found the scientific (psychological) explanation to the Topic :

 

Why WS is in denial ?

 

The phenomena in psychology is called Cognitive Dissonance, (justifying/blaming/denying)in simpler words : rationalization. When the reality (commitment) enters in conflict with a desire (having an AP) the person who lives this conflict tempts to find an external factor to his choice :

 

 

• When in relationship with the AP the WS will blame the BS or the marriage for his unhappiness and to justify the act of looking elsewhere for sentimental needs. Even if the marriage is great he will lie to himself and to AP how miserable he is, in order to avoid the interior conflict between the reality of his marriage and the desire for the AP.
  
• When he will return in the marriage, he will rationalize again his conflict between reality (still having feelings for the AP) and his choice (staying married) by statements which are supposed to comfort his choice and avoid interior conflict (above) : "The AP was not worth it", "My spouse is better", "AP and I, it would never work"
  

Interesting, the denial of a apologetic WS is similar to the Fox and the Grapes story :

 

In the story, a fox sees some high-hanging grapes and wishes to eat them. When the fox is unable to think of a way to reach them, he surmises that the grapes are probably not worth eating, as they must not be ripe or that they are sour. This example follows a pattern: one desires something, finds it unattainable, and reduces one's dissonance by criticizing it.

 

The WS criticizes the BS for cheating first, then when back to the marriage - often after DDay and reality kicks in face - they start to rationalize by adapting their needs shifting the focus to the spouse by disregarding the AP - Jon Elster* calls this pattern "adaptive preference formation." The subject (WS) adapts his preference to something more acceptable and attainable (the marriage).

*Elster, Jon. Sour Grapes: Studies in the Subversion of Rationality. Cambridge 1983

[Spark1111]

Which is all well and good and could be true, unless there is a DDAY!

 

The BS now knows and is crazy! The same spouse who you claimed did not love you is now one big ball of sobbing pain. Calling family. Calling friends. Calling attorneys. In front of your children.

 

Now, what the WS thinks, desires, wants, is of absolutely no import to a crazed, scorned, BS.

 

This is the forgotten factor: The true reaction of many a BS on DDAY, which is NEVER entirely, truthfully disclosed to the AP! It, like everything else in the A, is spun, minimized, and used to garner sympathy from the AP.

 

Because to tell the AP the truth of it, would make all those 'stories' of how miserable the marriage was false!

 

Because the only reason to feel that much pain is that the BS really, really loved their spouse. And there is NO WAY the WS will tell the AP the truth of that!

 

People who do NOT react like that, have a marital contract, no more, no less.

 

So do not believe for a sec many a BS will even tolerate minimization of the AP from a WS who could claim the sky is blue and a BS will not believe one word that comes out of their mouth.....for a very, very long time.

 

Many of us realize they are just trying to save the azzes.

[seren]

Which is all well and good and could be true, unless there is a DDAY!

 

The BS now knows and is crazy! The same spouse who you claimed did not love you is now one big ball of sobbing pain. Calling family. Calling friends. Calling attorneys. In front of your children.

 

Now, what the WS thinks, desires, wants, is of absolutely no import to a crazed, scorned, BS.

 

This is the forgotten factor: The true reaction of many a BS on DDAY, which is NEVER entirely, truthfully disclosed to the AP! It, like everything else in the A, is spun, minimized, and used to garner sympathy from the AP.

 

Because to tell the AP the truth of it, would make all those 'stories' of how miserable the marriage was false!

 

Because the only reason to feel that much pain is that the BS really, really loved their spouse. And there is NO WAY the WS will tell the AP the truth of that!

 

People who do NOT react like that, have a marital contract, no more, no less.

 

So do not believe for a sec many a BS will even tolerate minimization of the AP from a WS who could claim the sky is blue and a BS will not believe one word that comes out of their mouth.....for a very, very long time.

 

Many of us realize they are just trying to save the azzes.

 

 

 

I am getting to feel like your stalker Spark, going behind you nodding vigorously and saying, yes, yes, yes (not in a Harry Met Sally way you understand)!

 

I think when the WS sees the hurt and upset of a BS it is like a WTF have I done moment. Before that the compartmentalising keeps it all separate, seeing the effects of actions is like being a bomb aimer, it is easier to look at the target and drop the bomb from 20,000 feet, but to then be made to walk through the carnage at ground level a sharp shock and the realisation that the bomb hit people and hurt them.

 

I also think the minimisation of the marriage is necessary for the WS to justify having an A in the first place, a sort of entitlement excuse. I am not denying that people fall in and out of love. There are few BS I know who just accept the A on a D Day, and the need for knowledge to understand the A sees every little detail of it picked apart, looked at, discussed and very often there are, so you risked our marriage for that? Why not just come and say you wanted someone else, you could have left, etc etc.

[Spark1111]

I am getting to feel like your stalker Spark, going behind you nodding vigorously and saying, yes, yes, yes (not in a Harry Met Sally way you understand)!

 

I think when the WS sees the hurt and upset of a BS it is like a WTF have I done moment. Before that the compartmentalising keeps it all separate, seeing the effects of actions is like being a bomb aimer, it is easier to look at the target and drop the bomb from 20,000 feet, but to then be made to walk through the carnage at ground level a sharp shock and the realisation that the bomb hit people and hurt them.

 

I also think the minimisation of the marriage is necessary for the WS to justify having an A in the first place, a sort of entitlement excuse. I am not denying that people fall in and out of love. There are few BS I know who just accept the A on a D Day, and the need for knowledge to understand the A sees every little detail of it picked apart, looked at, discussed and very often there are, so you risked our marriage for that? Why not just come and say you wanted someone else, you could have left, etc etc.

 

Hahaha, Seren!

 

Yes, I agree. What is the line? "I think we grew up and aware together....in different towns.":bunny::bunny: