Kismetly Posted December 11, 2010 Posted December 11, 2010 In another thread I commented to Tigers that he reminded me of my AP. He asked the question if all MM remind me of my affair partner? It's a good question. There are a lot of stereotypes bandied around about people who have affairs. I even saw one post recommending a book with the title When Good People Have Affairs. An OP quipped "that's an oxymoron". (He's clever, but he's a bit mean.) Do all MM in affairs remind me of my MM? Well, thing is, I don't know many MM who admit to having or being in an affair and those I do know are not about to talk about it honestly to me. Adultery. It's one of the last remaining taboos. My best friend's husband had an affair. He doesn't think anyone knows about it. Lots of people know about it. My best friend knows about it. Funny how no one talks about it;) Does he remind me of my affair partner? Maybe. A bit. He's in an unsatisfying relationship, not prepared to do anything about it, able to focus all his emotional energy on work so he doesn't have to face the emotional vaccume at home. Too enmeshed financially and with the care of 2 children to sincerely contemplate leaving the marriage relationship, but easily distracted by an attractive, independent woman. Seriously contemplates that he might be happier with the OW, but the pay-out is losing the right to live full time with your children, halving your assets, losing half your family (because blood is thicker than water, and while you may maintain a cordial relationship with your ex-inlaws, it'll never be the same again). You will no longer be part of that family in the way you have been for most of your adult life. It's a whole lot of pay-off. So the poor silly bugger just stays stuck where he is, because he doesn't have the personal resources to make a decision to either buy into the life he's stuck with, engage with it and make it the best it can be OR shake the whole thing up and decide he's going to create a new future for himself. Yeah I guess those circumstances do remind me of my AP. But the sterotype around here is of a man who is deliberately duplicitous with sinister intentions from beginning to end. That stereotype doesn't remind me of my AP. The stereotype assumes the man is always deliberately lying. It assumes a level of premeditated deception and dishonesty that I just don't think is always the case. I think some MM who have affairs are just not living deliberately enough to preconceive the deception. I think they are just stumbling through life (like the rest of us) and they fall into these things without really thinking about the consequences .... then they develop feelings (because we're not talking about a one night stand here - these are for the most part intimate emotional and physical relationships) for the OP and it just confuses the heck out of them. They behave badly (to both the spouse and the OP) because they are in a bad place emotionally in not in a rational space to make healthy decisions. I think it must be it's own special kind of hell.
desertIslandCactus Posted December 11, 2010 Posted December 11, 2010 If one reads the diff stories on LS, I think they will find that these MM at least seem to be predictable.
OWoman Posted December 11, 2010 Posted December 11, 2010 If one reads the diff stories on LS, I think they will find that these MM at least seem to be predictable. Interesting notion! When I first started posting on LS, I was told emphatically that he was "just like all the other MMs", that he would never leave, that every word leaving his mouth was a lie, that his M with his BW was perfect, that they had hot passionate monkey sex every night, and that he loved her and I was just his dirty little secret. And then he left her and moved into a new place with the kids, started D proceedings, and I moved in with him, and we got M once the D was through. Then, suddenly, almost every time I comment, someone pipes up about how "different" my situation is.... Odd, that. How despite my protestations that As were all different, and that mine differed in key aspects (such as, he never lied to me; his xW is abusive; his M was dysfunctional; they led separate lives, etc) that was all swept under the rug, dismissed as "they all claim that, it's all lies" (whether or not I'd established it independently of anything he said) it was "the same as any other A" in so many people's eyes and then overnight morphed into "but it's not the same at all" in a heartbeat, as if there was no contradiction, once these people were proved wrong in their unmovable certainty.... I think many people would like to believe that As are all the same, that MMs are all the same, and the the outcomes are always the same. Lived experience tells us this isn't so, but some people are simply far too invested in clinging to their preconceptions to allow them to consider that they may be wrong.
spice4life Posted December 11, 2010 Posted December 11, 2010 When I responded to tigers post on his thread I was referring more to the behaviors of an MM. The "roller coaster" ride so to speak. Personality wise? I think no...they are not all the same. Mine was very sweet, we enjoyed each other immensely when we were together and when he was relaxed enough to let his true self show, I really liked what I saw.
Author Kismetly Posted December 11, 2010 Author Posted December 11, 2010 Interesting notion! I think many people would like to believe that As are all the same, that MMs are all the same, and the the outcomes are always the same. Lived experience tells us this isn't so, but some people are simply far too invested in clinging to their preconceptions to allow them to consider that they may be wrong. Hi OWoman That's the thing that does my head in here. I like it here because it reminds me of how the-rest-of-the-world-thinks ... but I worry the view is a little too narrow and a little too preconceived - and there's not a lot of space for diversity of views which would make it a much more interesting, challenging and reflective debate. I'm not an apologist for the situation I find myself in. It's not cool that i'm falling in love with another woman's man. But it's not as simple as that either. I understand the BS screaming that I should just stop it now - that's the logical response, that's the ethical response. I just wonder if the confines of generally-acceptable-ethical-behaviour isn't part of the problem in the first place. In the past 3 years, I've been approached by several men who turned out to be married - and as soon as I found out they were married (usually after 1st or 2nd date and no or little physical contact) I cut it ... click ...just like that. It wasn't even a consideration to me. Married - off limits. Nevertheless it evidences the fact for me that there are a lot of men living in quite desperation. I dont' blame their wife for that, but I humbly suggest that a broken marriage is caused by two partners - and if one choses to deal with that, rather inapproprietly, by getting what he needs elsewhere - it's not entirely the OPs fault. I get that it's immoral. I get that it's disrespectful to the spouse. I get that the it's not fair that the people in the affair seem to have more control over the situation than the BS ... none of that's OK I just dont' accept that all MM go in to affair relationships with a desire to deliberately deceive and misinform the AP or the wife. I think some people are just deeply unhappy in their current circumstances and when they get a glimpse of new options or new outcomes they can't help themselves but jump in ... I don't think that makes them evil - I think that makes them face up to a transition they either need to take or reject. The problem is, many MM chose to defer the decision ... and many AP choose to let them ... perhaps that's where the rot sets in.
Author Kismetly Posted December 11, 2010 Author Posted December 11, 2010 When I responded to tigers post on his thread I was referring more to the behaviors of an MM. The "roller coaster" ride so to speak. Personality wise? I think no...they are not all the same. Mine was very sweet, we enjoyed each other immensely when we were together and when he was relaxed enough to let his true self show, I really liked what I saw. I liked your response Spice4life - and it's what got me thinking. Mine's sweet and clever and funny too. I like what I see when I don't think about all the stuff I don't see ... the partner at "home" dealing with 3 kids while he's off working away and living-his-dream. There's a part of me that thinks "well it would be different with me, because he respects me professionally, I'm fun, smart and sexy and god knows I'm a catch" !! ... but I suspect that's me projecting a future that I'd like to see - and the reality probably is that if he couldn't sort it out with the mother of his children - how the heck is he going to sort it out with me? Feeling a bit pessimistic tonight!
KarmasTestDummy Posted December 13, 2010 Posted December 13, 2010 Interesting notion! When I first started posting on LS, I was told emphatically that he was "just like all the other MMs", that he would never leave, that every word leaving his mouth was a lie, that his M with his BW was perfect, that they had hot passionate monkey sex every night, and that he loved her and I was just his dirty little secret. And then he left her and moved into a new place with the kids, started D proceedings, and I moved in with him, and we got M once the D was through. Then, suddenly, almost every time I comment, someone pipes up about how "different" my situation is.... Odd, that. How despite my protestations that As were all different, and that mine differed in key aspects (such as, he never lied to me; his xW is abusive; his M was dysfunctional; they led separate lives, etc) that was all swept under the rug, dismissed as "they all claim that, it's all lies" (whether or not I'd established it independently of anything he said) it was "the same as any other A" in so many people's eyes and then overnight morphed into "but it's not the same at all" in a heartbeat, as if there was no contradiction, once these people were proved wrong in their unmovable certainty.... I think many people would like to believe that As are all the same, that MMs are all the same, and the the outcomes are always the same. Lived experience tells us this isn't so, but some people are simply far too invested in clinging to their preconceptions to allow them to consider that they may be wrong. OWoman I love your perspective and it brings me pleasure to hear it. My MM's situation is almost verbatim as you described your guys. When I shared it I was told it is merely what he chooses to tell me and that he was a liar. When I came out with facts, proof, discovery that he was telling me the truth as I suspected all along I was told that I was only in it fr the drama and that so is he and her and that there is still no hope. The bottom line is yes there is dysfunction, but chaos and dysfunction are what tend to end a marriage, not keep on trapped within it's confines. I would be much more unnerved and have far less faith in him if he lived under the pretense that all was well and this was a r of passion alone. He not only tells me he loves me but shows me in many ways that have nothing to do with torrid sex. I believe as does he that his M is destined for destruction with or without my hand in it. And despite all negativity I really do believe that there is a happy ending in there somewhere waiting to be written. Perhaps I am romanticizing but I believe in us and for now concede to be the HOW.
Owl Posted December 13, 2010 Posted December 13, 2010 I'd suggest that while not every person is the same, nor is every relationship exactly the same...the dynamics of most of these relationships tend to be very, very similar. Granted, not all the same. But I'd be willing to bet that if there were some true research done on this, you'd find that there probably only 3 or 4 "stories" that would describe the vast majority of situations out there. I'd bet that the MM, the OW, the BS, and the "general storyline" for one of each of the main "stories" would fit a great majority of posters here on LS...myself included. There was nothing "special" about my case, any moreso than most others. Are the INDIVIDUALS different? Sure. Are their behaviors, mindsets, and attitudes all drastically, individually different in each and every situation we see here? I don't think so. People just aren't that complex. Their responses to specific situations do tend to fall into groups or catagories. That's part of why you see "blanket advice' a lot of times. It may not be a perfect fit for all...but it's usually a good fit for most. The longer I've been on this board and others, the more I see what amounts to pretty much the same 3-4 stories, with the VERY RARE "outlier" that comes in. No disrespect intended with this...none of this negates the very real personal pain and devestation that most people are feeling when they come here.
desertIslandCactus Posted December 13, 2010 Posted December 13, 2010 Interesting notion! When I first started posting on LS, I was told emphatically that he was "just like all the other MMs", that he would never leave, that every word leaving his mouth was a lie, that his M with his BW was perfect, that they had hot passionate monkey sex every night, and that he loved her and I was just his dirty little secret. And then he left her and moved into a new place with the kids, started D proceedings, and I moved in with him, and we got M once the D was through. Then, suddenly, almost every time I comment, someone pipes up about how "different" my situation is.... Odd, that. How despite my protestations that As were all different, and that mine differed in key aspects (such as, he never lied to me; his xW is abusive; his M was dysfunctional; they led separate lives, etc) that was all swept under the rug, dismissed as "they all claim that, it's all lies" (whether or not I'd established it independently of anything he said) it was "the same as any other A" in so many people's eyes and then overnight morphed into "but it's not the same at all" in a heartbeat, as if there was no contradiction, once these people were proved wrong in their unmovable certainty.... I think many people would like to believe that As are all the same, that MMs are all the same, and the the outcomes are always the same. Lived experience tells us this isn't so, but some people are simply far too invested in clinging to their preconceptions to allow them to consider that they may be wrong. The man who took my valuables out of my storage.. It only Looks as if he got by with it. I let down my guard by placing my cherished items in there while my new house was being built.. (And so-called law enforcement was lax on the follow-up) .. I'm sure the thief felt he needed my possessions more than I... but still, even though he Succeeded: what he did was wrong... An outsider in the M is very much the same .. and could be only considered: the enticement, as is the MM. Not there for the taking..
desertIslandCactus Posted December 13, 2010 Posted December 13, 2010 Hi OWoman That's the thing that does my head in here. I like it here because it reminds me of how the-rest-of-the-world-thinks ... but I worry the view is a little too narrow and a little too preconceived - and there's not a lot of space for diversity of views which would make it a much more interesting, challenging and reflective debate. I'm not an apologist for the situation I find myself in. It's not cool that i'm falling in love with another woman's man. But it's not as simple as that either. I understand the BS screaming that I should just stop it now - that's the logical response, that's the ethical response. I just wonder if the confines of generally-acceptable-ethical-behaviour isn't part of the problem in the first place. In the past 3 years, I've been approached by several men who turned out to be married - and as soon as I found out they were married (usually after 1st or 2nd date and no or little physical contact) I cut it ... click ...just like that. It wasn't even a consideration to me. Married - off limits. Nevertheless it evidences the fact for me that there are a lot of men living in quite desperation. I dont' blame their wife for that, but I humbly suggest that a broken marriage is caused by two partners - and if one choses to deal with that, rather inapproprietly, by getting what he needs elsewhere - it's not entirely the OPs fault. I get that it's immoral. I get that it's disrespectful to the spouse. I get that the it's not fair that the people in the affair seem to have more control over the situation than the BS ... none of that's OK I just dont' accept that all MM go in to affair relationships with a desire to deliberately deceive and misinform the AP or the wife. I think some people are just deeply unhappy in their current circumstances and when they get a glimpse of new options or new outcomes they can't help themselves but jump in ... I don't think that makes them evil - I think that makes them face up to a transition they either need to take or reject. The problem is, many MM chose to defer the decision ... and many AP choose to let them ... perhaps that's where the rot sets in. They get into the affair relationship to get a little extra.. Start feeling of their entitlement - and flaws in the M.
desertIslandCactus Posted December 13, 2010 Posted December 13, 2010 I liked your response Spice4life - and it's what got me thinking. Mine's sweet and clever and funny too. I like what I see when I don't think about all the stuff I don't see ... the partner at "home" dealing with 3 kids while he's off working away and living-his-dream. There's a part of me that thinks "well it would be different with me, because he respects me professionally, I'm fun, smart and sexy and god knows I'm a catch" !! ... but I suspect that's me projecting a future that I'd like to see - and the reality probably is that if he couldn't sort it out with the mother of his children - how the heck is he going to sort it out with me? Feeling a bit pessimistic tonight! Mine was too. Sweet, clever, funny, handsome, romantic, thoughtful. And he still tries to be. Thank you God that I have seen the light. That I am too whole of a woman to be the putty for someone elses life/marriage. This goofy man can play let's pretend - with someone else..
greengoddess Posted December 13, 2010 Posted December 13, 2010 OWoman I love your perspective and it brings me pleasure to hear it. My MM's situation is almost verbatim as you described your guys. When I shared it I was told it is merely what he chooses to tell me and that he was a liar. When I came out with facts, proof, discovery that he was telling me the truth as I suspected all along I was told that I was only in it fr the drama and that so is he and her and that there is still no hope. The bottom line is yes there is dysfunction, but chaos and dysfunction are what tend to end a marriage, not keep on trapped within it's confines. I would be much more unnerved and have far less faith in him if he lived under the pretense that all was well and this was a r of passion alone. He not only tells me he loves me but shows me in many ways that have nothing to do with torrid sex. I believe as does he that his M is destined for destruction with or without my hand in it. And despite all negativity I really do believe that there is a happy ending in there somewhere waiting to be written. Perhaps I am romanticizing but I believe in us and for now concede to be the HOW. Then what is he waiting for? Why doesn't he leave? Is he waiting for his wife to call all the shots and hoping she will have enough?
jennie-jennie Posted December 13, 2010 Posted December 13, 2010 I'd suggest that while not every person is the same, nor is every relationship exactly the same...the dynamics of most of these relationships tend to be very, very similar. Granted, not all the same. But I'd be willing to bet that if there were some true research done on this, you'd find that there probably only 3 or 4 "stories" that would describe the vast majority of situations out there. I'd bet that the MM, the OW, the BS, and the "general storyline" for one of each of the main "stories" would fit a great majority of posters here on LS...myself included. There was nothing "special" about my case, any moreso than most others. Are the INDIVIDUALS different? Sure. Are their behaviors, mindsets, and attitudes all drastically, individually different in each and every situation we see here? I don't think so. People just aren't that complex. Their responses to specific situations do tend to fall into groups or catagories. That's part of why you see "blanket advice' a lot of times. It may not be a perfect fit for all...but it's usually a good fit for most. The longer I've been on this board and others, the more I see what amounts to pretty much the same 3-4 stories, with the VERY RARE "outlier" that comes in. No disrespect intended with this...none of this negates the very real personal pain and devestation that most people are feeling when they come here. I found therapist Emily Brown's division of affairs into five types helpful: "Conflict Avoidance Affair Affair Conflict Avoiders are nice ?? they're terrified to be anything but nice, for fear that conflict will lead to abandonment or losing control. They don't have a way to stand up to each other when there's a problem, so they can't resolve their difference and the marriage erodes. An 'equal opportunity' affair. Intimacy Avoidance Affair Affair Intimacy Avoiders are frightened of getting too close, so they keep the barriers high between them. Conflict is one barrier, affairs are another. Their emotional connection with each other is through frequent and intense conflict. Often, each spouse becomes involved in an affair. These couples are the mirror opposite of the Conflict Avoiders. Sexual Addiction Affair Sexual Addicts use sex over and over again to numb inner pain and emptiness, much like alcoholics use alcohol. Among married people, men are sexual addicts more often than women. Split Self Affair The Split Selves have tried to do marriage right. Both spouses have sacrificed their own feelings and needs to take care of others, and the deprivation has caught up with one of them. The affair is serious, long-term and passionate. The spouse who is having the affair focuses on deciding between the marriage and the affair partner and avoids looking at the inner split. Most often this is a man's affair, but that may be changing. Exit Affair Affair Exiters are Conflict Avoiders at heart, but they take it further. One spouse has already decided to leave the marriage and the affair provides the justification. The other partner usually blames the affair rather than looking at how their marriage got to this point. Another 'equal opportunity' affair." http://www.affairs-help.com/types.html For those who want to read further, I recommend Emily Brown's books AFFAIRS and PATTERNS OF INFIDELITY AND THEIR TREATMENT.
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