Lying with statistics

[SidLyon]

Congrats on your LLB as well. Forgot to mention that before.

 

I have to say that I've never seen someone give that advice to a BS. That's about the worst advice I've ever heard because unless you work at a church, that's the easy way to get your spouse fired for not being able to keep work and home life separate.

 

People are vehemently against infidelity in the US, but that doesn't translate into your job wanting to step in and do anything about it.

 

Wow. Glad I didn't see that. I would have asked if the person recommending that was serious because it wouldn't help. It would help if the OP and AP worked together and one of them ratted the other out. But not for a spouse.

 

I was fairly sure that I've seen it suggested that affairs be outed to employers/HR especially if in the military. I may have been mistaken though in which case I apologise.

 

Although if it's an easy way to get someone fired then that sounds different to here anyway.

[NoIDidn't]

I was fairly sure that I've seen it suggested that affairs be outed to employers/HR especially if in the military. I may have been mistaken though in which case I apologise.

 

Although if it's an easy way to get someone fired then that sounds different to here anyway.

 

Especially in the military. If you tell on your spouse and they are in the military, you can affect their rank and income. And military pay is already paltry.

 

It would be a foolish person to report their military spouse for cheating. Or report the OP because they would then tell who they were cheating with. And if your spouse had the higher rank, and you liked the pay, you just negatively affected your home. Not worth it.

 

But most militaries have honor codes. I'm just not familiar with any other than that of the US military.

 

Interesting, as this thread is about statistics. The military has a very high infidelity rate. People just don't frequently report the cheaters, but they do tend to answer anonymous surveys more honestly than the general public.

[Got it]

Not so long ago I read an article about the levels of acceptance of infidelity in different countries. I'm sorry I can't find a reference now.

 

What I remember is that the levels of acceptance in Australia was one of the highest in the countries surveyed. On a par with Sweden in fact.

 

The way this translates in Australia is that we have a laid-back attitude to it, not that we accept it as inevitable and that BSs are not utterly devastate by it.

 

A practical example is that often I see advice on LS to a BS to "go to HR" for a workplace affair. I assume from this that most employers in the USA would frown on infidelity enough to take some action. In Australia it would be unusual for an employer to care terribly much about affairs between staff unless they involved a major fraud or misuse of employers' premises.

 

Thanks to those who gave me good wishes (on the forum and in PMs) on completing my LLB.

 

I have an interest in all things legal, and as it happens my first degree is in economics and statistics.

 

I know that people recommend it but unless there are definite policies against marital affairs or dating in the company (and there are growing lawsuits against unlawful termination in regards to invasion of privacy and discrimination of marital status) the chances of termination aren't that likely.

 

So most companies will be annoyed at both parties for bring personal crap into the workplace but terminate? Really depends on how vital they are. They may transfer, they may terminate, they may ignore. The farther up the food chain, especially if it is a private company, the less likely anything will happen.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Got it

[Fieldsofgold]

So women in that country just roll over and accept that kind of chauvenistic, sexist attitude?

 

Oh, wow.

 

This is how it sounds to me, too. The wives are just as hurt by the betrayal, but they feel they have to accept and tolerate it. The girlfriends accept that they are only and always just Gf's and not to ever expect more.

 

Just sounds to me like the women in these other cultures are more conditioned to accept crappy treatment without undue protest.

 

I don't think that's my idea of evolved, or advanced.

[NoIDidn't]

This is how it sounds to me, too. The wives are just as hurt by the betrayal, but they feel they have to accept and tolerate it. The girlfriends accept that they are only and always just Gf's and not to ever expect more.

 

Just sounds to me like the women in these other cultures are more conditioned to accept crappy treatment without undue protest.

 

I don't think that's my idea of evolved, or advanced.

 

The bolded sums it up pretty well.

 

Its reported by some here like the GFs have this great deal since they won't be demonized having participated in an affair in these cultures. But the truth is, the men often don't value them anymore than they value their wives.

 

Its not an evolved way of living or thinking at all.

[Fieldsofgold]

Actually, it was that way in America, too, a hundred years ago. Men did what they wanted and women pretty much put up with it. But then, between the 1920's and 1940's, the women's rights movement gained power, and women began to stand up for themselves and demand equality and respect in all areas of life. Among other things, women began to have demands and expectations about how their H's treated them. H's were no longer free to have extra-marital relationships without serious repercussions. So actually, the lack of tolerance for affairs in America can be attributed to the progress of equal rights. It's been a slow train coming, but at least it's rolling.

[JustAFlyOnTheWall]

this is admitting defeat.

 

Homosexuality and child abuse are much more difficult to address than infidelity. That doesn't mean you give up and go home.

 

We have very good evidence that many really, good nice kind people are unfaithful; that infidelity often ends in really happy sucessful relations and why should we just say this is peanuts?

 

we know 50% of marriages end

 

we know 64% of marriages experience infidelity

 

lovers and mistresses are not serial killers and child molesters..anything more than 59% of americans do is normal. Get over it.

 

Where did you get your 64% statistic?

 

I've actually researched infidelity academically and am not familiar with this quote so please do share your reference.

 

There are plenty of stats on infidelity but it's exceptionally limited in it's validity because of study participant's willingness to be honest. Plus different researchers define "infidelity" differently.

[Sidtheskid]

Where did you get your 64% statistic?

 

I've actually researched infidelity academically and am not familiar with this quote so please do share your reference.

 

There are plenty of stats on infidelity but it's exceptionally limited in it's validity because of study participant's willingness to be honest. Plus different researchers define "infidelity" differently.

 

It's unlikely that a study will reveal the "truth" about infidelity.

 

I think the points are:

 

Men seek sex outside marriage

Women accept men's infidelity

 

Women don't understand the importance of sex in a relationship

Women supress their sexual needs

[JustAFlyOnTheWall]

It's unlikely that a study will reveal the "truth" about infidelity.

 

I think the points are:

 

Men seek sex outside marriage

Women accept men's infidelity

 

Women don't understand the importance of sex in a relationship

Women supress their sexual needs

 

From the reading I've done, the leading causes of sexual infidelity are: emotional invalidation, permissive sexual values, increased sexual needs, mental instability, decreased communication.

 

I disagree with women accept men's infidelity? Huh?

Marital fidelity is one of the most widely accepted social norms. Additionally, women's rates of sexual infidelity is not that much lower than men's. So.....

[Sidtheskid]

From the reading I've done, the leading causes of sexual infidelity are: emotional invalidation, permissive sexual values, increased sexual needs, mental instability, decreased communication.

 

I disagree with women accept men's infidelity? Huh?

Marital fidelity is one of the most widely accepted social norms. Additionally, women's rates of sexual infidelity is not that much lower than men's. So.....

 

Men don't leave a marriage for emotional reasons. Communication takes 2 - and it's usually becuz the man is not receiving the connection he expected when he married.

 

Sexual infidelity happens when a woman refuses her man's advances. When you refuse, you must accept that there is someone who won't.

 

Simple really.

[jennie-jennie]

Sexual infidelity happens when a woman refuses her man's advances. When you refuse, you must accept that there is someone who won't.

Simple really.

 

I so agree with this, and sometimes it is the man who refuses. Both my MM and I were starved for sex when we reconnected. To find a sexual partner who is your equal was mind-blowing after years (for both of us) of sexual needs going unmet.

[OWoman]

From the reading I've done, the leading causes of sexual infidelity are: emotional invalidation, permissive sexual values, increased sexual needs, mental instability, decreased communication.

 

Yet, when OWs report that the BW is a raving loon, they're told that that's just part of "the script" with no basis in reality...

[Owl]

Yet, when OWs report that the BW is a raving loon, they're told that that's just part of "the script" with no basis in reality...

 

I don't think that Justa's "statistics" referred to any of these attributes being tied directly to the BS or WS specifically...

 

...from what we've seen posted here, I'd find that it seems more likely that the "emotional instability" (and the other attributes mentioned) seem more likely to be found in the MM/MW than in their spouse.

 

Now...once the infidelity is known...all bets are off. Shortly after d-day, emotionally unstable would have indeed been a suitable description of me at that time...as a direct result of my wife's actions. Not as a permanent attribute that I brought to the marriage.

 

With all that said...I get that YOUR HUSBAND'S EX-WIFE may well have been emotionally unstable prior to (as well as during and after) his affair with you. But...I do not believe that this is an underlying attribute common to MOST, or even MANY, BS's prior to d-day.

[OWoman]

I don't think that Justa's "statistics" referred to any of these attributes being tied directly to the BS or WS specifically...

 

...from what we've seen posted here, I'd find that it seems more likely that the "emotional instability" (and the other attributes mentioned) seem more likely to be found in the MM/MW than in their spouse.

 

Now...once the infidelity is known...all bets are off. Shortly after d-day, emotionally unstable would have indeed been a suitable description of me at that time...as a direct result of my wife's actions. Not as a permanent attribute that I brought to the marriage.

 

With all that said...I get that YOUR HUSBAND'S EX-WIFE may well have been emotionally unstable prior to (as well as during and after) his affair with you. But...I do not believe that this is an underlying attribute common to MOST, or even MANY, BS's prior to d-day.

 

With figures cited of 1 in 4 people suffering some form of mental health issue, it would be unsurprising to find a high number of BOTH BS and WS with some emotional instability issues, of whatever description.

 

IME a large no of MMs are clinically depressed - before, during or after the A.

[Owl]

With figures cited of 1 in 4 people suffering some form of mental health issue, it would be unsurprising to find a high number of BOTH BS and WS with some emotional instability issues, of whatever description.

 

IME a large no of MMs are clinically depressed - before, during or after the A.

 

Odds are that MW's are too. My wife certainly was...it was a key factor in events that led up to her affair.

 

While I couldn't get her to do much about it prior to nor during her affair, I was able to INSIST that she seek treatment for it (both meds and IC as prescribed) as part of our reconciliation.

 

And I LOVE the comment her doctor made when she talked to him about our 'situation' and asked his thoughts on her being depressed. He said, "Well, if you weren't BEFORE all of this started, you certainly are NOW!". Going through d-day, being forced to choose which relationship to keep and which to let go, and then grieving the loss of that relationship...OF COURSE she was depressed at that point!

 

And I'm not claiming all BS's are saints, either. I've no doubt that there are some situations out there where the BS is a complete nutcase worthy of intense in-patient treatment. And can dealing with someone like that be a factor in someone going outside of a relationship??? CERTAINLY.

 

But just as everyone wants to point out that not every OW is a bunny-boiling cyber-stalker, travelling across the country in a space-suit diaper carrying a roll of duct tape, I want to point out that I don't believe that every BS out there is a 500lb abusive alchoholic in dire need of medication and therapy either.

[OWoman]

Odds are that MW's are too. My wife certainly was...it was a key factor in events that led up to her affair.

 

Probably more MWs than MMs, given that stats suggest M is better for men than women...

 

While I couldn't get her to do much about it prior to nor during her affair, I was able to INSIST that she seek treatment for it (both meds and IC as prescribed) as part of our reconciliation.

 

And I LOVE the comment her doctor made when she talked to him about our 'situation' and asked his thoughts on her being depressed. He said, "Well, if you weren't BEFORE all of this started, you certainly are NOW!". Going through d-day, being forced to choose which relationship to keep and which to let go, and then grieving the loss of that relationship...OF COURSE she was depressed at that point!

 

Yep. Good that you were able to insist on the treatment, though. My H insisted as a condition to taking his xW back after their separation, but when she bailed from MC and refused any other intervention, he didn't follow through by kicking her out. I'm not saying he should have done - it's pretty hard to do something like that when the kids are so freaked out - but it did ultimately sign the death warrant of their M.

 

And I'm not claiming all BS's are saints, either. I've no doubt that there are some situations out there where the BS is a complete nutcase worthy of intense in-patient treatment. And can dealing with someone like that be a factor in someone going outside of a relationship??? CERTAINLY.

 

But just as everyone wants to point out that not every OW is a bunny-boiling cyber-stalker, travelling across the country in a space-suit diaper carrying a roll of duct tape, I want to point out that I don't believe that every BS out there is a 500lb abusive alchoholic in dire need of medication and therapy either.

 

It only needs one BS not to be to negate the assertion that all are - and given how prevalent As are, I'm sure everyone knows at least one BS that doesn't meet those criteria

[SidLyon]

Probably more MWs than MMs, given that stats suggest M is better for men than women...

 

 

 

Yep. Good that you were able to insist on the treatment, though. My H insisted as a condition to taking his xW back after their separation, but when she bailed from MC and refused any other intervention, he didn't follow through by kicking her out. I'm not saying he should have done - it's pretty hard to do something like that when the kids are so freaked out - but it did ultimately sign the death warrant of their M.

 

 

 

It only needs one BS not to be to negate the assertion that all are - and given how prevalent As are, I'm sure everyone knows at least one BS that doesn't meet those criteria

 

 

Statistics are not supposed to be about absolutes. If it's the case that 100% of X has the quality Y, then that's not so much a statistic as a "'fact".

 

Statistics are just that, they make no statement about what is the case or what will happen in any given situation.

 

For example, the statistic might be quoted that only 3% of affairs result in marriage between the affair partners, and then 75% of those marriages don't last more than 10 years. If people then give numerous real life examples where marriages between APs have occurred and lasted more than 10 years this neither proves nor disproves the statistics.

 

PS I'm not saying that is the right statistic as I honestly don't know, but it is one I've often seen mentioned.

[NoIDidn't]

What I find interesting about OWoman's remarks is that is seeks to blame the cheating MPs depression on the BS. Given the same statistics and studies, I have to wonder why the number of depressed wives doesn't equal the number of cheating wives. I already know why, but its an interesting point when reading something that seems to blame the cheating on the depression caused by the person being cheated on.

 

I know the stats don't say who the mental unstable partner is, but I think its usually the WS. Mentally unstable people take far more than they give. And marriage therapists have agreed for years that the person most likely to cheat is the one with unrealistic views of what the marriage should bring to them, the one taking more than they give.

 

Also, most OW bring their own dysfunction and mental instability to the affair as well. So anyone insinuating that the BS is the only person that's the unstable does so only to further their own beliefs and not accurately reflecting reality.

[OWoman]

What I find interesting about OWoman's remarks is that is seeks to blame the cheating MPs depression on the BS.

 

Please point out where it did that? Projection, much...

[OWoman]

Statistics are not supposed to be about absolutes. If it's the case that 100% of X has the quality Y, then that's not so much a statistic as a "'fact".

 

I wasn't claiming the statistics to be absolutes - I was responding to Owl's assertion that not every BS was a ...(whatever) by pointing out that if only one didn't meet that criterion, then that assertion was necessarily false since it claimed that every single one was.

[pureinheart]

No, that is not what I am saying. People come to the BS' aid here. The infidelity is not expected, but everyone knows that it happens every now and then. And it is especially understood when love is in the equation.

 

Also no difference between women and men.

 

I believe long term affairs are much less common here. Generally an affair with deep emotional involvement will lead to a divorce.

 

There is also no word for homewrecker here. It is so common that children grow up with parents with shared custody, nobody reacts. Many children live every other week with their father, and every other week with their mother. The state backs up split families economically, so no real problem there either.

 

OP, I have not read the entire thread, although responding to Jennies reply due to identity.

 

My town is exactly what you describe here, and exactly what I experienced with my parents. My mother was not bitter...she was pissed because my dad screwed her on the house they owned together and pissed about how he was with money in general...but that is all I heard.

 

I visited my dad once a month (my choice), it could have been more, although I was very attached to my home...I had severe issues of leaving my home because my mother worked and I was with a babysitter a lot...I experienced home sickness quite frequently.

 

I was very shocked to hear on LS the hate, and I didn't understand it, of course the initial shock and dissilusionment is expected...in my town everyone moves on quite quickly and don't dwell on past infidelity.

[pureinheart]

Not so long ago I read an article about the levels of acceptance of infidelity in different countries. I'm sorry I can't find a reference now.

 

What I remember is that the levels of acceptance in Australia was one of the highest in the countries surveyed. On a par with Sweden in fact.

 

The way this translates in Australia is that we have a laid-back attitude to it, not that we accept it as inevitable and that BSs are not utterly devastate by it.

 

A practical example is that often I see advice on LS to a BS to "go to HR" for a workplace affair. I assume from this that most employers in the USA would frown on infidelity enough to take some action. In Australia it would be unusual for an employer to care terribly much about affairs between staff unless they involved a major fraud or misuse of employers' premises.

 

Thanks to those who gave me good wishes (on the forum and in PMs) on completing my LLB.

 

I have an interest in all things legal, and as it happens my first degree is in economics and statistics.

 

My company (international) could have cared less concerning workplace A's...everyone would have been fired at some point for the mostpart...now if AP's were caught kissing, they would have been repremanded...sex would be dismissal...not because of an A, but that was against company policy.

 

ExDM's exW and kids tried to get me fired...they laughed at them and asked me if exDM still worked there (he had in the past) because they wanted to fire him for what his family was trying to do to me.

[OWoman]

ExDM's exW and kids tried to get me fired...they laughed at them and asked me if exDM still worked there (he had in the past) because they wanted to fire him for what his family was trying to do to me.

 

A not-too-dissimilar thing happened to the BW of a xMM of mine. They both lost their jobs, their work permits and their visas and had to emigrate as a result.

[pureinheart]

I know that people recommend it but unless there are definite policies against marital affairs or dating in the company (and there are growing lawsuits against unlawful termination in regards to invasion of privacy and discrimination of marital status) the chances of termination aren't that likely.

 

So most companies will be annoyed at both parties for bring personal crap into the workplace but terminate? Really depends on how vital they are. They may transfer, they may terminate, they may ignore. The farther up the food chain, especially if it is a private company, the less likely anything will happen.

 

No not to the executive that got caught...BUT I can tell you first hand that the bottom, and midland of the food chain pay...2 solid days of ethics every year.

[pureinheart]

A not-too-dissimilar thing happened to the BW of a xMM of mine. They both lost their jobs, their work permits and their visas and had to emigrate as a result.

 

It has never made sense to me to bring "others" in to the situation...especially the workplaces...they are two separate entities IME, EVEN if the AP's work together.

 

In reading your reply I was validated concerning the reality of the loyalty my management had for all of us...it hit me really hard, thank you.