Lying with statistics

[jennie-jennie]

Here's the second link again:

 

http://www.penguin.ca/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9780143113294,00.html

 

"Compared to the citizens of just about every other nation, Americans are the least adept at having affairs, have the most trouble enjoying them, and suffer the most in their aftermath and Pamela Druckerman has the facts to prove it. The journalist's surprising findings include:

• Russian spouses don't count beach resort flings as infidelity

• South Africans consider drunkenness an adequate excuse for extramarital sex

• Japanese businessmen believe, "If you pay, it's not cheating."

 

Voyeuristic and packed with eyebrow-raising statistics and interviews, Lust in Translation is her funny and fact-filled world tour of infidelity that will give new meaning to the phrase 'practicing monogamy.'"

[Owl]

Jennie, I have an honest question. And it's not calling you out, just asking for a clarification on affairs as viewed in your culture.

 

You state that they're much more accepted in your culture, which is why your views on infidelity may well differ from those from other cultures.

 

I buy that.

 

But where I'm curious is how MM's wife's view would differ from those of us from other cultures.

 

If they're accepted in your culture...then it shouldn't be nearly the same kind of "betrayal" as the rest of it see it as, right? She'd likely be much more accepting of it, since it's an accepted part of the culture?

 

If not...why not?

 

If infidelity is accepted, then I'm not sure why she'd feel betrayed if he was with you, or hurt by his affair? Conversely...if you'd expect her to be hurt by the affair, then would that mean that affairs aren't as acceptable?

[jennie-jennie]

Honestly , this is ridiculous and lacking common sense. The book referenced defines itself as a HUMOROUS perspective.

 

In any event, it is primarily discussing Infidelity as Sex not Betrayal . In countries and cultures where Sex Or Relationships with the Opposite Sex are understood, condoned, or even expected....BOTH SPOUSES ARE GOOD WITH IT. There is sex without Betrayal. In Open Marriages...Both Spouses are good with it. No betrayal.

 

Sex is the smallest part of Infidelity: Betraying your spouse completely, covering up, pretending, lying, hurting, - those are the real results of infidelity. Which culture is good with that?

 

In my culture although the BSs suffer greatly here as well when an extramarital relationship is discovered, there is no/less need for the WSs and OPS to cover up their affair for friends, relatives and society in general.

[donnamaybe]

So it's only the people benefitting or who don't matter who accept it. M'kay.

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie, I have an honest question. And it's not calling you out, just asking for a clarification on affairs as viewed in your culture.

 

You state that they're much more accepted in your culture, which is why your views on infidelity may well differ from those from other cultures.

 

I buy that.

 

But where I'm curious is how MM's wife's view would differ from those of us from other cultures.

 

If they're accepted in your culture...then it shouldn't be nearly the same kind of "betrayal" as the rest of it see it as, right? She'd likely be much more accepting of it, since it's an accepted part of the culture?

 

If not...why not?

 

If infidelity is accepted, then I'm not sure why she'd feel betrayed if he was with you, or hurt by his affair? Conversely...if you'd expect her to be hurt by the affair, then would that mean that affairs aren't as acceptable?

 

As I just stated in the post above, the betrayal and devastation is as great for the BS here. Although one might wonder though, if my understanding of the OWs of my SO's also could be cultural. My understanding, already as the BS, of their actions as being the result of love. Also my understanding of my SO's infidelity the times they fell in love.

 

In the case of my MM's wife, she too is not born in my country. She too is from a different culture, so she does not share my moral views.

 

Being that she is from another culture does not change my stand, just like I do not expect her to change her stand because I am from another culture. You don't change your views because somebody else holds other views.

[Owl]

In my culture although the BSs suffer greatly here as well when an extramarital relationship is discovered, there is no/less need for the WSs and OPS to cover up their affair for friends, relatives and society in general.

 

Thanks for responding to my post and with this as well.

 

And like I said...this really is not calling you out or setting you up. I've travelled and lived in several other countries/cultures, I speak 3 languages conversationally and can "get by" in a couple others. I have an interest in different cultures as well as my "interest" in how infidleity works...so my curiousity here is genuine.

 

I'm curious...how is there less need to cover up/hide an affair, if the "impacts" are the same for the betrayed spouses?

 

If they're equally as devestated as in other cultures, then wouldn't WS and OW/OM have equal reason to hide the affair? What other reason is there to hide the affair? If you're thinking that there's less "dishonor" associated with the cheater in your culture versus another...how could you judge that?

 

This makes me wonder if there truly is such a significant difference in attitude towards infidelity between these cultures.

[Owl]

The more I think about this, the more I'm puzzled.

 

If the BS is equally as devestated by infidelity there as they are here...then it follows that they had the same expectation of monogamy and committment as well.

 

Which means that there couldn't be that major of a difference between the two cultures in how marriage in general is viewed either.

 

So I'm struggling with understanding how the view on infidelity between the two cultures would differ then.

[donnamaybe]

The more I think about this, the more I'm puzzled.

 

If the BS is equally as devestated by infidelity there as they are here...then it follows that they had the same expectation of monogamy and committment as well.

 

Which means that there couldn't be that major of a difference between the two cultures in how marriage in general is viewed either.

 

So I'm struggling with understanding how the view on infidelity between the two cultures would differ then.

Um, yeah. Doesn't EVERYONE have the potential to be a BS?

[WTFBBQ]

Are there a lot of lemmings in this country?

That is the only way I can swallow the "it's okay because everyone else does it" line of thought.

[NoIDidn't]

The more I think about this, the more I'm puzzled.

 

If the BS is equally as devestated by infidelity there as they are here...then it follows that they had the same expectation of monogamy and committment as well.

 

Which means that there couldn't be that major of a difference between the two cultures in how marriage in general is viewed either.

 

So I'm struggling with understanding how the view on infidelity between the two cultures would differ then.

 

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think those claiming cultural differences are being dishonest (not saying that you or anyone else said that).

 

I am married to a man from another culture. Infidelity is accepted in his culture overall, but only for men. The women that are betrayed are to tolerate it.

 

I think this is what Jennie is saying. The W is hurt and betrayed, but no one is going to come to her aid because the H's cheating was to be expected one day. Its hoped that he won't. But its tolerated that he didn't.

 

Its about the unfairness of it all. The most interesting thing in these cultures is that these guys would literally kill their fathers for cheating on their mothers. My ex, from the same country, attempted to kill his father when he was blatantly cheating on his mother. But, my ex also cheats like its going out of style and sees absolutely nothing wrong with his doing so.

 

Its a character defect that I've never completely understood. Its not okay for his father to do it to his mother, but its okay for him to do it to each of his wives (subsequent wives, they leave when he gets caught cheating).

[donnamaybe]

Are there a lot of lemmings in this country?

That is the only way I can swallow the "it's okay because everyone else does it" line of thought.

Everyone else, until they become a BS, then they are no longer one of the "everyone else." So if cheating is so prevalent there will soon be lots of BS's, and if the BS's hate it just as much there as anywhere else, then soon NO ONE will like it.

 

So confusing.

[OWoman]

The more I think about this, the more I'm puzzled.

 

If the BS is equally as devestated by infidelity there as they are here...then it follows that they had the same expectation of monogamy and committment as well.

 

Which means that there couldn't be that major of a difference between the two cultures in how marriage in general is viewed either.

 

So I'm struggling with understanding how the view on infidelity between the two cultures would differ then.

 

Owl, I know this was addressed to Jen in the context of her culture, but reflecting on it in the context of women from my country cited by Jen earlier... I think there is a disjuncture between what they hope for with their heart, and what their cynicism / realism / head tells them is likely to happen, based on what they see around them and what they grew up with in their own homes. They hope their own Ms will be different, but they suspect that they, too, will be betrayed as their mothers, sisters, friends and colleagues have been. They know it's common, accepted practice (at least, among the men; and by inference, among the women who put up with it) but they still hope desperately their own Ms will break that mould, and that their H will be faithful. And, likely, some are - since the As are kept from the Ws by mutual agreement, as a mark of respect to the Ws, they'd never know if he was being faithful; they'd only know if he was unfaithful and slipped up in keeping it hidden (or didn't respect his BW enough to bother to hide if from her, flaunting his GF/s in front of her so she couldn't but notice).

 

So it does hurt them deeply if they do find out their H has been unfaithful. Especially because he hasn't been careful enough to keep it hidden from her - showing that he doesn't respect her enough to care that she knows.

 

Cultures are seldom homogeneous. Men's avid acceptance of their "right" to have As doesn't necessarily translate into their BWs' avid acceptance of their H's "right"to have As. But their relative positions of status / power / control / agency leave these women accepting with resignation that it is "part of the deal". It's not what they would choose; but what they would choose (a faithful H, who was in other ways still traditional and practiced the "old ways") isn't on offer, so they must take what is if they want to M. (Or choose the role of GF, if they want a position with more options. Or find a partner outside of their culture...)

[NoIDidn't]

Also, the cultures I have in mind are very patriarchal. Male chauvinist-type cultures. If the women get caught cheating, its okay to immediately divorce them, beat them, or kill them (an oversimplification on my part).

 

Why anyone would attempt to make it appear that such a culture is superior or more evolved than one where EVERYONE has the "right" to cheat and not be vilified is interesting.

[jennie-jennie]

Thanks for responding to my post and with this as well.

 

And like I said...this really is not calling you out or setting you up. I've travelled and lived in several other countries/cultures, I speak 3 languages conversationally and can "get by" in a couple others. I have an interest in different cultures as well as my "interest" in how infidleity works...so my curiousity here is genuine.

 

I'm curious...how is there less need to cover up/hide an affair, if the "impacts" are the same for the betrayed spouses?

 

If they're equally as devestated as in other cultures, then wouldn't WS and OW/OM have equal reason to hide the affair? What other reason is there to hide the affair? If you're thinking that there's less "dishonor" associated with the cheater in your culture versus another...how could you judge that?

 

This makes me wonder if there truly is such a significant difference in attitude towards infidelity between these cultures.

 

There is of course the same need to cover up the affair for the BS, or is there really, I find myself questioning what I am writing the moment I write it. In my experience even the WS often does not go to the same extent to hide the affair, which then in turn causes multiple Ddays.

 

But anyway, what I was mostly getting at is that there is less dishonor associated with having an affair, thus the openness about it towards your friends (those who are closer to you than to the BS) is greater.

 

I judge it the only way I can, from my own experience as a BS, WS and OW, and from what I have heard others say.

 

I can sincerely say that I was shocked when I understood the vast difference in attitude was towards infidelity and marriage in my MM's culture and mine. I did not expect it to be so great.

[donnamaybe]

Also, the cultures I have in mind are very patriarchal. Male chauvinist-type cultures. If the women get caught cheating, its okay to immediately divorce them, beat them, or kill them (an oversimplification on my part).

 

Why anyone would attempt to make it appear that such a culture is superior or more evolved than one where EVERYONE has the "right" to cheat and not be vilified is interesting.

So women in that country just roll over and accept that kind of chauvenistic, sexist attitude?

 

Oh, wow.

[Owl]

Thanks NID, Owoman, and JJ for the clarifications. And after I'd posted, I stopped and thought about the possibility of the distinction being made by gender. I've been in Central and South American countries where I could see exactly what NID described...it might be acceptable for a man to do it (he might even be patted on the back for it by his friends), but a cheating wife is in DEEP trouble.

 

And in those same cultures...the wife is no less 'devestated' by the affair, but forced to accept it as it's out of her control.

 

Good conversation...and thanks again!

[jennie-jennie]

The more I think about this, the more I'm puzzled.

 

If the BS is equally as devestated by infidelity there as they are here...then it follows that they had the same expectation of monogamy and committment as well.

 

Which means that there couldn't be that major of a difference between the two cultures in how marriage in general is viewed either.

 

So I'm struggling with understanding how the view on infidelity between the two cultures would differ then.

 

Disclaimer: what's stated below is generalizations and do not apply to all people here, but it is my experience of what is most common.

 

We often do not marry. If we marry, it is more as a feast, just like baptism has now lost its religious meaning, and most kids get confirmed for the gifts not for the religious education.

 

We do expect monogamy and commitment, but we are aware that serial monogamy is what is most prevalent here. We don't believe there is only one true love, neither do we count on marriage or common-law marriage to necessarily last a lifetime.

 

There is no word for commitment in my language. That says a lot IMO.

[jennie-jennie]

I think this is what Jennie is saying. The W is hurt and betrayed' date=' but no one is going to come to her aid because the H's cheating was to be expected one day. Its hoped that he won't. But its tolerated that he didn't.[/quote']

 

No, that is not what I am saying. People come to the BS' aid here. The infidelity is not expected, but everyone knows that it happens every now and then. And it is especially understood when love is in the equation.

 

Also no difference between women and men.

 

I believe long term affairs are much less common here. Generally an affair with deep emotional involvement will lead to a divorce.

 

There is also no word for homewrecker here. It is so common that children grow up with parents with shared custody, nobody reacts. Many children live every other week with their father, and every other week with their mother. The state backs up split families economically, so no real problem there either.

[OWoman]

So women in that country just roll over and accept that kind of chauvenistic, sexist attitude?

 

Oh, wow.

 

I can't speak for NID's H's country (not knowing what it is ) but thinking of the women from those cultures in my country - the traditionalists do, yes. That is their culture, and they embrace it deeply as their "lot in life". There are posters on LS from western cultures who hold similar views about the relative status of men vs women, so it's not endemic to "other" cultures only. Many - or most - cultures have deeply patriarchal roots, even if their modern incarnations don't reflect that to the same extent... but the traditionalists will choose to be faithful to those "old" views.

 

Modernists try to challenge and change, and some meet with some success within their modernist circles. Others simply choose men from outside their culture for their romantic Rs, even at the risk of losing their cultural ties.

 

And of course, there are always those women who "fight" back...

[NoIDidn't]

So women in that country just roll over and accept that kind of chauvenistic, sexist attitude?

 

Oh, wow.

 

I'm not from his country, but I can say that not all the women accept it. His aunt was one such woman, but her mother (his grandmother) accepted it (by staying married to the father) from her father. They've told me the family history, but I'm not going to put it all here. The aunt divorced her H and came to the States afterwards. It would have been too hard to stay in her country as a single mother.

 

But the women certainly don't just roll over and accept it. The ones that are brave enough divorce the cheating Hs. Many have their own extremely secret affairs since their Hs are frequently away from home.

 

I don't think cultures where infidelity is reportedly "more accepted" actually accept it at all. Its just that they accept MEN doing it. Its cool to be the OW. A W cheating would be considered a slut/whore, an ungrateful one at that.

[NoIDidn't]

No, that is not what I am saying. People come to the BS' aid here. The infidelity is not expected, but everyone knows that it happens every now and then. And it is especially understood when love is in the equation.

 

Also no difference between women and men.

 

I believe long term affairs are much less common here. Generally an affair with deep emotional involvement will lead to a divorce.

 

There is also no word for homewrecker here. It is so common that children grow up with parents with shared custody, nobody reacts. Many children live every other week with their father, and every other week with their mother. The state backs up split families economically, so no real problem there either.

 

You're right. I shouldn't have said "expected" even though I quantified it with "one day". Every couple normally expects monogamy, but infidelity is not ignored as a possibility. They don't deny that it happens. But the term "homewrecker" very much exists in my H's country. Its also pretty accepted to a degree that the W might attack the OW if the opportunity arose. So cultural differences abound.

 

But, yes, I agree with you on that point and that long-term affairs are less common, and that one would lead to a divorce. My GF from France knew her father was with the neighbor was 15 years. Her parents divorced. Dad never married the neighbor though. She was already married, until her H found out as well.

 

I do see a problem with the state picking up the tab for a family breaking apart, but that's a political conversation.

[NoIDidn't]

I can't speak for NID's H's country (not knowing what it is ) but thinking of the women from those cultures in my country - the traditionalists do, yes. That is their culture, and they embrace it deeply as their "lot in life". There are posters on LS from western cultures who hold similar views about the relative status of men vs women, so it's not endemic to "other" cultures only. Many - or most - cultures have deeply patriarchal roots, even if their modern incarnations don't reflect that to the same extent... but the traditionalists will choose to be faithful to those "old" views.

 

Modernists try to challenge and change, and some meet with some success within their modernist circles. Others simply choose men from outside their culture for their romantic Rs, even at the risk of losing their cultural ties.

 

And of course, there are always those women who "fight" back...

 

I have to agree with this. Being from the South in the US, women are brought up to be "traditionalists" and accept whatever "lot in life" they get from a H. That's precisely why I married out of my culture.

 

But I didn't think it out too well, obviously. LOL.

 

And yet, I'm pretty traditional still. I can understand both sides of this deal for the wives.

[SidLyon]

Not so long ago I read an article about the levels of acceptance of infidelity in different countries. I'm sorry I can't find a reference now.

 

What I remember is that the levels of acceptance in Australia was one of the highest in the countries surveyed. On a par with Sweden in fact.

 

The way this translates in Australia is that we have a laid-back attitude to it, not that we accept it as inevitable and that BSs are not utterly devastate by it.

 

A practical example is that often I see advice on LS to a BS to "go to HR" for a workplace affair. I assume from this that most employers in the USA would frown on infidelity enough to take some action. In Australia it would be unusual for an employer to care terribly much about affairs between staff unless they involved a major fraud or misuse of employers' premises.

 

Thanks to those who gave me good wishes (on the forum and in PMs) on completing my LLB.

 

I have an interest in all things legal, and as it happens my first degree is in economics and statistics.

[NoIDidn't]

A practical example is that often I see advice on LS to a BS to "go to HR" for a workplace affair. I assume from this that most employers in the USA would frown on infidelity enough to take some action. In Australia it would be unusual for an employer to care terribly much about affairs between staff unless they involved a major fraud or misuse of employers' premises.

 

Congrats on your LLB as well. Forgot to mention that before.

 

I have to say that I've never seen someone give that advice to a BS. That's about the worst advice I've ever heard because unless you work at a church, that's the easy way to get your spouse fired for not being able to keep work and home life separate.

 

People are vehemently against infidelity in the US, but that doesn't translate into your job wanting to step in and do anything about it.

 

Wow. Glad I didn't see that. I would have asked if the person recommending that was serious because it wouldn't help. It would help if the OP and AP worked together and one of them ratted the other out. But not for a spouse.

[bentnotbroken]

Congrats on your LLB as well. Forgot to mention that before.

 

I have to say that I've never seen someone give that advice to a BS. That's about the worst advice I've ever heard because unless you work at a church, that's the easy way to get your spouse fired for not being able to keep work and home life separate.

 

People are vehemently against infidelity in the US, but that doesn't translate into your job wanting to step in and do anything about it.

 

Wow. Glad I didn't see that. I would have asked if the person recommending that was serious because it wouldn't help. It would help if the OP and AP worked together and one of them ratted the other out. But not for a spouse.

 

 

 

Ditto congrats Syd.