fooled once Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 The bottom line is that you can go out and find a study that supports what you want it to say on pretty much anything...there are enough studies done out there that are completely biased or conducted so un-scientifcally that the 'data' they present is so far skewed from reality as to be completely ludicrous. Or...you can even do like most of these "studies" do, conduct your own study and just flat out lie about the results. Or, even better...you can always just flat out ignore statistics anyway, and hope that you're one of the "lucky few". Great post, as usual, OWL!!! the bottom line is you can be evidence ignorant or not. You can choose to ignore all studies because you say they don't apply to me. or you can grasp the idea that statistics apply to populations and are the best tool we have for making hard decisions like: should birth control be available If you don't understand how evidence can help inform decision and go beyond anecdote and heartfelt pleas, i am very worried. Wow - so much venom from an alleged "newbie". And quite snarky too. FYI, not everyone has to view statistics as you do and there is no need to be rude. this is admitting defeat. Homosexuality and child abuse are much more difficult to address than infidelity. That doesn't mean you give up and go home. We have very good evidence that many really, good nice kind people are unfaithful; that infidelity often ends in really happy sucessful relations and why should we just say this is peanuts? we know 50% of marriages end we know 64% of marriages experience infidelity lovers and mistresses are not serial killers and child molesters..anything more than 59% of americans do is normal. Get over it. I'm sorry, but where is this 'evidence' that you speak of? Nice people are unfaithful? Is that your opinion? Because in my view, nice people don't cheat. And where is this other "evidence" that infidelity OFTEN ends in really happy successful relations? Really. Where is this evidence? Because you know of a friend who was a cheater, left to be with the AP and they are happy now? I would be that OFTEN those that cheat don't end up in a happy happy relationship. Just look at this site alone - RARELY do cheaters end up with their AP. I mean, we have some here who have been the mistress for YEARS and there is no light at the end of the tunnel, because the cheater is so conflicted. Which to mean we equal the cheater isn't that invested in the mistress. Can you also show me the evidence that 64% of marriages experience infidelity? Because in my circle of friends, only 1 person had an affair and guess what -- it was an AFFAIR and they didn't not end up together. Maybe in your country being in an affair is normal, and everybody does it. That isn't my experience at all. lovers and mistresses are not serial killers and child molesters..anything more than 59% of americans do is normal. Get over it What? Are you saying lovers/mistresses have never been serial killers or child molesters? And where again is your evidence of this? I would bet at least ONE cheater has killed someone and I would bet at least 1 cheater has been a child molester. So unfortunately, your statistics aren't accurate. what does "anything more than 59% of Americans do is normal" mean? That sentence doesn't even make sense. And again, the snarky "get over it" comment because someone (not sure who) has upset you because they think your statistics are garbage. Not everyone has to believe your statistics. Sounds like you are adamant that people must take your statistics are fact. They aren't If we put statistics apart, there are so many barriers/factors that explain why only a few APs/MAPs end up in a long-lasting relationship : Single AP : - Thrown under the bus, thus pain and resentment. - No more trusting MM/MW thus no more wanting a R with them. Married AP : - No motivation to leave the M - The guilt of leaving spouses and family overweights the love for OP. - Wanting to give the kids a 2 parents family - Preserving Lifestyle, standard of living. - And if divorce, long process, indecisiveness and guilt. Experience has shown that even those MAP who move out and go to live with their OP, are full of guilt, inconsistent feelings, go back and forth between BS and OP which makes life a hell to both. Some WS end up blaming the fOP for wrecking their marriage. It is much more possible in reality that both MAP and OP end up finding someone else rather than settle together. Because it is easier to start a scratch new relationship that one with emotional baggage. I have thought a lot about MW which I loved and I still miss. We hadn't a clear closure. She made me believe that if we weren't together it was my fault (distance) and that because her H is a good father. She may as well end up divorced in 1 year or 2 and come to contact me but 1/ I don't know if I want her back, 2/ and I may be with someone else. So that's why it is not impossible but it is very difficult that APs end up together. Statistics are not crazy EXCELLENT post East!! I think this should read: I'm sure that many, even most, MAPs experience conflict over leaving the M to be with their AP, but not all oscillate between the two to the extent you describe. If they're that conflicted, it suggests they're not really ready to leave, and could benefit from some good IC to help them find their way, one way or another. Perhaps if you're not really that much in love with your AP. Perhaps if your A is an exit A. Or perhaps if you yourself are so anti-A that your disgust rubs off on how you view your AP... I'm sure there are scenarios where this is possible. But it is certainly not the rule. If you fall in love with someone - proper love, not just enjoying how they make you feel - then that is the person you want to be with. Not someone else who comes along with fewer "bad associations" or someone your family might be more approving of. If you can transfer your "love" and emotional commitment and loyalty that easily from one to another, then it wasn't proper love. So what about all these wafflers who keep the mistress waiting for years? Going by what you wrote (and yes, I read it) since the cheater MM hasn't made a decision, then he must not properly love his mistress, correct? I mean, come on....if someone loves another person, they want to be with them "proper". So what do you make of a cheater not being with his mistress? I know what you mean, but that's not what you are saying. People are objecting to equating those two killers (who were religious nuts) to people that believe that marriage is sacred and holy. Its actually pretty insulting, and an oversimplification. Just because they were religious doesn't make all religious people equal to them. They broke the law. Marriage is not against the law. Supporting marriage is not against the law. Supporting marriage is not the same as support murder. Why are you relating the two based on the tenuous link of "religion"? Also, I'm sure you are using "constitutional" in terms of personal and inherent rights to individuals (adjective) and not the legal documents of states and nations. You know how Americans can get when they see that word. LOL. Its practically a religion to itself. Statistics too. Agreed. And the continual belittle of "Americans" is getting old. we get it OW, you don't like the US. Great. No one said you have to. But the digs at Americans is rude, IMHO. Great post NiD. I agree with you.
Got it Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 Statistics are bs. Here is one whom never followed the rules and bucked the assumption that affair partners don't end up together.
Fieldsofgold Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 Statistics are bs. Here is one whom never followed the rules and bucked the assumption that affair partners don't end up together. I have to agree with this. As I posted previously, my xH married his OW. In fact, he married (and divorced) six of them. (I used to say he married all his OW, but that's not true. There were others that he didn't marry.)
Got it Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 So he had six affairs while being married to others and divorced them and married the next OW. Or he married 6 women after you with one or more being OW? Seems like your ex has a lot of time, money, energy and plain stupidity on his hands.
Fieldsofgold Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 So he had six affairs while being married to others and divorced them and married the next OW. Or he married 6 women after you with one or more being OW? Seems like your ex has a lot of time, money, energy and plain stupidity on his hands. I was his first wife, and never his other woman (to the best of my knowledge!) He had affairs each time he married, and each time, he divorced the current wife (who had been his OW), to marry one of his then-current OW. And yes, he was stupid to leave a sweetheart like me. And I was stupid for not recognizing his defective character, and giving my heart to him in the first place. But we live, and hopefully, learn.
Mimolicious Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 I think we are talking at cross purposes. I was referring to your comment that it was ignorant for someone not to know much about America. Implicit in your comment was the expectation that non-American people ought to know about it. Sorry if I misread. Having studied constitutional law I probably know more than the average non-American about America's Constitution but I don't think it's especially important for non-Americans to know so much about it. Edited to add: I really wish Australians knew as much about our Constitution as most Americans know about theirs. By the way, having recently received my final results I can now call myself a lawyer. :bunny:YIPPIE!!!!!!!!!!!! CONGRATST SYD!!! That is big buddy! Wish you many many years of success is such a hectic but rewarding field. *CHEERS!* Sorry for the T/J But this deserves is! To the rest of your reply- it's not solely an attack on "Americana". LOL!
donnamaybe Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 I love these wild claims by skin cream and cosmetic manufacturers... they make claims, then the small print at the base of the screen reads something like - (78% of 50 women agreed....) That's 39. What about the other 21.....? Sorr for the OT, but... Does 39 and 21 really equal 50?
Mimolicious Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 Actually' date=' in fairness to OWoman, I was the one that brought up Americans. We Americans have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "constitution" and her usage of it in parentheses could have gone either way - as in personal constitution vs legal document outlining the rights affirmed for individuals by the government.[/quote'] It's not the first time that comments towards Lady Liberty have been made in the manner of "It's a good thing" I don't know much about Americans, as if it would keep anyone's sanity or something. Anyway...
Mimolicious Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 I kinda feel responsible for injecting this topic into the thread. Soooo...LOL....in fairness to Mimo as well, I think she was referring to a specific part of OWoman's statement that her ignorance of America and things American was "a good thing". Ignorance about something is okay. Pride concerning that ignorance is not usually considered okay. Yes, thank you.
donnamaybe Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 I'm no expert on Americana or Americans, and that's probably a good thing. Yeah, I have to agree. This is just another dig at the US. There is nothing in the above that says the claim to not be an expert is the good thing. Rather, it's merely not knowing PERIOD that's said to be a good thing. And this is only one of many times I've seen the digs. Not good. Not good at all. Every country has it's pros and cons. It's called DIVERSITY people. We're supposed to appreciate and TRY to understand our differences. Not villify them.
Mimolicious Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 I didn't claim to be ignorant. That was injected by Mimo. I claimed I was not an expert - which I'm not - and I do think that is a good thing (whatever anyone may feel about that). I don't think it's fitting for someone from outside who's never set foot in a place, and unlikely ever will, to claim to be an expert on it. I think that that would be ignorant![/QUOTE] I'm fluent in Italian, never been to Italy. Is that ignorant? Thank G*d for Google nowadays. We don't have to limit our knowledge based on out frequent flyer miles... But I know, I know... I know the drill here. If you havent been through it yourself, you don't know better. Glad to see some people take it to heart. So statistically speaking, the ratio of valid opinions/advice in LS is 1 out of 10.
Fieldsofgold Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 (edited) Yeah, I have to agree. This is just another dig at the US. There is nothing in the above that says the claim to not be an expert is the good thing. Rather, it's merely not knowing PERIOD that's said to be a good thing. And this is only one of many times I've seen the digs. Not good. Not good at all. Every country has it's pros and cons. It's called DIVERSITY people. We're supposed to appreciate and TRY to understand our differences. Not villify them. It's always interesting to me how individuals who have directly or indirectly benefitted from the sacrifices and generosity of Americans, can regard us, individually and collectively as Americans, with contempt. Wie schnell sie vergessen. Edited December 10, 2010 by Fieldsofgold
Snowflower Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 Love, heartbreak, joy, loss, happiness, despair, etc. are all universal human emotions. It doesn't matter what culture we come from or how whether our government views marriage as legal contract or a religious one. As humans, we all feel those emotions and we are very much the same no matter where we live on the globe. IMO, when someone throws the grenade "well in my culture this is how it is" or "well you are from (fill in the blank) so you would have that view" it is simply a way to muddy the waters and distract people from the issue at hand.
jennie-jennie Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 Love, heartbreak, joy, loss, happiness, despair, etc. are all universal human emotions. It doesn't matter what culture we come from or how whether our government views marriage as legal contract or a religious one. As humans, we all feel those emotions and we are very much the same no matter where we live on the globe. IMO, when someone throws the grenade "well in my culture this is how it is" or "well you are from (fill in the blank) so you would have that view" it is simply a way to muddy the waters and distract people from the issue at hand. Am I correct in supposing that you have never had a long term relationship with someone from a culture quite different than your own? I have. That's why I know that the culture clash of different values can weigh heavily on such a relationship. It is a very strong influencing factor, and not at all just "simply a way to muddy the waters and distract people from the issue at hand". I thought I knew and understood my MM's culture. Now I know that before our relationship I had just scraped the surface of it.
Snowflower Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 I;m not sure that is what snowflower meant. I may be wrong, but what i got out of what she wrote is that different people on here use their cultural norms as a way to try and interject their views on others and validate their own actions. (e.g.- some people say that affairs are accepted in their culture so that makes them okay. Maybe this is true, maybe not I don't know as I am not an expert of the culture of every other country. I can only speak to my own culture and say that in my culture, affairs are not considered okay, and trying to get people to accept them by saying "but in MY culture they are fine" is almost a kind of "reverse cultural relativism". There are some things that other cultures/religions feel are acceptable, and just because they do does not make them acceptable to other cultures-e.g.-stoning a wife to death because the committed adultery, forced female genital mutilation, making homosexuality a crime, etc.) FS, Thank you for expanding on my post; it dovetails well with what I was trying to say. Again, our emotions are part of being human and doesn't have to do with cultures. Let's take, for instance, the ending of a relationship. It hurts like crazy and it has nothing to do with what culture/country one lives in. It just hurts. The "cultural differences" argument is a way to validate/justify a completely different issue.
BB07 Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 FS, Thank you for expanding on my post; it dovetails well with what I was trying to say. Again, our emotions are part of being human and doesn't have to do with cultures. Let's take, for instance, the ending of a relationship. It hurts like crazy and it has nothing to do with what culture/country one lives in. It just hurts. The "cultural differences" argument is a way to validate/justify a completely different issue. I'd like to add.......or try to make someone feel less than or try to make themselves seem as superior.
Mimolicious Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 I;m not sure that is what snowflower meant. I may be wrong, but what i got out of what she wrote is that different people on here use their cultural norms as a way to try and interject their views on others and validate their own actions. (e.g.- some people say that affairs are accepted in their culture so that makes them okay. Maybe this is true, maybe not I don't know as I am not an expert of the culture of every other country. I can only speak to my own culture and say that in my culture, affairs are not considered okay, and trying to get people to accept them by saying "but in MY culture they are fine" is almost a kind of "reverse cultural relativism". There are some things that other cultures/religions feel are acceptable, and just because they do does not make them acceptable to other cultures-e.g.-stoning a wife to death because the committed adultery, forced female genital mutilation, making homosexuality a crime, etc.) For the subjects sake- How many cultures really embrace affairs? What's the ratio and which one are they? People are survey savvy's here. Find us one that highlights this. Thank you in advance.
jennie-jennie Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 I;m not sure that is what snowflower meant. I may be wrong, but what i got out of what she wrote is that different people on here use their cultural norms as a way to try and interject their views on others and validate their own actions. (e.g.- some people say that affairs are accepted in their culture so that makes them okay. Maybe this is true, maybe not I don't know as I am not an expert of the culture of every other country. I can only speak to my own culture and say that in my culture, affairs are not considered okay, and trying to get people to accept them by saying "but in MY culture they are fine" is almost a kind of "reverse cultural relativism". There are some things that other cultures/religions feel are acceptable, and just because they do does not make them acceptable to other cultures-e.g.-stoning a wife to death because the committed adultery, forced female genital mutilation, making homosexuality a crime, etc.) I understand what you are saying and agree. Yet being from a different culture where affairs are accepted is a valid argument IMO for making them okay for that particular poster who is her-/himself from that culture. No culture owns the absolute right moral view which apply to all others.
jennie-jennie Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 For the subjects sake- How many cultures really embrace affairs? What's the ratio and which one are they? People are survey savvy's here. Find us one that highlights this. Thank you in advance. http://www.alternet.org/sex/81022/ "The following is an excerpt from "Lust in Translation: Infidelity from Tokyo to Tennessee" (Penguin Books, 2007) by Pamela Druckerman."
jennie-jennie Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 FS, Thank you for expanding on my post; it dovetails well with what I was trying to say. Again, our emotions are part of being human and doesn't have to do with cultures. Let's take, for instance, the ending of a relationship. It hurts like crazy and it has nothing to do with what culture/country one lives in. It just hurts. The "cultural differences" argument is a way to validate/justify a completely different issue. I don't think I agree with this. Mixed up in the ending of a relationship is the perception of if you have been treated fairly or not in the relationship, and your perception of this will be influenced by cultural aspects of how you expect to be treated in a relationship. Take for example the girlfriends to MM in OWoman's home country who know they are always going to remain girlfriends. They will not be disappointed that the relationship never led to marriage. They may grieve the relationship as such when it ends, but will not feel fooled that the relationship never led to exclusivity.
jennie-jennie Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 I'd like to add.......or try to make someone feel less than or try to make themselves seem as superior. This can also be in the eye of the beholder. I know I posted once something about the view in my country being "wider". This was a poorly chosen word, but I did not intend it to be insulting or degrading. Yet that is exactly how it was perceived, and I got an infraction for it. Looking in the rear mirror, I should definitely have chosen another word. Sorry for that, guys and gals.
2sure Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 http://www.alternet.org/sex/81022/ "The following is an excerpt from "Lust in Translation: Infidelity from Tokyo to Tennessee" (Penguin Books, 2007) by Pamela Druckerman." Honestly , this is ridiculous and lacking common sense. The book referenced defines itself as a HUMOROUS perspective. In any event, it is primarily discussing Infidelity as Sex not Betrayal . In countries and cultures where Sex Or Relationships with the Opposite Sex are understood, condoned, or even expected....BOTH SPOUSES ARE GOOD WITH IT. There is sex without Betrayal. In Open Marriages...Both Spouses are good with it. No betrayal. Sex is the smallest part of Infidelity: Betraying your spouse completely, covering up, pretending, lying, hurting, - those are the real results of infidelity. Which culture is good with that?
Mimolicious Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 (edited) http://www.alternet.org/sex/81022/ "The following is an excerpt from "Lust in Translation: Infidelity from Tokyo to Tennessee" (Penguin Books, 2007) by Pamela Druckerman." Bebe, the article in alternet is not talking about affairs being "accepted" by cultures. It's actually very "sexually" infused. I thought affairs were more than frequent booty calls, no? The second link is blocked from my work pc. Thanks though. Edited December 10, 2010 by Mimolicious
jennie-jennie Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 http://www.alternet.org/sex/81022/ "The following is an excerpt from "Lust in Translation: Infidelity from Tokyo to Tennessee" (Penguin Books, 2007) by Pamela Druckerman." I have in the past many times used the term "parallel relationships" on LS. I haven't heard it used in my own country, but I thought it was interesting that this article mentioned this term as being used in a nearby country. I can't believe that is a coincidence. It tells something about the culture of the countries around here, about how we view extramarital relationships.
jennie-jennie Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 Bebe, the article in alternet is not talking about affairs being "accepted" by cultures. It's actually very "sexually" infused. I thought affairs were more than frequent booty calls, no? The second link is blocked from my work pc. Thanks though. Yet an example of how two individuals can interpret the same words very differently.
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