Making sense of it all

[spice4life]

I have to say I'm liking your posts ASPIE....I would have to agree with this...being a WS now divorced my xW was pretty head strong and abusive. Yes she got pregnant and yes I was convinced to get married. At the end of my 21 year marriage I was just that...felt trapped, diminished, bullied and thought my only option was to stayed married.

 

You know, this is exactly how I felt in my marriage. So if it can happen to women, it can also happen to men too. It makes sense. There is a lot of responsibilty with getting married and it should never be about being forced to or about what's "socially acceptable". When two people marry they are BOTH responsible for maintaining and evolving the marriage.

 

Confused4now, I was right where you were in my marriage and now I wouldn't marry unless I was certain the relationship had the potential to evolve. There is no way I would ever trap myself like that again.

 

ASPIE, this is good stuff. I can see that it isn't always about the MM being a liar etc. I do have a question for you though? What are you going to do if your MM can't muster up enough courage to leave? Are you going to allow the A to continue status quo? And what type of relationship do you have with him - is it open and honest communication?

[calliope]

and so we get the lie of all lies."If he was unhappy why didn't he get demand a divorce?" And the fact that he didn't gives you the eternal moral high ground

 

Nonsense, He was made so unhappy by the marriage that he had to seek elsewhere and in doing that he realised his wife was a vicious, controlling, stupid, demanding woman, and then he committed elsewhere.

I believe that some people just don't realize they're with the wrong person until the right one comes along. I realize now that's what happened w/my ex. I'm pretty sure he's still with his OW 10 yrs later.

[WTFBBQ]

sigh i find reincarnations soooo boring.

Sooooo boring. Thought this one claimed to have married her prize, though. Interesting ain't it that she really didn't!

Maybe the one who said that MM NEVEREVEREVEREVER slept with his W. Hard to make kiddies that way.

 

in case we are losing the plot

 

married man===soul mate

affair===happy happy happy

bw==bitter but lets hope she gets better

you==?? humbug

Edited December 8, 2010 by WTFBBQ

[NoIDidn't]

I wouldn't counsel any woman to be with a man that just blames all his problems on his previous relationship. Too immature.

 

If he does it to one, he will do it to the other.

 

Question is, if this guy starts to blame his unhappiness and guilt, and the alienation from his kids on the OW, is she going to be honest and come back and ask for help on dealing with it? Or is she going to start blaming the stbxW for that as well?

[OWoman]

no offense, but if the married guy you are seeing didn't want kids, he could have trotted himself on down to the doctors and had a small operation that would have prevented their arrival. Barring that, he could have abstained, worn a condom when they had sex, or found some other ways.

 

On this - my H also didn't want kids. Did he rush off to have a vasectomy? No. Why not? Hmm - maybe he didn't want someone that close to his dangly bits with a scalpel. I didn't want kids either. Did I rush off and get my tubes tied? No. I wasn't too keen on someone messing around my insides with a scalpel either. Some of us trusted the contraceptive statistics - I was on the Pill when I fell pregnant (and yes, I took it every day, did not have diarrhoea or vomiting, was not on antibiotics... It just failed.) despite its 99% effectiveness rate. My H's W was allegedly on the Pill when she fell pregnant - or so she claimed, though she did later tell someone she put them under her tongue and spat them out when he wasn't looking, so it seems like a straight case of deceit.

 

As for wearing a condom every time you have sex - if you're M, your MP would feel very insulted if you insisted on their (or your, if you're the H) wearing a condom each time. They'd wonder what you're accusing them of - or what you've been up to. (And yes, women wanting to fall pregnant have been known to sabotage condoms too... Not that they really needed to - it's only relatively recently that the effectiveness of condoms has risen above 75%, thanks to research to improve them due to HIV/AIDS. That suggests that if you have sex more than four times, you're likely to fall pregnant...)

[NoIDidn't]

Truth be told, all this harping on the guy saying he didn't want kids or a SAHM for a W, sounds like he is leaving the marriage because of the kids and the role of father and provider that he doesn't want to have to play.

 

He doesn't sound like a catch for either woman.

[greengoddess]

On this - my H also didn't want kids. Did he rush off to have a vasectomy? No. Why not? Hmm - maybe he didn't want someone that close to his dangly bits with a scalpel. I didn't want kids either. Did I rush off and get my tubes tied? No. I wasn't too keen on someone messing around my insides with a scalpel either. Some of us trusted the contraceptive statistics - I was on the Pill when I fell pregnant (and yes, I took it every day, did not have diarrhoea or vomiting, was not on antibiotics... It just failed.) despite its 99% effectiveness rate. My H's W was allegedly on the Pill when she fell pregnant - or so she claimed, though she did later tell someone she put them under her tongue and spat them out when he wasn't looking, so it seems like a straight case of deceit.

 

As for wearing a condom every time you have sex - if you're M, your MP would feel very insulted if you insisted on their (or your, if you're the H) wearing a condom each time. They'd wonder what you're accusing them of - or what you've been up to. (And yes, women wanting to fall pregnant have been known to sabotage condoms too... Not that they really needed to - it's only relatively recently that the effectiveness of condoms has risen above 75%, thanks to research to improve them due to HIV/AIDS. That suggests that if you have sex more than four times, you're likely to fall pregnant...)

 

Are you actually saying that he WATCHED his wife take the pill and she pretended to? Oh please!! He loved his wife and had children with her. FACE IT!!

[jthorne]

Are you actually saying that he WATCHED his wife take the pill and she pretended to? Oh please!! He loved his wife and had children with her. FACE IT!!

And OWoman loves her H, so she believes what he tells her.

 

That's all I got.

[Mimolicious]

I've heard it all!

 

Read the fine print on BC. It's not 100%...

 

So pathetic that people create families that they don't even want. Poor kids. Yet, there are million of healthy, well rounded couples spending thousands to be able to conceive a baby. Such a shame.

[OWoman]

Are you actually saying that he WATCHED his wife take the pill and she pretended to? Oh please!! He loved his wife and had children with her. FACE IT!!

 

I have no idea whether or not he watched her - it's merely something she claimed to one of his family members. He certainly did understand her to be on the Pill throughout their M - they had agreed on no kids from the outset - and he never changed his mind on that, even though she certainly did, acting on it without negotiation.

 

Perhaps he did love her at one stage - but the photos from the time the kids were born don't suggest it. If that's love, give me war anyday!

[OWoman]

And OWoman loves her H, so she believes what he tells her.

 

That's all I got.

 

Nice try. But no cigar.

 

He didn't tell me. The person she told it to did, backed up by other members of the family who were present at the time (he wasn't).

 

And no, I don't believe "what he tells me". I routinely disbelieve everything anybody tells me, until I can verify it independently.

 

My gullibility ended age 3 when I discovered Father Christmas didn't exist. Older siblings are a boon.

[whichwayisup]

He certainly did understand her to be on the Pill throughout their M - they had agreed on no kids from the outset - and he never changed his mind on that, even though she certainly did, acting on it without negotiation.

So if he didn't want kids, why make her stay on the Pill? Why didn't he just go and get a snip done?

 

My gullibility ended age 3 when I discovered Father Christmas didn't exist. Older siblings are a boon.

 

Now this is funny!

[OWoman]

Truth be told, all this harping on the guy saying he didn't want kids or a SAHM for a W, sounds like he is leaving the marriage because of the kids and the role of father and provider that he doesn't want to have to play.

 

He doesn't sound like a catch for either woman.

 

Why does a guy have to want to be a father to be considered "a great catch"?

 

Personally, I'd prefer to be with a guy without encumberances, and prefer myself to be without encumberances, and for neither of us to want encumberances... but this is not an ideal world, and we both have kids, so we work with what we have. But if I could draw up design specs for my "ideal man", he'd have been born infertile with zero paternal instinct - freeing me from any pressure to breed or nurture.

[OWoman]

So if he didn't want kids, why make her stay on the Pill?

 

He didn't "make her" do anything - she's not someone anyone can make do anything! She chose to be on the Pill because she was a "liberated woman".

 

Why didn't he just go and get a snip done?

 

On this - my H also didn't want kids. Did he rush off to have a vasectomy? No. Why not? Hmm - maybe he didn't want someone that close to his dangly bits with a scalpel. I didn't want kids either. Did I rush off and get my tubes tied? No. I wasn't too keen on someone messing around my insides with a scalpel either. Some of us trusted the contraceptive statistics

 

Some people are afraid of surgery, however "minor". He would rather carry 5 pairs of glasses around with him, which he hates, despite the irritation, discomfort and side effects (eczema behind his ears, oedema on the bridge of his nose, etc) instead of a quick laser op because... it's surgery. He'd rather limp around suffering incredible pain instead of getting a foot problem taken care of because... it's surgery. He'd rather take dozens of pills, every day, for the rest of his life for a simply curable condition - because that would involve surgery. Quick, outpatient surgery - doesn't matter. He'd rather not.

 

He's probably also a bit vain, like most men, about not wanting droopy balls.

[whichwayisup]

OW, I say this with respect, (due to the fact I have suffered from anxiety disorder in the past) avoiding and changing his life like that isn't a good thing, it's a learned behaviour that will eventually get worse as he gets older, more set in his ways. I completely understand the mindset behind it and the fear that goes along with it too, (I'm terrified of dentists and need to be put out when I get cavities now) the thing is, it carries into other parts of his life. Not saying for sure it will, but it is something to keep an eye on. Sorry for the t/j.

[OWoman]

OW, I say this with respect, (due to the fact I have suffered from anxiety disorder in the past) avoiding and changing his life like that isn't a good thing, it's a learned behaviour that will eventually get worse as he gets older, more set in his ways. I completely understand the mindset behind it and the fear that goes along with it too, (I'm terrified of dentists and need to be put out when I get cavities now) the thing is, it carries into other parts of his life. Not saying for sure it will, but it is something to keep an eye on. Sorry for the t/j.

 

Tx WWIU - he's aware of that, partly through his IC, and partly losing his father recently. He also knows I don't let him get away with much - he's allowed to nag me to take my tablets, and I'm allowed to nag him to take care of himself too. He's getting better about things, slowly - adjusting his lifestyle to be more proactive - and I'm completely fascist about some things (like food) so he knows when he's on a hiding to nothing! But yes, it is a crutch from the past, and something to keep an eye on.

[WTFBBQ]

Why does a guy have to want to be a father to be considered "a great catch"?

 

Personally, I'd prefer to be with a guy without encumberances, and prefer myself to be without encumberances, and for neither of us to want encumberances... but this is not an ideal world, and we both have kids, so we work with what we have. But if I could draw up design specs for my "ideal man", he'd have been born infertile with zero paternal instinct - freeing me from any pressure to breed or nurture.

Children=encumbrances

[awkward]

Wow so if the BS wants to stay married maybe she should just insist that they don't divorce.

[fooled once]

Hi!

I am a new poster, 3years into a happy, fulfilling relation with my soulmate and love of my life, stbxmm.

 

Although i am very happy to be with stbxmm, i am struggling to with the non-straightforwardness of our relationship.

 

My ideal love storey: two sixteen yearolds, him boy-her girl, orphans, fall in love and live happily ever after..

 

Reality: alienated adult step-kids, bitter stbxw, guilty exmm, guilty but un-apologetic BOW.

 

Would love to hear about real messy rewarding relations...

 

Also if anyone is in the early stage of a relationship with a mm and are hearing too much bull**** about he's a liar-liar and its doomed, and every little thing he does is used against him, i can give my perspective..sometimes hanging on in there really does work out

 

Aspie

Wow - anyone else struggling trying to figure out Aspie's posts? What I noticed right away is the "Unapologetic" OW reference...I have only heard it on LS and only by one poster. Interesting that here is another one...

 

Sounds like this dude is a wimp. Sounds like he has no brain. Sounds like he is wishy washy. Sounds like a loser, quite frankly.

 

Bullied by his wife. Bullied to marry. Bullied to have sex. Bullied to do everything.

 

YET he stays. He has how many kids? is the excuse now he can't afford to divorce because he will have to pay --- OMG --- he would have to be partly responsible for the financial responsibilities of the children he created. And no one forced him to have sex with his wife. HE CHOSE HER. HE CHOSE to date her, to propose to her and to have a wedding. HE CHOSE to have sex with her. How come that is so hard for some OW to understand?

 

You know, one fifth (one in five) of all relationships start when one partner is already in a long term relationship. That makes us OW pretty much ordinary...

 

The point you don't get is the OW/OM is the way out of a diminishing and second rate relationship. Many MM and MW are t trapped, diminished, bullied that they really think their only option is staying married.

 

They are told over and over again, you are so lucky to be with me they start to believe it. They only way they can get the balls to step out of benign abuse is if someone says 'it doesn't have to be like this'

 

My mm ( i think he is not unique) did not really want to get married; wife insisted. He didn't really want kids; wife insisted. He didn't really want a SAHM and all the financial burden on him. Wife insisted. He did not want to become a child-oriented household; Wife insisted.

 

And now she is surprised that he found a relation which isn't all about him rolling over and doing things he doesn't want and he gets better more frequent sex, and somehow he likes it? He must be very bad or wicket.

 

Again with the "statistics". Can you show me where it states that 1 in 5 relationships start when one person is already involved romantically with someone else? Or did you make that up? Maybe in YOUR country OW are ordinary, but they aren't in my world.

 

If having an affair is the way out of a diminishing and unsatisfying marriage, then why don't more men actually divorce? Why do they choose to cheat instead of divorce? Why do they choose to go home to their wife every night? Why don't they choose to stay forever with the mistress? I still don't get this "bullied" stuff. Is that what you have to tell yourself to make it seem better that he won't leave his wife for you?

 

So when is he leaving his wife for you? Why don't you call her and tell her you are having sex with her husband? I bet she would hand him over to you; yet I bet you don't believe in marriage or you feel that one person doesn't "own" another person

 

that is an intelligent reply.

 

of course he loves his kids to the moon and back. i visited by bro last week who had 2 kids and is the perfect dad...unlike his wife, he knows kids have need for school fees, extra curricula etc and are a huge burden. He pays this and his SAHM wife wants another kid. He adores his kids completely, yet i can see he is completely reluctant to have another. Why>

?

He knows he will have to bear the financial burden. He would never never wish his child a way but he doesn't want another (who he knows he would love if it arrived). My husbands xwife the same. he didn't want kids though he knew he would love them if they were there.

 

but it wasn't the way he planned his life. she imposed on him

 

Again, more snarky posts for an alleged "newbie".

 

so you are so angry about his wife and her alleged bullying. I am guessing that you don't know the wife and I am guessing you haven't been in their home, their bedroom to witness her bullying. You only have your information 2nd hand, from the guy you are having an affair with.

 

So I ask again, why isn't he with you? Why hasn't he divorced? Why are you 'cheating'? If your H makes you so bitter and unhappy, why don't you divorce him?

 

You say he doesn't want more kids - who is asking him to have more kids? You? If he doesn't want more kids - easy remedy....stop sleeping with the person who wants kids. He must still be having sex with her. He must still be enjoying having sex with her because last I heard, a man doesn't get an erection if he finds the person not desirable.

 

His wife doesn't control him. He makes those decisions. Know how I know this? Because he chose to have an affair, without his wife bullying him to have one. He can do the same thing with a divorce. But it seems to me, he isn't interested in a divorce. He has 2 women to take care of him, two women to stroke his ego. He has the best of both worlds!!

 

Idk....Aspie if you are happy then I am happy. Truly.

 

But there is some skewed logic here.

 

Woman do want a provider for their offspring and very well may apply pressure to marry more than men.

 

But for the life of me, I cannot think of one man who did not actively pursue the woman he did decide to marry. Not one.

 

You CANNOT make a man marry you as you CANNOT make a man love you enough to commit to you for life. You CANNOT make a man impregnate you unless you intentionally lie and trick him to, and if he fears that scenario, he only has to wrap it.

 

How many kids does he have?

 

He seems to sound very victimized by the SAHM of his children.

 

Why? Wasn't he in this relationship too?

 

Excellent post!

 

Mileages may vary.

 

At what point did i say; statistics are completely true for individuals so if you are a woman taller than a man you must stop existing.

 

On average, women are more into marriage and committment than men. If i lie sue me.

 

This helps women trap men, and when men realise they want to get out, unfortunately they are often so abused they can't get out by demanding a divroce.

 

instead they try and signal 'would anyone want me'...and once they get these signals they leave.

 

they don't do so before because they have been so abused by women and society they don't see any other option

 

:laugh: :laugh:

 

This is a funny post! Women trapping men. This isn't the 1930's. Plenty of men don't marry the mother of his children.

 

So I am guessing this MM signaled to you "does anyone want me" and you obliged? So is he leaving?

 

And now society is abusing him? Man, this dude has a tough life!

 

I wouldn't counsel any woman to be with a man that just blames all his problems on his previous relationship. Too immature.

 

If he does it to one, he will do it to the other.

 

Question is, if this guy starts to blame his unhappiness and guilt, and the alienation from his kids on the OW, is she going to be honest and come back and ask for help on dealing with it? Or is she going to start blaming the stbxW for that as well?

 

agree NiD

 

This guy seems to blame everyone but himself. I am going to guess, on your last question, the OW will blame the exW for pretty much everything and anything.

[greengoddess]

Wow - anyone else struggling trying to figure out Aspie's posts? What I noticed right away is the "Unapologetic" OW reference...I have only heard it on LS and only by one poster. Interesting that here is another one...

 

Sounds like this dude is a wimp. Sounds like he has no brain. Sounds like he is wishy washy. Sounds like a loser, quite frankly.

 

Bullied by his wife. Bullied to marry. Bullied to have sex. Bullied to do everything.

 

YET he stays. He has how many kids? is the excuse now he can't afford to divorce because he will have to pay --- OMG --- he would have to be partly responsible for the financial responsibilities of the children he created. And no one forced him to have sex with his wife. HE CHOSE HER. HE CHOSE to date her, to propose to her and to have a wedding. HE CHOSE to have sex with her. How come that is so hard for some OW to understand?

 

 

 

Again with the "statistics". Can you show me where it states that 1 in 5 relationships start when one person is already involved romantically with someone else? Or did you make that up? Maybe in YOUR country OW are ordinary, but they aren't in my world.

 

If having an affair is the way out of a diminishing and unsatisfying marriage, then why don't more men actually divorce? Why do they choose to cheat instead of divorce? Why do they choose to go home to their wife every night? Why don't they choose to stay forever with the mistress? I still don't get this "bullied" stuff. Is that what you have to tell yourself to make it seem better that he won't leave his wife for you?

 

So when is he leaving his wife for you? Why don't you call her and tell her you are having sex with her husband? I bet she would hand him over to you; yet I bet you don't believe in marriage or you feel that one person doesn't "own" another person

 

 

 

Again, more snarky posts for an alleged "newbie".

 

so you are so angry about his wife and her alleged bullying. I am guessing that you don't know the wife and I am guessing you haven't been in their home, their bedroom to witness her bullying. You only have your information 2nd hand, from the guy you are having an affair with.

 

So I ask again, why isn't he with you? Why hasn't he divorced? Why are you 'cheating'? If your H makes you so bitter and unhappy, why don't you divorce him?

 

You say he doesn't want more kids - who is asking him to have more kids? You? If he doesn't want more kids - easy remedy....stop sleeping with the person who wants kids. He must still be having sex with her. He must still be enjoying having sex with her because last I heard, a man doesn't get an erection if he finds the person not desirable.

 

His wife doesn't control him. He makes those decisions. Know how I know this? Because he chose to have an affair, without his wife bullying him to have one. He can do the same thing with a divorce. But it seems to me, he isn't interested in a divorce. He has 2 women to take care of him, two women to stroke his ego. He has the best of both worlds!!

 

 

 

Excellent post!

 

 

 

:laugh: :laugh:

 

This is a funny post! Women trapping men. This isn't the 1930's. Plenty of men don't marry the mother of his children.

 

So I am guessing this MM signaled to you "does anyone want me" and you obliged? So is he leaving?

 

And now society is abusing him? Man, this dude has a tough life!

 

 

 

agree NiD

 

This guy seems to blame everyone but himself. I am going to guess, on your last question, the OW will blame the exW for pretty much everything and anything.

 

Totally agree.

[Mimolicious]

Why does a guy have to want to be a father to be considered "a great catch"?

 

 

 

I guess this boils down to ones personal prerogative but in the case of the OP, this guy is ALREADY a father. So not much of a choice of being one or not. Too late, maybe next life time because in this one he aint looking too swell.

[OWoman]

Wow - anyone else struggling trying to figure out Aspie's posts? What I noticed right away is the "Unapologetic" OW reference...I have only heard it on LS and only by one poster. Interesting that here is another one...

 

Funny that... I first used the term some years ago, referring to myself. More recently Jen picked it up from another OW who posted here (can't recall who, but she did mention) so that's already three. And, IIRC, FA used the term to refer to herself, too. That's four that I can think of off the top of my head. There are probably others, both current and past, that I've not come across or not remembered using the term.

 

Why should it be so surprising that someone else comes up with the notion too? They could quite possibly have read it here - seeing as Jen used it as her signature, frequently uses it in her posts to describe herself or other OWs who share certain traits, and I use it from time to time too? Or, equally possibly, they could have independently thought it a fitting description, the way myself and other OWs have come up with that description for themselves spontaneously.

[OWoman]

I guess this boils down to ones personal prerogative but in the case of the OP, this guy is ALREADY a father. So not much of a choice of being one or not. Too late, maybe next life time because in this one he aint looking too swell.

 

So he's a reluctant father. I'm a reluctant mother. Doesn't mean I'm not a good one, it just means it's not what I would have chosen. I still love my kids, my step-kids and my kids-by-proxy, I fulfill all my parenting obligations and then some, and the fact that my kids have turned out brilliantly shows that I've been a successful one.

 

how good or successful he is at parenting isn't necessarily determined by the fact that he didn't want the kids to begin with.