How quick do women expect men to move?

[somedude81]

I've been put in the friendzone more times than I care to remember and I think it may be to how quickly or slowly, I try to make things happen.

 

Runner made an interesting point in a different thread.

You really need to establish romantic interest as quickly as possible, like within the first meeting, within the first 15 minutes even and if you don't, well ... hence being put in her friends-zone.

 

For me, I have no interest at all in being "romantic" with a girl I just met. I can't imagine meeting a girl and then conveying to her that I want her. I also don't have any interest in getting physical with a girl I don't know.

 

But I guess that if you don't move quickly with a woman she immediately rights you off as just a friend.

 

Or if you do manage to get a date but don't try to kiss her on the first date, then you're a wuss. It doesn't matter that you don't want to kiss her yet.

 

Am I totally in the wrong for wanting to get to know somebody first before I want to date and sleep with them?

[denise_xo]

I've always been a little bit perplexed by this friend-zoning speak on LS. If I like someone, it's not going to fizzle out because the guy is friendly. I may feel uncertain about his interest and hence as to whether there is potential, but that isn't necessarily going to affect my interest. So I question this idea that all these women lose interest because the guy didn't move fast enough. It makes me think that they weren't interested in the first place. But maybe there's something I'm not getting, or maybe it's a cultural thing that's less prevalent where I live, I don't know.

 

But in short: I think your sentiments are perfectly normal.

[Cee]

I think it's fine to wait on physical contact, but it's best to give your A game at the beginning. Be at your most attractive, clever, witty, and caring at the start. Even if it doesn't work out, you have another date with another person.

 

I started holding back on first dates for some reason. I think I wanted to fail. And sure enough, I failed.

 

It's kind of like a job interview-- you don't know that job is your perfect match, but you want to show people you are an excellent candidate.

[carhill]

Am I totally in the wrong for wanting to get to know somebody first before I want to date and sleep with them?

 

It pains me to say this, but long life experience has proven both you and me wrong in our 'wants'. Evidently, based on this experience, the proper way is to 'get to know' them while dating and f*cking them. This is what successful men do.

 

The risk of 'getting to know them' without stimulating the hormonal sexual response is that they remain engaged with their brains instead of their loins and will 'want' to have you around but will not be 'attracted' to you. You become a valued memeber of their community; their support system. The system which supports them while they're dealing with the guy they f*ck.

 

Also, the more you talk while 'getting to know them', the more likely you're going to saying something they don't agree with or find weird, or otherwise have a negative reaction to. With no positive 'attraction' to balance it, oops. This is how abusive men can abuse women. They romance them, first. They f*ck them, first. The negative behaviors have balance within the woman. She *feels* attracted when he 'switches'. It's all psychology. I've been emotionally abused by women and that's exactly how they do it, though it's more the intimacy with suggestion of f*cking that worked with my psychology.

 

I'll bet, based on personal experience during my divorce, that, once my exW wasn't actually 'coming home' anymore, meaning after we bought the house for her, men who were orbiting 'moved in' in that briefest of times, presuming she wasn't with anyone while we were married, while she was 'available'. They didn't 'get to know her'; they got right down to the business of f*cking. That's how it works. Accepted.

[somedude81]

I've always been a little bit perplexed by this friend-zoning speak on LS. If I like someone, it's not going to fizzle out because the guy is friendly......

...It makes me think that they weren't interested in the first place.

That's what I'm thinking. If interest wasn't established then it's easier for it to fizzle.

 

Which begs the question, how quickly do women expect a man to create interest before she rights him off as just friend material?

 

I think it's fine to wait on physical contact, but it's best to give your A game at the beginning. Be at your most attractive, clever, witty, and caring at the start. Even if it doesn't work out, you have another date with another person.

Does that mean I have to try and "seduce" women that I just met? Or are you talking about dates?

[somedude81]

It pains me to say this, but long life experience has proven both you and me wrong in our 'wants'. Evidently, based on this experience, the proper way is to 'get to know' them while dating and f*cking them. This is what successful men do.

That's something to think about.

 

The risk of 'getting to know them' without stimulating the hormonal sexual response is that they remain engaged with their brains instead of their loins and will 'want' to have you around but will not be 'attracted' to you. You become a valued memeber of their community; their support system. The system which supports them while they're dealing with the guy they f*ck.

And is that permanent? Meaning that they will never become attracted? That's basically what I've figured out.

 

It's odd how women are either hot or cold and men can slowly warm up. It's very very common for men to fall for women they spent a lot of time with with.

Also, the more you talk while 'getting to know them', the more likely you're going to saying something they don't agree with or find weird, or otherwise have a negative reaction to. With no positive 'attraction' to balance it, oops. This is how abusive men can abuse women. They romance them, first. They f*ck them, first. The negative behaviors have balance within the woman.

Hmm, so if you're already getting physical with a woman, you can screw up a lot more.

 

What I'm wondering is how much time a guy actually has.

[carhill]

OP, do you see women as equals? I know I do and that has long been my problem in dating. Equal obviates difference. Lack of difference ratchets down lust and attraction. Remember the saying about how 'opposites attract'? That has as much to do with perception as it does with personality. The man who sees women as these wonderful, mysterious, different creatures is going to *feel* far differently about them than I might if I see them as people I've had long and satisfying equal platonic and working relationships with. It *feels* different. This feeling impels different 'signals' being sent out and different 'behaviors' to occur.

 

I have noticed that most of the successful (with women) men in my social circle don't have female 'friends'. They don't have 'equal' relationships with women. If they're single, they date women. If they're married, they're faithful to their wives but always interact with women from the standpoint of non-equality. IOW, they never think of a woman as anyone other than someone they *might* want to f*ck. I gain this insight by watching their behaviors and talking with them about women.

 

I found, once I started changing how I *felt*, women responded positively. These men are right. Too bad I wasted so much of my life doing it my way. You have the opportunity to do much better.

 

Hmm, so if you're already getting physical with a woman, you can screw up a lot more.

 

What I'm wondering is how much time a guy actually has.

 

You *will* screw it up if you don't get physical. You *can* screw it up at any moment of any given day. It's inevitable. Accept that.

 

You have about ten seconds.

Edited December 5, 2010 by carhill

[denise_xo]

That's what I'm thinking. If interest wasn't established then it's easier for it to fizzle.

 

Which begs the question, how quickly do women expect a man to create interest before she rights him off as just friend material?

 

Hm. I've never thought of the question in those terms. I don't expect a man to create interest. It's like, I'm interested or I'm not. If I'm interested, my question is just whether it's reciprocated and I guess I would expect a man to make that clear at some point, if it was the case. But then I might be a bit different from you in that I have a tendency to fall in love before I know a person well. And if I was in love, it would take a long time before I'd completely write him off because I'm just a big softie who would keep hoping and if I wasn't, well then the write off would be pretty quick.

 

Sorry not to be of more help.

[phineas]

 

I have noticed that most of the successful (with women) men in my social circle don't have female 'friends'. They don't have 'equal' relationships with women. If they're single, they date women. If they're married, they're faithful to their wives but always interact with women from the standpoint of non-equality. IOW, they never think of a woman as anyone other than someone they *might* want to f*ck. I gain this insight by watching their behaviors and talking with them about women.

 

I realized this about the last woman.

She said she wanted to take things slow & I did just that.

We were friends before.

The kind of friends where I didn't treat her special just because she was a woman.

I treated her differently because she said she wanted to date.

My 2nd mistake. She didn't really do anything to earn that special treatment.

 

My first mistake was agreeing to take things slow.

I'm seeing now if I had told her I had no interest in going slow & will date someone who is ready now i'd of been sleeping with her by last month instead of having to use the treat of going out with someone else just to get a kiss.

 

when she got with me I didn't try to have sex with her. I got my hands between her legs then went for a kiss before I started really doing anything else & she shied away & shut me down.

 

I see now if I had just kept going for it without even trying to kiss her things would of progressed further & she wouldn't of started up with the "busy" excuses at the end of the date & I wouldn't of had to stop talking to her because she started turning into a hoover.

 

I will not make the same mistake with this next woman. I'm keeping phone calls & texts strictly to scheduling dates.

 

If she don't want to give me face time she don't get any of my time otherwise.

[somedude81]

OP, do you see women as equals? I know I do and that has long been my problem in dating. Equal obviates difference. Lack of difference ratchets down lust and attraction...

.... The man who sees women as these wonderful, mysterious, different creatures.

Wonderful, mysterious, different creatures would be a good way to describe it.

 

Sadly women have only been a very small part of my life. So no, I don't really seem them as equals. I haven't spent enough time with them to do that. But that doesn't mean I have bountiful lust for them.

 

Yes I do have lust and attraction for women, BUT, only after I actually like a girl. I only have interest in sleeping with girls that I actually like. If I wanted to sleep with women I didn't know or care about, I'd get a prostitute.

 

Remember the saying about how 'opposites attract'? That has as much to do with perception as it does with personality. is going to *feel* far differently about them than I might if I see them as people I've had long and satisfying equal platonic and working relationships with. It *feels* different. This feeling impels different 'signals' being sent out and different 'behaviors' to occur.

I don't believe in the opposites attract thing. It just makes a lot more sense to date somebody that I have a lot of things in common with.

 

Part of that is because I really want a girlfriend. I don't want to hook up with random girls.

 

 

 

I have noticed that most of the successful (with women) men in my social circle don't have female 'friends'. They don't have 'equal' relationships with women. If they're single, they date women. If they're married, they're faithful to their wives but always interact with women from the standpoint of non-equality. IOW, they never think of a woman as anyone other than someone they *might* want to f*ck. I gain this insight by watching their behaviors and talking with them about women.

I'm the same way, I don't have any interest in platonic friendships. But that's what I keep getting stuck with and it's driving me insane.

 

I just don't want to quickly move from strangers to bangin' buddies.

 

I found, once I started changing how I *felt*, women responded positively. These men are right. Too bad I wasted so much of my life doing it my way. You have the opportunity to do much better.

How do I change how I feel?

[carhill]

How do I change how I feel?

 

Therapy

[sumdude]

OP, do you see women as equals? I know I do and that has long been my problem in dating. Equal obviates difference. Lack of difference ratchets down lust and attraction. Remember the saying about how 'opposites attract'? That has as much to do with perception as it does with personality. The man who sees women as these wonderful, mysterious, different creatures is going to *feel* far differently about them than I might if I see them as people I've had long and satisfying equal platonic and working relationships with. It *feels* different. This feeling impels different 'signals' being sent out and different 'behaviors' to occur.

 

I have noticed that most of the successful (with women) men in my social circle don't have female 'friends'. They don't have 'equal' relationships with women. If they're single, they date women. If they're married, they're faithful to their wives but always interact with women from the standpoint of non-equality. IOW, they never think of a woman as anyone other than someone they *might* want to f*ck. I gain this insight by watching their behaviors and talking with them about women.

 

I found, once I started changing how I *felt*, women responded positively. These men are right. Too bad I wasted so much of my life doing it my way. You have the opportunity to do much better.

 

 

 

You *will* screw it up if you don't get physical. You *can* screw it up at any moment of any given day. It's inevitable. Accept that.

 

You have about ten seconds.

 

Great post professor Carhill. You have to get the animal attraction started early since the only difference between a platonic friendship and romantic relationship is sex.

 

I grew up in a Catholic household where sex was not spoken of. I never got the talk from dad, no one to teach me anything about sex and women. So it made it seem that sex was somehow bad. This belief really got in the way of forming romantic relationships.

[carhill]

Yep, sex is the most intimate, highest and best expression of love and commitment.

 

I think there are about two women in the world who think like that. Just look at their knees

[somedude81]

I'm taking some posts that were originally posted in my online dating thread that are better suited here.

It's virtually impossible to know whether someone is a compatible long-term partner in the first 15 mins. unless you're some extremely dillusional freak, that is

 

but that's not the point i wanted to get to. perhaps you just need to stay away from flirting with girls you don't really have immediate sexual interest in, and approach those that you do. personally, i usually have at least half a boner in my pants when i approach a girl that i'm into and you know what- it comes off in my body language and if she fancied me to begin with, well, off to the horizontal olympics

The problem is that I don't have immediate sexual interest in anybody.

 

When I see a really hot girl I might want to talk to her, but jumping into bed with her is a distant thought.

 

Do women expect men to want to sleep with them right away?

 

One thing I have noticed is that when I'm actually with a girl I like, sex isn't even really on my mind at all. I just want to be around her, talk to her, touch her, wonder what it would be like to kiss her. I don't get the sexual thoughts till I'm away from her.

 

I wonder if something is wrong with me? I guess it could be from the terrible luck in dating that I'm afraid to express my desires, so they became repressed.

 

Dating is the process of determining gf potential. You must must must ask these girls out right away. Stop getting to know them first, that will always make you the "friend." You have to ask them out either the first or second time you talk to them. Spend the dating process trying to determine if you two are compatible.

Seriously?! Ask them out the first or second time I talk to them? That sounds ridiculous.

 

Considering how most of the girls I meet at college I don't even see how that's possible.

 

So I should talk to a girl in class and right away ask her out?

Therapy

 

I am in therapy but I think I should change my focus to this issue as it may stem from something much deeper.

Great post professor Carhill. You have to get the animal attraction started early since the only difference between a platonic friendship and romantic relationship is sex.

 

I grew up in a Catholic household where sex was not spoken of. I never got the talk from dad, no one to teach me anything about sex and women. So it made it seem that sex was somehow bad. This belief really got in the way of forming romantic relationships.

 

I was raised by a single mother who made all of us go to church every week. The only things I new about sex were what I was taught in school. I don't have any sisters and I never had any close female friends, so girls were pretty much foreign to me. At 29, I'm still trying to figure out how romantic relationships form. Getting rejected by every girl I've ever had a crush on, hasn't made things any easier.

 

What I'm really struggling with, is why girls want to keep a platonic friendship, platonic.

[hearttobreak]

I do not think if I was doing online dating and a first meet, the first thing I should do is grab different parts of her body. I just do not think most women, attracted to me or not, would find that sexually appealing and I would end up in jail.

[carhill]

Do women expect men to want to sleep with them right away?

 

Yes, they do, and put the WANT in bold.

 

Think about it. Disregarding gender, can you imagine the gender you wanted to mate with wanting to mate with you and expressing it constantly? Even if it was annoying, can you imagine how much it feeds your id, your passion center, that most selfish part of your psyche? Intoxicating, that *want* is.

 

This doesn't mean the expression needs to be overt and inappropriate, nor do you have to have sex with them right away to have standing, but you'd d@mn well better WANT, or you're toast.

 

WANT, I've found, is an attractant to women of all types, both married and single. It's powerful stuff. Having healthy boundaries is necessary, IMO.

[sumdude]

Yes, they do, and put the WANT in bold.

 

Think about it. Disregarding gender, can you imagine the gender you wanted to mate with wanting to mate with you and expressing it constantly? Even if it was annoying, can you imagine how much it feeds your id, your passion center, that most selfish part of your psyche? Intoxicating, that *want* is.

 

This doesn't mean the expression needs to be overt and inappropriate, nor do you have to have sex with them right away to have standing, but you'd d@mn well better WANT, or you're toast.

 

WANT, I've found, is an attractant to women of all types, both married and single. It's powerful stuff. Having healthy boundaries is necessary, IMO.

 

Absolutely. I've made the mistake of playing it too cool in a sexual relationship which of course fizzled. I was reacting to a previous 7 year relationship where I wanted too much and stopped being a challenge. So I was overcompensating. LOL live and learn to find the middle ground.

[Seamless74]

I believe what is of paramount importance is understanding that the whole interaction is a conversation an ongoing conversation of the body and the mind. I mean what is the point of only engaging the brain part when its also attached to the body i.e. the importance of nonverbal communication whereby holding hands can say alot more than words as can tickling, rough housing and a slap on the ass.. I mean sometimes when dealing with a woman we just talk way to much to the wrong part. Part of getting to know someone intimately is what the sexual part of them is like.. I mean you want to spend 3 months getting to know someone only to find out your sexually incompatible??

 

 

Furthermore any woman wanting you to be friends or assuming you want to listen to her bull**** everyday is actually insulting your manhood whether you know it or not.. Shes engaged in an act that goes against your masculine energy and your complicit in the process/

 

It just gets to a point in getting to know a female where the conversation has to go physical to stay interesting and keep both parties engaged and I would say thats waaayy sooner than most of us believe. Matter of fact if a woman doesnt want to get intimate with you soon that says alot. I posit it either means its probably not ever gonna happen, or shes still weighing other options, or most importantly she really likes you and you both have communicated that shes choosing to wait because you in love and she wants the whole respect long term maybe marriage string to play out.

 

But this whole man woman friends thing OOOHHH I HATE IT call me old school or whatever but its just not appropriate for men to be engaged with the majority of the times

 

 

Its you job to be the wolf... You either kill the sheep (meaning get into a relationship or just ****) or you chase them off ( make your initial intentions know and they either tell you to **** off or politely say no) what you definately dont do is ****ing pretend your a sheep and play with them..

Edited December 5, 2010 by Seamless74

[runner]

Part of that is because I really want a girlfriend. I don't want to hook up with random girls.

 

understood. being in a fun, healthy relationship is pretty awesome so i wish you all the best in that. but i think you might be putting the cart in front of the horse in how you're going about this- and no, this isn't about hooking up with "random girls." if you had even a smidgen of lust/attraction for her at first sight, she is not some random girl to you. accept that, instinctively, you want to **** her; and that is where you need to begin. you gotta blow her away between her legs first, and then when the clothes come back on, you can proceed to blow her mind with how awesome you are. and before you know it, you're in a relationship ! congrats !

 

granted what i just wrote is on the crude, extreme end of thought. ultimately, you want to find your own personal balance between honourable knight in shining armour and horny ravenous caveman that your object of affection will respond to in kind. good luck with that

[Crazy Magnet]

Girls either like you or they don't. The best way to find out if they like you is to ask them out. If you ask a girl out right away and she says no or gives you the just friends line, then you don't waste any further time pursuing a girl who has no romantic interest in you. You more than likely will not create any interest by continuing to hang around.

 

If you wait until you invest time and energy (and probably some emotions) into the girl before you ask her out then

a) the rejection is going to hurt worse

b) you may have missed other opportunities with girls who had interest in you

c) it will take you longer to get over the rejection.

 

Just because you ask someone out doesn't mean you have to get them naked any time soon. Ask a girl for coffee, make it clear that it's a date. If you want to get to know her more after coffee ask her on a dinner date, if not, don't. Ramp up the flirty banter and physical touch. Things can get really steamy without any clothes coming off.

 

Asking girls out early is especially true if she's pretty. If you aren't asking her out somebody else is and you'll miss the boat.

[dispatch3d]

Good point crazy, I never even fully realized it. Taking longer to ask a girl out actually makes the whole process WORSE not better. I've actually been adjusting instinctively. I found that the longer I tried to hit on girls the less pleasant it was for me overall. Everything just goes to **** because both parties get too invested in a fictitious relationship.

[Mellisa]

I've been put in the friendzone more times than I care to remember and I think it may be to how quickly or slowly, I try to make things happen.

 

Runner made an interesting point in a different thread.

 

 

For me, I have no interest at all in being "romantic" with a girl I just met. I can't imagine meeting a girl and then conveying to her that I want her. I also don't have any interest in getting physical with a girl I don't know.

 

But I guess that if you don't move quickly with a woman she immediately rights you off as just a friend.

 

Or if you do manage to get a date but don't try to kiss her on the first date, then you're a wuss. It doesn't matter that you don't want to kiss her yet.

 

Am I totally in the wrong for wanting to get to know somebody first before I want to date and sleep with them?

 

Wow, this is pretty refreshing to hear!I think you might come from a very rare minority of guys hehe...I thought all the guys go under the "get to know you" cover just to get into your pants.I just assumed all men were driven by testerone..Can i ask under what situation do you see yoursef starting to "want" the girl?

[irc333]

Does it necessarily have to full intercourse, how about just kissing and making out at first?

 

It pains me to say this, but long life experience has proven both you and me wrong in our 'wants'. Evidently, based on this experience, the proper way is to 'get to know' them while dating and f*cking them. This is what successful men do.

 

The risk of 'getting to know them' without stimulating the hormonal sexual response is that they remain engaged with their brains instead of their loins and will 'want' to have you around but will not be 'attracted' to you. You become a valued memeber of their community; their support system. The system which supports them while they're dealing with the guy they f*ck.

 

Also, the more you talk while 'getting to know them', the more likely you're going to saying something they don't agree with or find weird, or otherwise have a negative reaction to. With no positive 'attraction' to balance it, oops. This is how abusive men can abuse women. They romance them, first. They f*ck them, first. The negative behaviors have balance within the woman. She *feels* attracted when he 'switches'. It's all psychology. I've been emotionally abused by women and that's exactly how they do it, though it's more the intimacy with suggestion of f*cking that worked with my psychology.

 

I'll bet, based on personal experience during my divorce, that, once my exW wasn't actually 'coming home' anymore, meaning after we bought the house for her, men who were orbiting 'moved in' in that briefest of times, presuming she wasn't with anyone while we were married, while she was 'available'. They didn't 'get to know her'; they got right down to the business of f*cking. That's how it works. Accepted.

[carhill]

Passionate orgasms, IME, imbue elemental desire, connection and bond. Everyone is different as to the power and effect of different types of orgasms, like from intercourse, mutual masturbation and oral sex, as examples.

Caution: Some women (and men) have sex with a partner like they masturbate, essentially using the partner as a receptacle. These people generally do not bond by, with or through sex, and sometimes have no functional method of bonding at all. For someone who wishes a bonded, loving relationship, they are/may be a poor choice of partner.

Edited December 6, 2010 by carhill

[youngskywalker]

There is one problem I have with all this.

 

I don't want to sleep with every woman I get a third date with. I'm going to go against the flow here and say a woman has to commit to a relationship with me before I sleep with her.

 

The funny thing is, the women who I have slept with early are the ones who when we broke up after say 6-7 dates it was easy for me to move on. The only heartbreaks I've had were with women who I really liked (no sex) and it never worked out. Does that make any sense?

 

I really don't think sex makes the deep connection you all say it does. Love is love, sex is sex. Emotional connection is not equal to sex. The only thing sex might do is get you a few more dates and fun nights. Either the girl likes you or doesn't.

 

Personally I find a girl that sleeps with you before having an established relationship to be a skank. Next.