BB07 Posted December 5, 2010 Posted December 5, 2010 How many OW are familiar with the term primum non nocere? I wasn't familiar and I'm not a OW but..........google is pretty simple to use.
desertIslandCactus Posted December 5, 2010 Posted December 5, 2010 How many OW are familiar with the term primum non nocere? First, do no harm. There are always warnings as to not go any further, especially in these A's.
jennie-jennie Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 I am not Christain myself ( I am an avowed agnostic) , but there is one tenet of the Christian religion that makes sense to me... it is to treat others as we would wish to be treated ourselves. And if a woman was in love with my SO/husband and he with her, I would fully expect her to go for it. And this is said from experience. I have been the BS, with women in love with my SOs. I never held it against them. A woman in love, reciprocated love, can never be expected to show empathy towards another woman.
Spark1111 Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 You know, all this talk of moral compasses and lack of care/empathy to others... It's a bloody minefield!! I think what matters, in this - in everything - is that you are true to YOURSELF. That's all anyone can ever ask. For some people, it could never be right to be in a relationship with someone who's married, whether the spouse has been missing for 5 years, or had a stack of babies with someone else a million miles away. Everyone is different. Only you know your situation, and as long as you don't ignore red flags, you should judge things based on what you know and your own personal boundaries. I struggled very much with the fact I had got involved with someone who was married. I still get chills when I remember some of the nightmares I had, of her, of him, all sorts of weird, creepy scenarios. I spent hours and hours out walking or driving, thinking it over, and also talking it over with MM, going round in circles, trying to convince myself to walk away, trying to convince myself there was no future and it was doomed. When he faltered first time round, about moving out, I skidaddled. I was mortified and got really indignant about the whole thing. But that wasn't me being true to myself. I HAD to give it a chance. I had to know. I had a firm belief that our relationship was the right thing - for ALL of the parties concerned. I am so happy I went back, that I followed my heart AND my head. No matter what happens from here, good or bad, I can be satisfied with my actions. Other people's opinions are just that: other people's opinions. If being true to yourself means kicking his ass out and going NC and reclaiming your life and your sanity and leaving him to his, and finding someone available, then that's what you must do. But if being true to yourself is staying with him, then that's for you to do; you know the consequences (if you've read any threads round here, you MUST know the consequences!!); if you understand the potential devastation infidelity can bring about, and you're aware and alert and you still think you're doing the right thing, all things considered, by standing by your man, then no one can ask for more. Lying to yourself is where it all goes wrong. If you make a wrong call, some posts on a forum in a few months or years time will mean nothing, but you have to live with yourself for the entire rest of your life. So be sure, and be happy SG, I get your point, I really do.... You have only one life to live and you should live it as authentically as you possibly can. I agree with that. The problem in the triangle is that you truly only know what you are told... and we all so want to trust what we are being told by the people we love. In IC after DDay, the counselor kept hammering with both of us....How do you know that to be true? And I/he lamely answered that "it was what we were told. So, just be careful here. We perceive trust and truth-telling as absolutes. If you are confidant with that, so be it. But sometimes, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
jsb58 Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 But that wasn't me being true to myself. I HAD to give it a chance. I had to know. I had a firm belief that our relationship was the right thing - for ALL of the parties concerned. I am so happy I went back, that I followed my heart AND my head. No matter what happens from here, good or bad, I can be satisfied with my actions. This is an fascinating forum and this a troublesome quote. Most people that I know believe that the appropriate thing to do is to divorce before starting a new relationship. Most people that I know do not think that cheating or enabling cheating is good for anyone. You think it is good for everyone involved. How have you determined that for the spouse? Do you think the betrayed would share your view that what you are doing is good for her or good for you? The beginning of your post referred to empathy, but your rant is nothing but selfishness. Is this typical of other women?
woinlove Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 This is an fascinating forum and this a troublesome quote. Most people that I know believe that the appropriate thing to do is to divorce before starting a new relationship. Most people that I know do not think that cheating or enabling cheating is good for anyone. You think it is good for everyone involved. How have you determined that for the spouse? Do you think the betrayed would share your view that what you are doing is good for her or good for you? The beginning of your post referred to empathy, but your rant is nothing but selfishness. Is this typical of other women? No. But it is not unusual for very long-term OW. Most can't live years of their live thinking that what they keep doing, day in and day out, month in and month out, for many years, is wrong. Over the years, they would need to come to a point where they think what they are doing is right or at least justified in some way.
jsb58 Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 No. But it is not unusual for very long-term OW. Most can't live years of their live thinking that what they keep doing, day in and day out, month in and month out, for many years, is wrong. Over the years, they would need to come to a point where they think what they are doing is right or at least justified in some way.Thank you. I did not know the thread starter was or expected to be a long-term mistress. Thank you for explaining this to me. I am somewhat relieved by your explanation.
Sidtheskid Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 This is an fascinating forum and this a troublesome quote. Most people that I know believe that the appropriate thing to do is to divorce before starting a new relationship. Most people that I know do not think that cheating or enabling cheating is good for anyone. You think it is good for everyone involved. How have you determined that for the spouse? Do you think the betrayed would share your view that what you are doing is good for her or good for you? The beginning of your post referred to empathy, but your rant is nothing but selfishness. Is this typical of other women? Why all this whinning about selfishness? Everyone is selfish. We are all individual people with our own minds. Affairs are relationships, and the parties involved are responsible for the fallout.
bentnotbroken Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 (edited) Why all this whinning about selfishness? Everyone is selfish. We are all individual people with our own minds. Affairs are relationships, and the parties involved are responsible for the fallout. The problem is the two parties involved typically don't take responsibility especially the cake eating, two faced lying WS. Edited December 6, 2010 by bentnotbroken
pureinheart Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 And if a woman was in love with my SO/husband and he with her, I would fully expect her to go for it. And this is said from experience. I have been the BS, with women in love with my SOs. I never held it against them. A woman in love, reciprocated love, can never be expected to show empathy towards another woman. I totally agree with this statement Jennie. Maybe it's my strong willed nature, independant nature, whatever, although I don't want anyone who doesn't want me. I may hurt over the death of the R, but there is no point in blaming anyone, and I always felt it counterproductive to my healing... My experience too, and I've always known there would be someone there for me...
pureinheart Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 This is an fascinating forum and this a troublesome quote. Why? This is the OM/OW forum: Support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 I totally agree with this statement Jennie. Maybe it's my strong willed nature, independant nature, whatever, although I don't want anyone who doesn't want me. I may hurt over the death of the R, but there is no point in blaming anyone, and I always felt it counterproductive to my healing... My experience too, and I've always known there would be someone there for me... Really, so you are fine with being lied to and deceived and having your personal choices taken away so others can hide behind their cowardness and indecision. A's involve betrayal, not honesty about where no and so stand. No one here argues that people should be denied happiness and not be free to LEAVE for the one they truly love.
bentnotbroken Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 Really, so you are fine with being lied to and deceived and having your personal choices taken away so others can hide behind their cowardness and indecision. A's involve betrayal, not honesty about where no and so stand. No one here argues that people should be denied happiness and not be free to LEAVE for the one they truly love. Nope. I say if you got go, get the hell on with and stop screwing with someone else's life by lying to it. For every person who wants to stay with a WS there are as many who would chose to slam the door on them letting the door knob hit them in the behind on the way out...that is if they were made aware and given the choice. When Mr. Messy was shown the door he didn't like the imprint it left on his behind, but the choice was no longer his to make.
jthorne Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 I don't have anything to say here that others haven't said already. The only thing I could add is I think that many OW get caught up in being true to what the MM wants in the hope that she will finally get what SHE wants. Along the way, who is actually being true to themselves gets... What's the word? Convoluted? Screwed up? Distorted? I haven't had my coffee this morning, so let's just go with the term f*cked no, screwed up. I am curious though, if the OP is getting the response she expected. In reading the replies, I reading what I predicted, so I'm wondering if it is what she expected?
jthorne Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 I totally agree with this statement Jennie. Maybe it's my strong willed nature, independant nature, whatever, although I don't want anyone who doesn't want me. I may hurt over the death of the R, but there is no point in blaming anyone, and I always felt it counterproductive to my healing... My experience too, and I've always known there would be someone there for me...How do you know they don't want you if they are cheating on you and keeping the OW a secret? Is the opposite then true here, that since they DON'T disclose the A, that they really DO want the BS?
jthorne Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 Why? This is the OM/OW forum: Support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner.I'm worried. What happened to your usual warm "Hi, welcome to LS"? Surely, you understand that there are many people unaware that forums like this exist. Many, maybe even jsb, happened onto this board by reading other LS boards? So... Hi, jsb58, welcome to LS!
Hazyhead Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 You know, all this talk of moral compasses and lack of care/empathy to others... It's a bloody minefield!! I think what matters, in this - in everything - is that you are true to YOURSELF. That's all anyone can ever ask. For some people, it could never be right to be in a relationship with someone who's married, whether the spouse has been missing for 5 years, or had a stack of babies with someone else a million miles away. Everyone is different. Only you know your situation, and as long as you don't ignore red flags, you should judge things based on what you know and your own personal boundaries. I struggled very much with the fact I had got involved with someone who was married. I still get chills when I remember some of the nightmares I had, of her, of him, all sorts of weird, creepy scenarios. I spent hours and hours out walking or driving, thinking it over, and also talking it over with MM, going round in circles, trying to convince myself to walk away, trying to convince myself there was no future and it was doomed. When he faltered first time round, about moving out, I skidaddled. I was mortified and got really indignant about the whole thing. But that wasn't me being true to myself. I HAD to give it a chance. I had to know. I had a firm belief that our relationship was the right thing - for ALL of the parties concerned. I am so happy I went back, that I followed my heart AND my head. No matter what happens from here, good or bad, I can be satisfied with my actions. Other people's opinions are just that: other people's opinions. If being true to yourself means kicking his ass out and going NC and reclaiming your life and your sanity and leaving him to his, and finding someone available, then that's what you must do. But if being true to yourself is staying with him, then that's for you to do; you know the consequences (if you've read any threads round here, you MUST know the consequences!!); if you understand the potential devastation infidelity can bring about, and you're aware and alert and you still think you're doing the right thing, all things considered, by standing by your man, then no one can ask for more. Lying to yourself is where it all goes wrong. If you make a wrong call, some posts on a forum in a few months or years time will mean nothing, but you have to live with yourself for the entire rest of your life. So be sure, and be happy SG, I think you always come across as true to yourself, and I like that. I think that across these forums we must accept that others' opinion's might not reflect our own, but that doesn't make them any less true. It's certainly something I'm learning, as I get to know myself more and trust my instinct, that if we can act with conviction and belief that it is the right thing to do, then we're true to ourselves. There are many on these boards whose point of view I sometimes struggle to understand, but I applaud them for having conviction.
skywriter Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 I have to agree with this Pure In Heart, and say that it was well said; It's really easy to sit back and judge other people, to be cruel to them for what is perceived to be wrong (which it sometimes is wrong)...BUT, there are those little details that can't be communicated in a post for whatever reason and I really believe that we should all be given the benefit of the doubt.
Hazyhead Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 I have to agree with this Pure In Heart, and say that it was well said; It's really easy to sit back and judge other people, to be cruel to them for what is perceived to be wrong (which it sometimes is wrong)...BUT, there are those little details that can't be communicated in a post for whatever reason and I really believe that we should all be given the benefit of the doubt. As those who reconcile learn to do for their fWS. Let it be... let it be'ee
woinlove Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 One can use an apparent conflict between being true to oneself and doing the right thing to examine oneself and the situation and see if change is needed. Because, for many people, happiness and joy are achieved when doing the right thing and being true to yourself are one and the same thing. It's a good state to get to -- one worth striving for.
someday Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 I think what matters, in this - in everything - is that you are true to YOURSELF. That's all anyone can ever ask. ... you should judge things based on what you know and your own personal boundaries. This is great advice HOWEVER we have to judge our truth based on something other than ourselves…because we are severely biased when it comes to our desires. When I found out about her, if I was true to myself, she would have ended up in the hospital and I would have ended up in jail. No, being true to my desire at that point would have been a very bad thing for everyone involved. I like that 'personal boundaries' part of your thougths, tho. Personally I would still regret my actions if I would have phyically hurt her. It's a wonder why my H would confess to me in front of her knowing how things could have played out. Yea, he's a ass for that.
desertIslandCactus Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 This is great advice HOWEVER we have to judge our truth based on something other than ourselves…because we are severely biased when it comes to our desires. When I found out about her, if I was true to myself, she would have ended up in the hospital and I would have ended up in jail. No, being true to my desire at that point would have been a very bad thing for everyone involved. I like that 'personal boundaries' part of your thougths, tho. Personally I would still regret my actions if I would have phyically hurt her. It's a wonder why my H would confess to me in front of her knowing how things could have played out. Yea, he's a ass for that. There are injustices that are extremely hurtful to others.. From one extreme to the other those would be adultery, and killing of an unborn or partial birth baby. If these were penalized with jail time, the injustices would probably be more minimized. In the meantime, all we can do is to warn others of the effects of selfishness.
Owl Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 Also, just want to comment -- It's common for MM to lie to OW and say there's no sex in the marriage. Sometimes it's true, but often it's not. MM will say this to manipulate the OW into feeling sorry for them and giving themselves away to MM. The pity card works, which is why MM pull it out so often. OW don't question it because it dovetails nicely with their own rationalizations. If there isn't sex, there's often a good reason -- maybe due to the fact that MM is abusing his wife by having affairs? (Yes, affairs. In this day and age, it's naive for any OW to believe she's the only one. Remember how offended Tiger Wood's mistresses were when they discovered they weren't that special? ) My length of time here on LS has supported the belief that MM will LIE about whether or not they're still maintaining "relations" with their wife far, far more often than they'll actually completely end "relations" with their wives. We've seen numerous posts here on LS where the OW was TOLD that the spouses were no longer physically intimate only to find out later that she was lied to about it. I think it's RARE that they actually become "physically faithful" to the OW...I'd be interested to see any real evidence to the contrary tho. On the subject of "being true to oneself"...I get what the OP is trying to say here. And it's a noble CONCEPT, but the practical application of doing so without regard to what happens to others as a result is a bit less noble, in my experience at least. As had been touched on by another thread...there's got to be some kind of balance struck between selfishness and selflessness. Too far either way is generally not a good thing.
desertIslandCactus Posted December 6, 2010 Posted December 6, 2010 My length of time here on LS has supported the belief that MM will LIE about whether or not they're still maintaining "relations" with their wife far, far more often than they'll actually completely end "relations" with their wives. We've seen numerous posts here on LS where the OW was TOLD that the spouses were no longer physically intimate only to find out later that she was lied to about it. I think it's RARE that they actually become "physically faithful" to the OW...I'd be interested to see any real evidence to the contrary tho. On the subject of "being true to oneself"...I get what the OP is trying to say here. And it's a noble CONCEPT, but the practical application of doing so without regard to what happens to others as a result is a bit less noble, in my experience at least. As had been touched on by another thread...there's got to be some kind of balance struck between selfishness and selflessness. Too far either way is generally not a good thing. Absolutely . My H's secretary later told me that H told others we weren't sleeping together. We most definitely were 'sleeping together'. And I was unsuspecting of the OW at that time. If a man's a cheater, of course he is also a liar.
phillyfan Posted December 7, 2010 Posted December 7, 2010 You know, all this talk of moral compasses and lack of care/empathy to others... It's a bloody minefield!! Yea, showin care and empathy to others can be the hardest road, which is why u chose the easier road to go after what u want, even tho ur happyness comes at the expense of other people.
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