Star Gazer Posted November 29, 2010 Posted November 29, 2010 This. I actually think advice is best given from those who have actually been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Otherwise, how is that person actually meant to relate, empathize and understand, and if the experience can help someone else, then it's a good thing to pass it on. Absolutely! I don't know about you, HS, but I've got way more t-shirts than I'd like to admit to!
Author threebyfate Posted November 29, 2010 Author Posted November 29, 2010 Oh woman! You walked right in to this! There isn't one way to do anything, including giving advice! Baby, you walked right into this too! I'm not suggesting there's one way to give advice. I'm suggesting providing advice in a way that doesn't cause the individual to shut down, so it will be different per individual! More of a flexible approach that doesn't require the opening posters to do things in the exact way and at the speed that the advice giver perceives.
harmfulsweetz Posted November 29, 2010 Posted November 29, 2010 Absolutely! I don't know about you, HS, but I've got way more t-shirts than I'd like to admit to! I'm steadily building a nice little collection of them! :lmao:
Star Gazer Posted November 29, 2010 Posted November 29, 2010 Baby, you walked right into this too! I'm not suggesting there's one way to give advice. I'm suggesting providing advice in a way that doesn't cause the individual to shut down, so it will be different per individual! More of a flexible approach that doesn't require the opening posters to do things in the exact way and at the speed that the advice giver perceives. I hear you. But I'm pretty sure the majority of us aren't trained therapists, so we do the best we know how. If a poster wants to ignore advice delivered in a manner they don't like, they're free to ignore them. Someone else will appreciate and listen to that style, even if not directly aimed at them. I've been one of those indirect advice recipients, so I know how valuable varied sources and styles can be. Further, if the world isn't going to bend to accommodate a poster, why should a forum? If there's anyone who should be flexible, shouldn't it be the recipient of the free advice from those doing things the best way they know how? I know you'll say no (), it's just something I'm throwing out there.
harmfulsweetz Posted November 29, 2010 Posted November 29, 2010 Baby, you walked right into this too! I'm not suggesting there's one way to give advice. I'm suggesting providing advice in a way that doesn't cause the individual to shut down, so it will be different per individual! More of a flexible approach that doesn't require the opening posters to do things in the exact way and at the speed that the advice giver perceives. I do see your point, TBF. Some posters on here do fall apart at certain types of advice/support given here, but some posters are straight shooting, and tell it like it is. Often, they don't mean to come across as abrasive, just calling it as they see it. I think the posters that crumble could well, after taking a few steps back from the thread for a bit, come back and actually realize the good intentions and the sound advice being given. I've received in the past some blunt advice, but I appreciated the honesty, after some thought. Of course, I had to work hard to not take it into myself and to heart, and to remind myself that I know my situation best, and I can decide if that advice best fits my needs, or not. It's a take what you need, and leave the rest situation. If you spend your time here, just listening to those that either cosign or coddles the poster, is a wasted time. In my eyes at least. Obviously, there's times when I look at threads and see maybe a tad too blunt-a-posts, but take them in the vain they were meant. I think the best advice is advice that's honest, straight, but also supportive, and refrains from too much judgment (I say too much, because sometimes it's hard not to be judgemental). I've always taken far more from those that tell it to me straight, than those that just agree with me and my actions. If I'm acting like an idiot, I'd like to be told so. No doubt I'm acting like an idiot now. That said, obviously there are more vulnerable posters on here, and sometimes, if you really want to add anything to their experience on LS, you need to word it carefully. JMHO.
Mme. Chaucer Posted November 29, 2010 Posted November 29, 2010 So knowing full well that moral compasses are highly subjective, you're still choosing to force the same subjective moral compass on someone else? No. I hope I was clear. I believe that each of us is responsible for developing and following our OWN moral compass. I don't think anyone but me has to follow mine. I am accountable to myself for this. If I behave towards another person in a way that is not aligned with my own moral standards, I believe that I need to make amends to them, regardless of whether they did something "bad" or not themselves. That's what I believe. How does one build a strong inner core when everytime they take baby steps, they're being ripped apart? I don't view manipulative behavior, game playing, whatever, as baby steps towards developing an strong inner core. To do this, one needs to work on oneself and look at the part one has played in getting into a bad situation rather than vilifying another person regardless of the role of the other person. Such a situation would be a true opportunity for growth for a person interested in changing and growing, even if terribly painful. Obviously you are referring to one of the threads by "she who shall remain nameless." I will say that if that person truly has walked away from a situation that is not good for her, I am genuinely happy for her, and I believe it could be the beginning of a change. Ask yourself if there's only one way to do things, as in all or nothing. Why can't change happen in increments? And I too aren't being argumentative for the sake of it. But I am challenging your outlook. You are not the other person and they are not you. Honestly, I do believe that some change cannot happen incrementally, for some people. A very talented drug and alcohol counselor I knew responded to patients who said they were "trying" to quit by asking them to "try" to pick up a glass of water. In some cases, there is a behavior that absolutely has to STOP before change and growth can happen. Before one can stop something, they would first have to acknowledge that they are doing it. Following the typical recovery model like I do, I also know that one can always start over. "One day at a time," and all that. That predisposes that the person in question has already taken responsibility for their own mess, though. To answer your question directly, I absolutely don't believe that there is only one way to do things, but I do believe that a person who sidesteps personal accountability and whose life is a mess is unlikely to see improvement.
Author threebyfate Posted November 29, 2010 Author Posted November 29, 2010 Anyways, I'm tossing thoughts out to everyone as they are also tossing thoughts and perceptions back. I too once thought the same about tough love but have amended to some degree where I'll give it to members who have a similar language but try to (and not always successfully for certain) retract it for members who have adverse effects to it since instead of helping them, it can tear them apart. The above same advice was given to me a long time ago by Taramere. I thought it was nonsense. But now agree to some degree, within my abilities to amend behaviour in baby steps.
Jannah Posted November 29, 2010 Posted November 29, 2010 I'm curious about something. Most often, I read about people giving others the high road advice. And yet when it comes to their own dating and relationships, they don't always take the high road but are more than happy to come down on anyone else who doesn't. Why is that? When high road advice is being advocated, it may be coming from a place where the advice giver can see that the other person need not place themself in harms way and/or place another person in harms way... When high road advice and/or choices pertain to ourselves as individuals, sometimes we do not think about the fact that our actions may very well hurt us and in some cases, hurt others. The same can be said with regard to parenting. A parent may urge their child to take a different path, a "high road" path, because a parent does not want their child to suffer hardships. The parent will want to do everything in their power, to lead their child in the right direction. On here though, we should try to avoid taking on the role of parent to one another, and just try to give our advice freely and hope good will come of it. Granted, we all have our moments of weakness, stress points and triggers, but who doesn’t...
turnstone Posted November 30, 2010 Posted November 30, 2010 Further, if the world isn't going to bend to accommodate a poster, why should a forum? If there's anyone who should be flexible, shouldn't it be the recipient of the free advice from those doing things the best way they know how? I know you'll say no (), it's just something I'm throwing out there. I think this is a very valid point and bears repeating. Whilst, due to the very nature of this forum, most of us will try to give advice in a way that is palatable, its also true that due to the very nature of the forum (i.e. its on the Internet!), advice, thoughts, opinions are not always going to be received in the way they are meant to be. But that's life. LS is probably a great source for help with any number of relationship problems, but it can't possibly cater fully for everyone, all of the time. With that in mind, I think LS probably does a pretty good job and for every time that someone is not helped by a particular person, there will be another that is.
northern_sky Posted November 30, 2010 Posted November 30, 2010 Obviously you are referring to one of the threads by "she who shall remain nameless." I will say that if that person truly has walked away from a situation that is not good for her, I am genuinely happy for her, and I believe it could be the beginning of a change. I'm glad to hear you feel that way, and I wish you had expressed that encouragement in my thread rather than implying I was going to repeat the same pattern. Honestly, I do believe that some change cannot happen incrementally, for some people. A very talented drug and alcohol counselor I knew responded to patients who said they were "trying" to quit by asking them to "try" to pick up a glass of water. In some cases, there is a behavior that absolutely has to STOP before change and growth can happen. Before one can stop something, they would first have to acknowledge that they are doing it. Following the typical recovery model like I do, I also know that one can always start over. "One day at a time," and all that. That predisposes that the person in question has already taken responsibility for their own mess, though. To answer your question directly, I absolutely don't believe that there is only one way to do things, but I do believe that a person who sidesteps personal accountability and whose life is a mess is unlikely to see improvement. I believe that all or nothing attitude works for some people and not others. For some it can be highly destructive. My mother has had bulimia for years (though it's now under control). For about 10 years she was in a 12 step program modeled after AA. Where before she had only a minor problem (the beginnings of a disorder), the program led her to self destruct. She internalized this attitude that whenever she had a minor slip, she might as well "live it up." The program basically shames members who have a small slip. They have to confess to the whole group and lose all of the abstinence they've built up. When she was in this program she started binging and purging out of control. Finally, the only way she was able to "recover" was to quit the program and make a contract with herself. She's been abstinent for I think three years now. She also told a horror story of a woman who had been abstinent for many years, one of the program's shining stars. Then she had some tiny slip. In shame she left the group and went on a multi-year binge, came back years morbidly obese. My point is that while all or nothing thinking is helpful for some, it's not for others. My mother and I are wired in similar ways, so I have a feeling what works and doesn't work for her would apply to me.
Star Gazer Posted November 30, 2010 Posted November 30, 2010 I'm glad to hear you feel that way, and I wish you had expressed that encouragement in my thread rather than implying I was going to repeat the same pattern. In the part you quoted, I don't think she said she's not concerned any longer about you repeating the same pattern. I think for ALL of us, that concern remains.
northern_sky Posted November 30, 2010 Posted November 30, 2010 In the part you quoted, I don't think she said she's not concerned any longer about you repeating the same pattern. I think for ALL of us, that concern remains. I can totally understand that concern. What irked me in the other thread was she implied I WOULD repeat the same pattern after making this step forward, as if it was a certainty. That's really not helpful...
Star Gazer Posted November 30, 2010 Posted November 30, 2010 I can totally understand that concern. What irked me in the other thread was she implied I WOULD repeat the same pattern after making this step forward, as if it was a certainty. That's really not helpful... That's how you took it, but that's not what she meant. What she said, and what most of us agree with here, is that without a true change to the root of the problem, the end result really means nothing in so far as avoiding cyclical behavior is concerned. Yes, the end result is the best one. But how did you improve as a person? What changed about YOU that this won't happen again? In situations like this, I submit the means are MORE important than the ends. That's what she's asking. Rhetorical questions, you don't need to answer.
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