Chicks before dicks

[jennie-jennie]

What I can't understand is how an OW who loves her MM, and whose MM claims to love her, is okay with sharing him with another woman. For me, at first xMM was a fling, something I entered carelessly and without thought and without any hope or expectation that he would leave his wife for me, but as soon as it became really serious and he told me he loved me, I expected him to back it up with action. When he didn't, I walked. It was hard and I should have done it sooner for sure. But I was not going to "compete" with his wife, nor was I going to share him. I deserve a man of my own to love me and only me, and I truly believe that every woman deserves the same. That's just my .02 cents but it's something I can't understand for the life of me.

 

As far as the wife being the default option, I don't agree. If the BS knows about an ongoing affair and is not okay with it but is just putting up with it, then she is sharing her man just the same as the OW, although of course the motivation/reasons are probably much different. If the wife is in the dark then only the OW is knowingly sharing the man she loves and so IMO the OW is the default option because the MM will have both for as long as the OW will allow him to. To me this is what made me start losing respect for myself. In my sitch xMM's wife knew about us but thought we were done and so I began to realize that I was knowingly sharing him whereas she was at least thinking we were done. That wasn't right to her or me - it only benefitted xMM!

 

It doesn't matter if the wife is aware of it or not, she is still the default option if the MM does not actively choose her, which he doesn't do when the extramarital relationship ends because the OW goes NC or because the OW decides to end the EMR in respect of the marriage.

[jennie-jennie]

Many posters have attempted, in vain IMO, to say that their participation in the affair was not a competition and that they didn't see it as such.

 

The entire dating scene is a competition. Affairs are no different, just the ante is upped immediately because one has to compete with a legal commitment and not just the usual my looks and my assets against that of another.

 

Saying its a competition shouldn't be viewed so negatively. All of dating is constant competition, that's why so many people get tired of it. I think many OPs think they have the MP cornered when the MP chooses to cheat on their commitment. They make the initial mistake of thinking it was going to be like shooting fish in a barrel to get the cheating MP to leave.

 

On female solidarity - no such thing. There has always been a competition between women when it comes to men.

 

The point that you are missing is that on an even playing field, like the dating arena, the wife would have lost long ago. The OW senses this, and thus there is no competition. All the wife has going for her is the MM's sense of obligation for the commitment.

[OWoman]

On female solidarity - no such thing. There has always been a competition between women when it comes to men.

 

Agree. Women's magazines would have no market if there was "female solidarity".

 

I feel solidarity with people that I identify with. That has far more to do with values and experiences than superficial things like the colour of my skin, or what genitalia lurk between my legs.

[pureinheart]

I've been on LS for a long time, too long! (LS is addictive.) JJ, have you wandered out to the other sections of LS? The watercooler area? sex section? the rant/confession? It's fun and you get to know other folks in a more fun and light hearted way.

 

And yes, I AM female! Atleast the last time I checked I was!

 

Another poster and me were saying the same exact thing!!!!!!

[Lauriebell82]

Yes, I have, but I prefer discussions about a subject matter that lies close to my heart. For now it is extramarital relationships, in the past it has been other subjects, and I am sure in the future it will be some other subject which attracts my main interest.

 

I'm actually not that interested in socializing. I prefer interesting discussions. I'm too much of an intellectual, you know.

 

Eh, I don't know Jennie. I think you might like discussing other subjects and responding to other people's posts. It would give you a better idea of where some of the other poster's (in specific, pro-marriage posters) are coming from.

 

Personally, I don't think females are EVER going to be able to join forces. There is so much backstabbing and drama between SINGLE females, let alone one's who are after the same man. And YES, no matter how you twist it, when you are in a love triangle you ARE in competition for the "top of the triangle" (aka MM) whether you like it or not.

[OWoman]

And YES, no matter how you twist it, when you are in a love triangle you ARE in competition for the "top of the triangle" (aka MM) whether you like it or not.

 

Not necessarily - the OW is in competition with "the whole M package" - BW, kids, family home, extended family network, friends of the family, etc. The BW may comprise only a small part - or even a negative part - of that.

 

In her "package", in turn, the OW comes together with the opportunity to start fresh, new friends, new challenges, possibly a new home and new extended family networks. That can either seem really tempting, or terribly daunting, depending on one's position and POV.

 

It's very seldom simply a matter of one woman vs the other.

[Lauriebell82]

Not necessarily - the OW is in competition with "the whole M package" - BW, kids, family home, extended family network, friends of the family, etc. The BW may comprise only a small part - or even a negative part - of that.

 

In her "package", in turn, the OW comes together with the opportunity to start fresh, new friends, new challenges, possibly a new home and new extended family networks. That can either seem really tempting, or terribly daunting, depending on one's position and POV.

 

It's very seldom simply a matter of one woman vs the other.

 

You make it sound like the OW makes out in the deal, and everyone else loses whereas SHE is the driving force behind the whole situation!

 

All of that which you named ("the package") are obviously things MM isn't willing to "give up" or else he wouldn't still be a MM. So ACTUALLY it is the OW who loses out in the deal, MM and W still have "their package" and what does OW have? So I guess there really ISN'T that much competition after all.

[OWoman]

You make it sound like the OW makes out in the deal, and everyone else loses whereas SHE is the driving force behind the whole situation!

 

I don't understand. IME "makes out" means snogging in the back of the bus - I'm presuming that's not what you're implying here? Could you please translate for those of us who are not American?

 

 

All of that which you named ("the package") are obviously things MM isn't willing to "give up" or else he wouldn't still be a MM. So ACTUALLY it is the OW who loses out in the deal, MM and W still have "their package" and what does OW have? So I guess there really ISN'T that much competition after all.

 

It depends at what point you take a reading. During the A, the MM hasn't yet chosen - or is still choosing "both". At the end of the A, whichever one he chooses, well, I guess that's the package that "wins", in competitive terms. Sometimes that's the status quo (BW + package) and sometimes that's the change (OW + package).

 

IME I've never "lost out" in the deal, in any A, whatever the outcome - because I always got the outcome I wanted (whether or not the MM got what he wanted).

[bentnotbroken]

Eh, I don't know Jennie. I think you might like discussing other subjects and responding to other people's posts. It would give you a better idea of where some of the other poster's (in specific, pro-marriage posters) are coming from.

 

Personally, I don't think females are EVER going to be able to join forces. There is so much backstabbing and drama between SINGLE females, let alone one's who are after the same man. And YES, no matter how you twist it, when you are in a love triangle you ARE in competition for the "top of the triangle" (aka MM) whether you like it or not.

 

 

Unfortunately I think you are absolutely right. I don't see it ever happening either.

[jennie-jennie]

Eh, I don't know Jennie. I think you might like discussing other subjects and responding to other people's posts. It would give you a better idea of where some of the other poster's (in specific, pro-marriage posters) are coming from.

 

Lauriebell, I am 51, I KNOW what I like.

 

Personally, I don't think females are EVER going to be able to join forces. There is so much backstabbing and drama between SINGLE females, let alone one's who are after the same man. And YES, no matter how you twist it, when you are in a love triangle you ARE in competition for the "top of the triangle" (aka MM) whether you like it or not.

 

I'm more interested in blowing up the triangle.

[Star_Bright]

It doesn't matter if the wife is aware of it or not, she is still the default option if the MM does not actively choose her, which he doesn't do when the extramarital relationship ends because the OW goes NC or because the OW decides to end the EMR in respect of the marriage.

 

When MM is not actively choosing OW either (by ending the marriage and being only with OW), how is the OW not the default option by your own logic?

 

 

I think both the BS and the OW are the default options for an MM. No one makes him choose, so he keeps both. Whichever one will have him the longest and not get fed up (which to me is where it matters if BS knows or not -- until then she is an unwilling participant and doesn't even know she's the so-called "default") is the "winner."

 

Basically I started to feel like I was a polygamist... I knew I was sharing exMM with his wife... and in my case he was even separated and claiming he was getting divorced, whatev!... and yet I stayed with him. I do not believe in being with someone who is also with someone else, so why was I doing it? That is what I mean based on my own line of thinking. I repeat that I cannot understand how a woman is okay sharing the man she loves with another woman. I can see if a woman chooses to date married men for the excitement or convenience or independence or whatever, but to say "I love this man and he loves me and I'm okay with the fact that he's married" makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me. That was my main point.

[Star_Bright]

I do agree that no one should have to share a man every body deserves to

have love from only them.

 

Amen. I think that's why they call it "settling"... I want a full-time committed relationship but for awhile I was in one with someone married to someone else... it started to make no sense to me and I really think all women (and men!) deserve better than to be an affair partner (unless that is what they truly want to be... most of the OW I read about on here want or would prefer or are working towards/ hoping for a real relationship, not an affair.)

[Lauriebell82]

I don't understand. IME "makes out" means snogging in the back of the bus - I'm presuming that's not what you're implying here? Could you please translate for those of us who are not American?

 

Sorry. "Making out on the deal" is like "Coming out on top" or "Is the most fortunate of all involved in the A."

 

It depends at what point you take a reading. During the A, the MM hasn't yet chosen - or is still choosing "both". At the end of the A, whichever one he chooses, well, I guess that's the package that "wins", in competitive terms. Sometimes that's the status quo (BW + package) and sometimes that's the change (OW + package).

 

IME I've never "lost out" in the deal, in any A, whatever the outcome - because I always got the outcome I wanted (whether or not the MM got what he wanted).

 

I wasn't thinking in terms of "outcome" but more from the perspective that the A is continuing to take place. But the point I was trying to make is that there is a competition between the two women (OW and BW) for the "package." I think the BW and OW both lose out when the A is active, because MM is splitting his time instead of being devoted to one person as he should be.

[whichwayisup]

Why are you claiming I do not respect your view on marriage? I do. The was because your suggestion of women joining forces would only be protecting one of the women's interest. To me joining forces means that both women have something to gain from the pact.

 

Well, to me it seemed like you didn't, or your misuse of didn't fit in to what your point was.

 

How does a BS have the OW's back when the OW is the one helping herself to the BS's husband and helping her H betray her?

 

There is a beginning to every "long lasting and growing love", and an end to many. So even with the history and the glue in the marriage the love between the two spouses might be waning and the bonds weakening, while the love between the WS and the OW is growing and their bond getting stronger.

 

Fine, then divorce first and THEN go pursue someone else. To stay and cheat, allow another love to grow with someone else when the WS is still married isn't the right thing to do. Not judgement, just a fact!

 

Also, what the OW and MM share isn't based on every part of HIS life, just bits and pieces of himself that he's able to share. That in itself isn't glue, it's in the moment, stolen moments from his wife and family. In my opinion, tha's probably why so many MM have difficulty leaving because of what the A is based on. Could be right, or I could be wrong, it's just my 2 cents on it.

 

I've read lots of posts, past and present, where the OW does not feel in competition with the BS

 

Point taken. Some do and some don't.

 

Eh, I don't know Jennie. I think you might like discussing other subjects and responding to other people's posts. It would give you a better idea of where some of the other poster's (in specific, pro-marriage posters) are coming from.

 

Personally, I don't think females are EVER going to be able to join forces. There is so much backstabbing and drama between SINGLE females, let alone one's who are after the same man. And YES, no matter how you twist it, when you are in a love triangle you ARE in competition for the "top of the triangle" (aka MM) whether you like it or not.

 

I agree 100%.

[OWoman]

I wasn't thinking in terms of "outcome" but more from the perspective that the A is continuing to take place. But the point I was trying to make is that there is a competition between the two women (OW and BW) for the "package." I think the BW and OW both lose out when the A is active, because MM is splitting his time instead of being devoted to one person as he should be.

 

Hmmm. Not sure I'd agree. During my As, at all times I had exactly what I wanted (or I wouldn't have been there). During earlier ones, I wanted something (or several ) part-time, at my convenience, on my whim, at my beck and call. I didn't want the "how was your day, dear" conversations, the demands, the emotional laundry, the irritation of someone in my space! I had all my needs met through a challenging and engaging job, my out of work commitments and interests, my friends, my kids, my home, my hobbies, my pets - I had contact excess and demand overload! I wanted lovers for hot passionate sex - the exchange of body fluids and orgasms, and nothing more!

 

I certainly didn't feel I was losing out by them telling their BWs all about their horrid day, or their BWs cooking for them, or their BWs waking up to their morning breath. I had kids telling me about their days, I was cooking for them (and friends, family, or colleagues, often), and waking up to the morning breath of my dog! If they left their Ws "for me", as some did, I sent them packing. It wasn't what I wanted.

 

And then, with my last A, we fell in love and decided to be together. Which meant a whole lot of organising on both sides (we lived in different countries). So, he set about doing what he had to do (divorcing, finding a place to live, etc) and I set about doing what I had to do (packing up a life in one country to move to another) and then we set up home together. Again, I didn't feel I'd lost out anywhere. Things took as long as they took - he was readier sooner than I was - but we both knew we were doing what it took to be together.

 

And at no point did I feel any competition. Neither with the BWs of the MMs I wanted only for their bodies, nor with my H's xW. The only "competition" was the competition my H faced, between my choosing to give up my lifestyle to be with him, or my choosing to keep the lifestyle I'd perfected over decades, and replacing him with fresh meat He wasn't the prize - I was.

[Maya25]

I hear often how Ow refer to MMW as the competition why would you want to compete with a MP when two people marry its a commitment for life and no one should have to compete they already won when they married.The competition should be with singles.Also I have read how MM and W should just get a D because their M is not working.Well marriage is work and in time who ever your with the newness wears off.The reason its not working is because a MP cheats and does not do the work which is required to keep the marriage strong.I have a hard time understanding why the OW thinks that the wife is any different then the OW if a person cheats its because they are not strong enough to work on their relationship and don't have the balls to get out when all else has failed.Both OW and W are being lied to and put in to situation that hurts.I'm wondering why would anyone want to be with someone they know cheats is that not setting yourself up to be in the W situation in the future.The MM loved their wife's so much they married them and had strong feelings enough to make this commitment.I can not see why the MW and W can not come together and put an end to the lies.Maybe if we consider each other as victims we could come together and show these men that they can not get away with cheating they might do it the right way either work it out or get out.I know their is different circumstances but we are allowing this.Allot of times the wife does not have proof so how can she do anything.if we were honest with each other and confronted each-other straight on then they would not be able to lie and play that roller coaster game with both woman as the saying goes chicks before dicks.

Maybe if we consider each other as victims we could come together and show these men that they can not get away with cheating they might do it the right way either work it out or get out.I know their is different circumstances but we are allowing this

 

OMG I couldn`t agree more with you! We need to show solidarity and teach these men a lesson. The worst part is when the mistress is satisfied with the " status quo" and choses to have some of the man , rather than losing him altogether. What can we do then to team up?

[TinaniT]

I hear often how Ow refer to MMW as the competition why would you want to compete with a MP when two people marry its a commitment for life and no one should have to compete they already won when they married..

 

 

Won?

 

Compete?

 

This is messed up. We are talking about a person and their affections. The wife does not own their husband. (And no, I do no own my fiance. He willingly gives me his affection and that is a choice he makes every single day.)... There is no competition or anything to win. That makes it sound like a possession. This is a person, and complicated emotional situations.

I don't know; Maybe I am misreading.

[greengoddess]

Hmmm. Not sure I'd agree. During my As, at all times I had exactly what I wanted (or I wouldn't have been there). During earlier ones, I wanted something (or several ) part-time, at my convenience, on my whim, at my beck and call. I didn't want the "how was your day, dear" conversations, the demands, the emotional laundry, the irritation of someone in my space! I had all my needs met through a challenging and engaging job, my out of work commitments and interests, my friends, my kids, my home, my hobbies, my pets - I had contact excess and demand overload! I wanted lovers for hot passionate sex - the exchange of body fluids and orgasms, and nothing more!

 

I certainly didn't feel I was losing out by them telling their BWs all about their horrid day, or their BWs cooking for them, or their BWs waking up to their morning breath. I had kids telling me about their days, I was cooking for them (and friends, family, or colleagues, often), and waking up to the morning breath of my dog! If they left their Ws "for me", as some did, I sent them packing. It wasn't what I wanted.

 

And then, with my last A, we fell in love and decided to be together. Which meant a whole lot of organising on both sides (we lived in different countries). So, he set about doing what he had to do (divorcing, finding a place to live, etc) and I set about doing what I had to do (packing up a life in one country to move to another) and then we set up home together. Again, I didn't feel I'd lost out anywhere. Things took as long as they took - he was readier sooner than I was - but we both knew we were doing what it took to be together.

 

And at no point did I feel any competition. Neither with the BWs of the MMs I wanted only for their bodies, nor with my H's xW. The only "competition" was the competition my H faced, between my choosing to give up my lifestyle to be with him, or my choosing to keep the lifestyle I'd perfected over decades, and replacing him with fresh meat He wasn't the prize - I was.

 

 

It's really honestly you and all your needs isn't it? I mean who cares about anyone else and their feelings and their lives as long as your needs are being met.

[hART]

The only person with a problem in this situation is the cheater. I don't understand cheaters or the OW, so I'll leave it at that. I don't know how I feel about monogamy, because it's failure must be an indication that it doesn't work the way we have set it up. That or people choose the wrong person and are too weak to escape.

[Mimolicious]

Not necessarily - the OW is in competition with "the whole M package" - BW, kids, family home, extended family network, friends of the family, etc. The BW may comprise only a small part - or even a negative part - of that.

 

In her "package", in turn, the OW comes together with the opportunity to start fresh, new friends, new challenges, possibly a new home and new extended family networks. That can either seem really tempting, or terribly daunting, depending on one's position and POV.

 

It's very seldom simply a matter of one woman vs the other.

 

Whoa! How nice. You are basically saying "Out with the old and in with the new" when it comes to this "package" that OW my bring?

Kinda dismissive of a family and M, isn't it?

So sad that people actually walk around with such behavior. Inserting and investing themselves in other peoples lives and R. If you want to be with someone and the sitch is not right, then what gives you the right as OM/OW to totally barge in and demand something that was stablished prior to you being part of it?

 

Maybe this is why females will never join forces. We are each other's worst enemies. Every chick out for self (after the same d!ck).

[whichwayisup]

Maybe if we consider each other as victims we could come together and show these men that they can not get away with cheating they might do it the right way either work it out or get out.I know their is different circumstances but we are allowing this

 

Sorry but this isn't going to work either. I doubt many BS's are going to think of the OW as a complete victim. The only OW who is a victim of a MM is one who is lied to and told he is single, and she didn't know he was married. An OW who knowingly chooses to have an affair with a MM isn't an innocent victim.

[OWoman]

Whoa! How nice. You are basically saying "Out with the old and in with the new" when it comes to this "package" that OW my bring?

Kinda dismissive of a family and M, isn't it?

 

Huh? I was describing how the MM views it -that it's not simply a choice between two women, it's a choice between two lifestyle contexts.

 

With the BW, he gets to keep his current lifestyle, friends, family etc - while with the OW, he doesn't - in its place would be all manner of new things instead. Hence, unless he really does want to make a change, the sheer weight of inertia would favour him taking the "status quo" package, which includes the BW. The BW herself may play a greater or lesser role in that choice depending on the individual situation and individual MM.

 

Not sure what you find so offensive in that summation...

 

(Nor, IMO, does it accurately describe what does in fact transpire. A MM could still lose chunks of the "status quo" lifestyle even if he chooses that package, where, say, a BS dumps him after DDay, or the extended family can't reconcile themselves to the BS taking him back, or whatever. And, similarly, a MM who chooses the other package doesn't necessarily lose that lfestyle, friends, extended family... It really does vary case by case.)

 

 

So sad that people actually walk around with such behavior. Inserting and investing themselves in other peoples lives and R. If you want to be with someone and the sitch is not right, then what gives you the right as OM/OW to totally barge in and demand something that was stablished prior to you being part of it?

 

Anyone can demand anything - I could walk into the supermarket right now and demand an elephant. I'm not going to get one, but that doesn't mean I can't try. And just because someone demands something, so what? Unless someone willingly gives them what they demand, their demands are meaningless.

[Silly_Girl]

Sorry but this isn't going to work either. I doubt many BS's are going to think of the OW as a complete victim. The only OW who is a victim of a MM is one who is lied to and told he is single, and she didn't know he was married. An OW who knowingly chooses to have an affair with a MM isn't an innocent victim.

 

Likewise there are SOME BS's who are not what I would call a complete victim either.

[greengoddess]

Likewise there are SOME BS's who are not what I would call a complete victim either.

 

Why is that? What is your thinking behind this statement?

[Silly_Girl]

Why is that? What is your thinking behind this statement?

 

I'm surprised you'd ask. Oh no, hang on - no I'm not!

 

There are abusive spouses, spouses who are serial cheaters and then wonder how someone dare cheat on them, there are spouses who neglect their partner, and their partner's cries for help extensively and watch the relationship self-destruct. Some relationships have a dynamic where infidelity is much more likely (by one/other/both/either) due to the behaviour of BOTH parties.

 

Those people are in a different category to the faithful, loyal spouse who tried their best in the marriage and were 'rewarded' with behaviour entirely the opposite.