Has Anyone Read the 'The Manipulated Man'?

[musemaj11]

I heard the book was so controversial when it was published in the 70s that it was banned in the US.

 

So has anyone read it? Is it a good book? Or is it just a book written by a crazy woman who hates herself and her own gender?

[welikeincrowds]

You should read it and find out.

 

It's compelling writing, but a little far-fetched, particularity now. It's hard to imagine that she's describing living, breathing men and women (and a lack of solid evidence/references doesn't help). She seems to get carried away in an impassioned worldview of her own devising. Men's groups eat her up, running off the fumes of her energy alone; they don't need much in the way of substance because they are angry, too.

 

I think the most important thing to take away from this work is that it was a critique on women at all. Villar held that the gender solidarity of the feminist movement was dangerous and antithetical. This is a writing coming from someone who feels they were being misrepresented by an unassailable body, who responded by attempting to tear it down. The degree to which it was acceptable that women criticize each other within the feminist movement is a significant issue that is still an open question today, as new generations of women respond to the feminist rhetoric and methodology of the 60s.

[musemaj11]

You should read it and find out.

I think the basis of her book makes sense and she has a lot of good basic points but I wonder why she has to be so exaggerative in explaining her opinions? She could have written a great meaningful book without having to sound like a troll.

 

CODED

I don't believe in Women's Liberation.

DECODED

I'm not such a fool. I'd rather let a man do the work for me.

 

CODED

I need a man to make me feel secure

DECODED

Above all, he must keep his money worries to himself.

 

CODED

I must be able to look up To a man

DECODED

To be a possible candidate as a husband, he must be more intelligent, responsible,

courageous, industrious and stronger than I am. Otherwise, what purpose would he

serve?

 

CODED

I love him.

DECODED

He is an excellent workhorse.

 

CODED

Of course I would give up my career if my husband asked me.

DECODED

Once he is earning enough money, I am never going to work again.

So funny but so true when you think about it.

 

Reading her book make makes you realize that being a gentleman is actually being a slave.

[kdark]

I just read the first passage, and I must say that is a very accurate description of how it would go if a woman had a flat tire on the side of the road. The man sacrificing in order to ensure that no harm or work came to the woman.

 

Personally, I don't see her ideas and theories as being at odds with feminism. She is just illustrating that women aren't as guilt free as some think they are in the current state of gender roles, and that many women actually enjoy and take advantage of the current state of affairs. One of my ex gf's was this way. She got drunk one night and kept insisting that I had to buy her a new microwave since her old one broke, insinuating that it was my job as a man to "take care of her." Even though she made just as much money as me, and was perfectly capable of buying one herself.

 

After dealing with her madness, I refuse to date anyone old fashioned. I've learned that the vast majority of women who describe themselves as "old fashioned" just mean they want men to shower them with money, attention, and gifts, and that they have no ambitions in life other than to raise a family and live a stress free life. And they have every right to that style of life, but stay the heck away from me.

 

And besides, anyone who is still getting getting death threats 35 years after their book is published had to have written something that hit a nerve with society. I always say, the books that get banned are always the ones most worth reading.

[Els]

Ummm. Is that edition pirated or something? I would be wary posting it here if it was...

 

Anyhow, don't have time to read everything, but I agree with some parts of it, not all. The main issue I want to point out here is that humans are just prone to taking advantage of others if the opportunity is handed to them easily. Look at all the men in Saudi Arabia cheerfully accepting the fact that the women there are no more than sex slaves and beasts of burden to them, for one thing. I'm sure they aren't all 'bad people'... it's just that since such treatment of women is accepted in their culture and it benefits them, why the hell not? Ditto with some women in the 'chivalrous' Western culture.

 

I just read the first passage, and I must say that is a very accurate description of how it would go if a woman had a flat tire on the side of the road. The man sacrificing in order to ensure that no harm or work came to the woman.

 

In this case, I would say that it is both genders' faults. Firstly, it is far more difficult for a smartly-dressed woman (as the book stated) in a tight office skirt, fitted shirt and heels to change a tyre compared to a man. Now, how did women's fashion evolve? Through what pleases the eyes of men, of course - one may say that women dress to impress one another, which may be true in a way, but how standards of 'beauty' evolved is really always dependent on the opposite sex. I am sure that it isn't women who are the reason for the majority of fashion trends throughout the ages striving to emphasize breasts, minimize the waist and make the butt perky. Even now, the 'fitted' trend of women's clothes are really due to the fact that men enjoy looking at the shape of a woman's body - and because men do, women themselves propagate the trend by wanting to look attractive and thus sacrificing comfort for that. Notice how much more mobile and unrestrictive formal dress is for men as opposed to women. Even their shirts allow for easier movement of the shoulders. Shoes can actually be walked properly in. Trousers allow you to do a helluva lot more things more easily than skirts.

 

Also, the book didn't mention that if the girl had been dressed in loafers and baggy clothes (which would have been MUCH more conducive to changing the tyre...), the likelihood of her having a guy stop would be less. OR that if the woman had changed the tyre and gotten her shoes dirty herself, she would be frowned upon more than a man in dirty shoes.

 

Secondly, it is of course the woman's fault for not even bothering to try, and especially for not bothering to help the man clean up after. But my point is; it isn't solely her 'fault'.

 

After dealing with her madness, I refuse to date anyone old fashioned. I've learned that the vast majority of women who describe themselves as "old fashioned" just mean they want men to shower them with money, attention, and gifts, and that they have no ambitions in life other than to raise a family and live a stress free life. And they have every right to that style of life, but stay the heck away from me.

To be fair, I really don't think 'raising a family' is a stress-free life at all, unless you hire lots of help (nanny, cleaner, etc). I've observed SAHMs with 2 or 3 young kids at home, and I think I'd rather do a full-time job than that. Edited November 27, 2010 by Elswyth

[musemaj11]

I just read the first passage, and I must say that is a very accurate description of how it would go if a woman had a flat tire on the side of the road. The man sacrificing in order to ensure that no harm or work came to the woman.

 

Personally, I don't see her ideas and theories as being at odds with feminism. She is just illustrating that women aren't as guilt free as some think they are in the current state of gender roles, and that many women actually enjoy and take advantage of the current state of affairs. One of my ex gf's was this way. She got drunk one night and kept insisting that I had to buy her a new microwave since her old one broke, insinuating that it was my job as a man to "take care of her." Even though she made just as much money as me, and was perfectly capable of buying one herself.

 

After dealing with her madness, I refuse to date anyone old fashioned. I've learned that the vast majority of women who describe themselves as "old fashioned" just mean they want men to shower them with money, attention, and gifts, and that they have no ambitions in life other than to raise a family and live a stress free life. And they have every right to that style of life, but stay the heck away from me.

 

And besides, anyone who is still getting getting death threats 35 years after their book is published had to have written something that hit a nerve with society. I always say, the books that get banned are always the ones most worth reading.

Yea I guess we males are just good dogs. We will do literally ANYTHING just to hear someone telling us, "You are a gentleman." or "You are a real man."

 

They are like magical words.

 

Im really sad now.

 

Look at all the men in Saudi Arabia cheerfully accepting the fact that the women there are no more than sex slaves and beasts of burden to them, for one thing.

Thats just not true.

 

In fact its the opposite. They are so extremely overprotective of women that they end up mistreating them.

Edited November 27, 2010 by musemaj11

[Els]

Uh... yeah, they're so overprotective of women that they cheerfully accept the fact that they can **** around all they like outside marriages while women will receive the death penalty for the same action, that they cheerfully marry off their 13-year-old daughter for a good dowry, that they think it's perfectly alright for them to have 4 wives while the woman must be completely faithful to them, AND that they happily agree that a woman must bring in 4 witnesses to a court to counteract their one witness, AND that they can divorce a woman just by saying 'I divorce you' thrice whereas for a woman it's virtually impossible to divorce a man.

 

While overprotectiveness may play some part, I'm pretty sure that isn't the whole story.

[musemaj11]

Uh... yeah, they're so overprotective of women that they cheerfully accept the fact that they can **** around all they like outside marriages while women will receive the death penalty for the same action, that they cheerfully marry off their 13-year-old daughter for a good dowry, that they think it's perfectly alright for them to have 4 wives while the woman must be completely faithful to them, AND that they happily agree that a woman must bring in 4 witnesses to a court to counteract their one witness, AND that they can divorce a woman just by saying 'I divorce you' thrice whereas for a woman it's virtually impossible to divorce a man.

Now you are just making stuff up.

 

Both Saudi men and women get their heads chopped off or stoned to death for committing adultery.

 

In fact, getting a wife is so costly and hard that a lot of Saudi men are closet homosexuals.

Edited November 27, 2010 by musemaj11

[kdark]

In this case, I would say that it is both genders' faults.

 

Oh I agree completely. The man is at fault for first making the assumption that the female would be incapable of changing the tire herself, and also going through with the act even though he had a business meeting to go to, and now he has grease on his hands and mud on his shoes, but since he's a man, he is expected to get a little dirty.

 

The female is at fault because she assumed that a man would come around and take care of her problem, to the extreme that she wasn't carrying a jack in her car, and wouldn't even have known what to do with it if she had one. And it isn't because she is stupid or couldn't do it, it's because we as society, deem that as an acceptable behavior for a woman.

 

Both men and women are equally responsible for the current state of gender roles.

 

To be fair, I really don't think 'raising a family' is a stress-free life at all, unless you hire lots of help (nanny, cleaner, etc). I've observed SAHMs with 2 or 3 young kids at home, and I think I'd rather do a full-time job than that.

 

A few of my cousins are single mothers, and they have it MUCH worse off than SAHMs. By no means is being a SAHM stress free, but it is a job that entails much comfort and security, but very irregular hours. As a man, I would LOVE to have the option to be a SAHD. But this is an option that is sadly non existent in America, or at least frowned upon by society, while perfectly acceptable and somewhat looked upon favorably for women.

 

I just abhor double standards in all their forms, and the blade most definitely cuts both ways, to the detriment of both men and women, and at the fault of both men and women.

[Els]

Now you are just making stuff up.

 

Both Saudi men and women get their heads chopped off or stoned to death for committing adultery.

 

In fact, getting a wife is so costly and hard that a lot of Saudi men are closet homosexuals.

 

I'm not talking about adultery, I'm talking about premarital sex. What is your source? Mine is the books by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Sasson .

 

Also, assuming that you are right on that one point, do you deny my other points? The issue ISN'T how expensive getting a wife is; it is the fact that he can have 4 wives if he has the financial capability. No woman, rich or poor, will ever be ****ing more than one man.

[kdark]

Yea I guess we males are just good dogs. We will do literally ANYTHING just to hear someone telling us, "You are a gentleman." or "You are a real man."

 

They are like magical words.

 

The thing is, men are just as responsible because they eat that bullsh*t up, and allow themselves to be manipulated. We are letting women define what a "real man" is.

 

Just like women let men define what a "good woman" is. Look on any billboard or magazine cover to see what society expects out of women.

 

And both genders are constantly trying to exert their own special kind of power over each other. Men use generally use physical strength and money, women usually use manipulation and sex.

 

It's sickening.

[Els]

Oh I agree completely. The man is at fault for first making the assumption that the female would be incapable of changing the tire herself, and also going through with the act even though he had a business meeting to go to, and now he has grease on his hands and mud on his shoes, but since he's a man, he is expected to get a little dirty.

 

The female is at fault because she assumed that a man would come around and take care of her problem, to the extreme that she wasn't carrying a jack in her car, and wouldn't even have known what to do with it if she had one. And it isn't because she is stupid or couldn't do it, it's because we as society, deem that as an acceptable behavior for a woman.

 

Both men and women are equally responsible for the current state of gender roles.

 

Agreed.

 

 

A few of my cousins are single mothers, and they have it MUCH worse off than SAHMs. By no means is being a SAHM stress free, but it is a job that entails much comfort and security, but very irregular hours. As a man, I would LOVE to have the option to be a SAHD. But this is an option that is sadly non existent in America, or at least frowned upon by society, while perfectly acceptable and somewhat looked upon favorably for women.

 

I just abhor double standards in all their forms, and the blade most definitely cuts both ways, to the detriment of both men and women, and at the fault of both men and women.

 

Agreed, also. I was merely jumping on the 'stress free' part. As you advocated me dressing however I like without regard for societal standards, though, I will now say the same to you - if you feel you would make a good SAHD, why not?

[kdark]

Agreed.

 

 

 

 

Agreed, also. I was merely jumping on the 'stress free' part. As you advocated me dressing however I like without regard for societal standards, though, I will now say the same to you - if you feel you would make a good SAHD, why not?

 

I don't think I would make that good of one. Kids avoid me like the plague.

 

I actually did have the option with my ex gf. She said she wouldn't have any problem with me staying home to raise our future children if I wanted to, while she went off and earned the money. One of the benefits of dating a true feminist...

[Els]

If it really came down to scratch (as in, I had to do one or the other), I would definitely choose to work rather than raise the kids though.

 

As it is, I choose the option of not having kids and thus I plan to work only to support myself when I grad.

[musemaj11]

The thing is, men are just as responsible because they eat that bullsh*t up, and allow themselves to be manipulated. We are letting women define what a "real man" is.

 

Just like women let men define what a "good woman" is. Look on any billboard or magazine cover to see what society expects out of women.

 

And both genders are constantly trying to exert their own special kind of power over each other. Men use generally use physical strength and money, women usually use manipulation and sex.

 

It's sickening.

Yea from now on, when someone telling me, "you are not a gentleman!" Im just gonna say, "ha ha ha ... thank you for saying Im not a dog."

 

I'm not talking about adultery, I'm talking about premarital sex. What is your source? Mine is the books by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Sasson .

 

Also, assuming that you are right on that one point, do you deny my other points? The issue ISN'T how expensive getting a wife is; it is the fact that he can have 4 wives if he has the financial capability. No woman, rich or poor, will ever be ****ing more than one man.

I didnt deny that the Saudis do degrade women. However, a lot of their 'restrictive' rules on women are meant in their eyes to show how protective they are of their honorable, pure, fragile, weak, dependent and obedient women.

 

In Saudi Arabia a woman cannot drive and go anywhere alone and the husband needs to be rich enough to afford a personal chauffeur to drive her around.

 

Yes women are commodities in countries like Saudi Arabia. But if they really dont like it maybe they should fight it.

Edited November 27, 2010 by musemaj11

[Els]

Y

I didnt deny that the Saudis do degrade women. However, a lot of their 'restrictive' rules on women are meant in their eyes to show how protective they are of their honorable, pure, fragile, weak, dependent and obedient women.

 

In Saudi Arabia a woman cannot drive and go anywhere alone and the husband needs to be rich enough to afford a personal chauffeur to drive her around.

 

Yes women are commodities in countries like Saudi Arabia. But if they really dont like it maybe they should fight it.

 

Soooo... if you really don't like the way men are viewed/treated in society now, maybe you should actively fight it instead of just posting in a relationship forum? I'm sure you have more resources and less danger in doing so, compared to the Saudi women.

[musemaj11]

Soooo... if you really don't like the way men are viewed/treated in society now, maybe you should actively fight it instead of just posting in a relationship forum? I'm sure you have more resources and less danger in doing so, compared to the Saudi women.

Well, I didnt realize I was oppressed before. Now I am going to fight the puppet masters!

 

I actually did have the option with my ex gf. She said she wouldn't have any problem with me staying home to raise our future children if I wanted to, while she went off and earned the money. One of the benefits of dating a true feminist...

Where does one find a woman like that?

Edited November 27, 2010 by musemaj11

[Els]

Or... you could just start small by enforcing complete equality in all of your relationships (and when I say complete I mean complete, meaning you don't expect her to do a single thing that you yourself wouldn't do and vice versa, except perhaps give birth ).

[musemaj11]

Or... you could just start small by enforcing complete equality in all of your relationships (and when I say complete I mean complete, meaning you don't expect her to do a single thing that you yourself wouldn't do and vice versa, except perhaps give birth ).

Honestly, I dont know. As a guy, society has brainwashed me in such a way that I cant help but pitying a girl for doing anything for me.

 

I guess the strings that are attached to me are never going to come off. Im gonna live as a puppet forever.

[Els]

It is quite shameful, as an adult, to blame society for 'brainwashing' you and determining your fate. You have control of your own actions and choices. If you are going to act as a 'gentleman', then do so cheerfully and without blaming society. If you dislike it, make the change yourself. Noone's twisting your arm here.

[kdark]

Honestly, I dont know. As a guy, society has brainwashed me in such a way that I cant help but pitying a girl for doing anything for me.

 

I guess the strings that are attached to me are never going to come off. Im gonna live as a puppet forever.

 

Honestly, I thought the same as you once, but after I stopped worrying about what society thinks, things have actually gotten a lot easier. And most importantly, I find women who have the same outlook on life as me, so I don't have to constantly keep up appearances and hide my true self.

[musemaj11]

Honestly, I thought the same as you once, but after I stopped worrying about what society thinks, things have actually gotten a lot easier. And most importantly, I find women who have the same outlook on life as me, so I don't have to constantly keep up appearances and hide my true self.

But where do you find those women? Is it easier to find them when you are within older age group? I mean Im still in college and all the girls I meet are Cinderellas who are waiting for their princes to take them to live in the castles.

[Els]

There are plenty if you know how to look and don't discount some of them for certain reasons. Let me tell you this: The women less likely to be princess-y are also those less likely to be dressed like one. Not always, but usually. Again, you make your own choices.

[Els]

Honestly, I thought the same as you once, but after I stopped worrying about what society thinks, things have actually gotten a lot easier. And most importantly, I find women who have the same outlook on life as me, so I don't have to constantly keep up appearances and hide my true self.

 

Also, I think this is a great post and that the OP should take it to heart instead of blaming all of womenkind instead of himself.

[kdark]

I'm in college too. I meet them in my classes. But my major is a very female dominated profession, so I get lots of opportunities. Just set standards for yourself for what you want in a woman, and go from there. Dating websites are a good start since you get to see what people are about before you meet them. But once I started getting involved in clubs at college that have similar goals as me such as Equality Now and The Human Services club, I meet loads of single woman with similar interests and outlooks on life.

 

Gay bars are also AMAZING places to meet progressive women. You get points just for walking in the door...