Accepting personal responsibility

[jennie-jennie]

How does it matter how troubled those are in the lives that we finalize or destroy.

 

At the end of the day, we are the ones of responsibility. Isn't that what this thread's about.

 

Why is the responsibility on OWoman to respect her H's destructive marriage greater than the responsibility to help her H and in turn help him to help his children? Why does one 'win'? Because of a legal document, a marriage certificate? Being married is not a licence to abuse one's spouse, just speak to your local DV unit for clarification... OWoman took her responsibility to her H more seriously than her responsibility to his W. I don't think it's hard to grasp, unless you take the 'everything being relayed here must be lies' route, in which case there's no point in participating

 

I believe I have to agree with desert here. To me it doesn't matter whether the marriage is abusive or not. I have a relationship with my MM. I choose to be with him, he chooses to be with me. I personally do not need to justify this by my MM's marriage being abusive. (It's not. His wife is a good woman.)

 

I accept responsibility for participating in our relationship. I will endure any consequences of it. But I will not let my MM go for his BS's sake. She doesn't have more right to a fulfilling relationship than I do.

 

My opinion is not that OWoman should have respected her husband's marriage. It is that she doesn't need the excuse of it being abusive not to.

[OWoman]

How does it matter how troubled those are in the lives that we finalize or destroy.

 

At the end of the day, we are the ones of responsibility. Isn't that what this thread's about.

 

uh - I think you missed the point of that. I was responding to the point that every BS has extended family through whom her pain ripples onward. My point was - no, not always, some don't. It was a simple enough point, but a very different one from what your response made of it.

[OWoman]

HE made the choice to get involved with her and marry her. Are you really trying to say he's the victim here? Are you getting all this from him?

 

Yes, he did make the choice - though these days a situation like that would be criminal and she'd have been jailed for CSA. However, back then, an older person hitting on a kid was seen as somehow flattering to the kid. I don't know how old you are or how things were where you grew up, but as kids we all had teachers - even in primary school - who would flirt with the kids, lots of sexual innuendo, the odd bit of tongue-kissing if the homework was really good.... Stuff that curls toes now but back then, was "exciting". Sure, he made a choice - we all made a choice to flirt back, back then, or to giggle at the innuendo, or whatever. But by today's standards, it wouldn't meet the criteria for "informed consent".

 

And no, I didn't get it from him. I got it from those same concerned parents and siblings and old friends who saw what was happening and tried to intervene, and got alienated for their pains. He says very little about this - it's rather galling to have to admit that your parents (and others) were right all along...

 

So what happens if YOU ever go through some issues like his exW did? Maybe it won't be to the extent, but what if you suffer from depression.

 

I am not abusive. I do not have NPD. I do not refuse to get help when I need it. I do not project my problems onto everyone else. I review and reflect on my behaviour, and I value my R and take regular "health checks" on it with my H, and through other friends and extended family, to ensure that things don't go off the rails. I do not drink to excess - I can't, physically - and I nurture my friendships rather than alienating people and wanting to live under a rock in my own little world with no one else but me and those I've programmed to do my bidding. So no, I'm unlikely to develop her issues.

 

Depression? Sure, BTDT. As has he. We're both aware of our vulnerabilities, and mindful of our triggers. We're also both (me to a greater, and he to a lesser, extent) susceptible to SADS - and we take steps actively to combat it. We recognise the risks, and we take the actions we need to prevent - or, if it becomes necessary, treat the conditions.

 

I mean your H doesn't really take marriage vows seriously,

 

WTF???? Are you serious??? For more than three decades he invested every fibre of his body trying to make his M work. She abused him, she undermined him every step of the way and she refused to work with him to try to mend the breaking M.

 

When she stormed out after attacking him physically in front of the kids, traumatising them, because he would not lie to protect her in front of a disciplinary tribunal in the workplace where she was found guilty of bullying her colleagues, he was the one who picked up the pieces with the kids, got them into counselling and went with them - she refused. When she fell apart spectacularly apart from him, he was still prepared to take her back - despite his own life having been great in her absence - and give the M another go, if she'd agree to MC. When she broke that promise, he didn't kick her out. He still tried. And then finally, when her behaviour became even worse than before, he snapped and agreed to an A.

 

He could have snapped and fought back, ending it all in blood on the kitchen floor - and he'd have gotten a sympathetic hearing in the courts. More than enough witnesses would have stepped forward - including the kids.

 

He could have snapped and blown his head off with a shotgun, and everyone would have twisted their hands and sobbed that they saw it coming... and understood.

 

He could have snapped burned the house down, frying them all in their beds, and people would have nodded sympathetically about a man driven beyond his limits.

 

But because he took action that actually landed up bringing himself back from the edge, and his kids, he "didn't take his M vows seriously"???? :lmao: :lmao: I'm really glad people here have more sense of perspective than that!!

 

I really hope you never have to counsell an abused spouse! Or a rape survivor - would you yell at her for wearing a short skirt? Tell her she should have known better than to walk into a bar? :sick: :sick:

 

what is to stop him from betraying you as he did his exW?

 

If he treats me as he did his xW, I'd have more than 30 years of devoted fidelity to look forward to - by which stage we'd both be well into our dotage anyway! But what's to stop him treating me as he did his xW? I'm not his xW. I don't abuse him - so that, for a start. the same situation is very unlikely to arise. Plus - he invested huge effort into addressing the issues which led to him having put up with her nonsense for so long in IC - and he had a very good IC, not someone who "blamed the victim" and told him to go back and take more of the abuse, because he'd once said vows to her. His IC helped him confront the negative messages she'd planted, to develop a realistic perspective on the dynamic, to recognise what was happening and to catch his own behaviour before he slipped into those same patterns. He learned a new skill set and gained a new perspective and sees the world very differently now. He'd need to lobotomise himself with a hot poker to go back to what he was then. So no, I don't imagine there's much chance of a replay.

 

We don't have their R. We have our own. Any mistakes we make will be ours, and ours alone - they won't be theirs. Some people are capable of learning from their pasts, and do.

[Lauriebell82]

Okay OWomen, obviously I am striking a nerve here. I think it comes down to the fact that I don't agree with A's as a way of resolving issues and you obviously do.

 

I empathathize with your husband for what he has been through, but he is not innocent in all this. He chose to have an A instead of a D. And I get the fact that his exW made him feel bad about himself, but he could have got counseling and work through his issues there instead of having an A. I never "blame a victim" as you had said, but your H hurt his exW as well by cheating on her. Having an A is MUCH different then being abused or raped. It's a planned betrayal no matter WHAT precipitated it. There is no "good excuse" for having an A.

 

Everytime I try to challenge what you are saying you come back with a justification so I am just going to give up here. Let's agree to disagree on this issue.

[OWoman]

Okay OWomen, obviously I am striking a nerve here. I think it comes down to the fact that I don't agree with A's as a way of resolving issues and you obviously do.

 

I empathathize with your husband for what he has been through, but he is not innocent in all this. He chose to have an A instead of a D. And I get the fact that his exW made him feel bad about himself, but he could have got counseling and work through his issues there instead of having an A. I never "blame a victim" as you had said, but your H hurt his exW as well by cheating on her. Having an A is MUCH different then being abused or raped. It's a planned betrayal no matter WHAT precipitated it. There is no "good excuse" for having an A.

 

Everytime I try to challenge what you are saying you come back with a justification so I am just going to give up here. Let's agree to disagree on this issue.

 

I get that he's not completely innocent in all this. I agree - and he's never tried to duck his responsibility on that. Whatever my morals may say about the acceptability or otherwise of his engaging in an A, his own morals tell him it's wrong and he's not cool with it. He's worked through why he did it in counselling, and he's clear now that, faced with a similar choice in the future, he'd make different decisions. But that doesn't change the past, and that doesn't undo the fact that at the time the resources he had available to him led to him making the choices he did.

 

But, that wasn't the question you asked. You said, "given that he didn't take his last M seriously" (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of it) - which wasn't accurate, so I felt compelled to correct that in the interests of my inner pedant - "what was to stop him doing the same thing again?" which I answered - many things. The "same situation" won't arise. He's been through IC and gained new skills and insights. I'm different to his xW. Our R is different. Etc.

 

It seems my "answering questions" is your "providing justifications", so perhaps you need to phrase your questions better so that they elicit the kind of answers you'd consider not to be justifications, rather than the straight answers to straight questions that they elicit from me. It's not rocket science.

[someday]

OWoman,

 

Thanks for the hugs, yes hard lessons learned but definatly valuable lessons.

 

TBH, I couldn't respect a man who was so spinless. The BW treated him the way he allowed himself to be treated. You saved him from himself. I surly hope you've given him a backbone.

[Snowflower]

 

 

I've not been betrayed - and, reflecting on the response I just posted, it's perhaps because I don't expect the kind of loyalty from "the world" that some others seem to give and expect in return. But your comment about "the one person you should be able to trust" I suppose does get to the heart of it - if you do let someone in, and you do set up that loyalty exchange, you do make yourself vulnerable to betrayal in a way you wouldn't otherwise be.

 

And yes, I can imagine that would suck wet dogs.

 

You know, I get this...even as a BS.

 

I sometimes think many people put too much faith and trust in other people...when we really should be trusting ourselves first. When you (general) put all your faith in someone else, well you're just setting yourself up.

 

And, anytime you let someone in...you know that you are setting yourself up for possible hurt and disappointment. It's staying true to your (again, general sense of the word) own convictions and finding your own inner strength that really gives you the power.

 

It did suck wet dogs (LOL-love that term ) when my husband betrayed me. It hurt beyond belief. But, I learned a lot from it-about him, about relationships and most importantly, about myself and others. I feel more wise and that is very valuable lesson.

[OWoman]

OWoman,

 

Thanks for the hugs, yes hard lessons learned but definatly valuable lessons.

 

TBH, I couldn't respect a man who was so spinless. The BW treated him the way he allowed himself to be treated. You saved him from himself. I surly hope you've given him a backbone.

 

Not quite - I provided the opportunity. He took it and did the requisite work. I would not be with a guy I could not respect. I would certainly never marry a guy I couldn't respect.

 

He reclaimed his backbone, raided the jar in the larder where his xW kept his balls, and faced his demons in IC. The man I'm with is not the man she married, though he does bear a marked resemblance to the son, brother and friend that went MIA all those decades ago - only, older, wiser, more mature and his own man, now.

 

This R has changed both of us in fundamental ways - and all our friends say it's for the better!

[desertIslandCactus]

Why is the responsibility on OWoman to respect her H's destructive marriage greater than the responsibility to help her H and in turn help him to help his children? Why does one 'win'? Because of a legal document, a marriage certificate? Being married is not a licence to abuse one's spouse, just speak to your local DV unit for clarification... OWoman took her responsibility to her H more seriously than her responsibility to his W. I don't think it's hard to grasp, unless you take the 'everything being relayed here must be lies' route, in which case there's no point in participating

 

The marriage is closed. An OW can think of many reasons why the W isn't sufficient - and they do.

[desertIslandCactus]

uh - I think you missed the point of that. I was responding to the point that every BS has extended family through whom her pain ripples onward. My point was - no, not always, some don't. It was a simple enough point, but a very different one from what your response made of it.

 

The BS and her so-called 'problems' are not the concern of a potential OW, and should not be made worse by the OW either.

[greengoddess]

The BS and her so-called 'problems' are not the concern of a potential OW, and should not be made worse by the OW either.

 

Yes the ow should not have so much information about the bs life. Then again for the other side the bs probably after a dday should not get so many sickening details about the affair and the very personal things about the ow but that's what happens. Such a messy dynamic.

[OWoman]

Yes the ow should not have so much information about the bs life.

 

I guess if the BW wants the loyalty of friends, extended family and colleagues, she'd need to earn it. If she alienates them and treats them like excrement, then of course they will be less inclined to protect her "secrets".

[OWoman]

The BS and her so-called 'problems' are not the concern of a potential OW, and should not be made worse by the OW either.

 

Oh? So now the BS is no concern of the OW? Isn't that the exact opposite of what OWs are usually told - "What about the BW! Think of the BW!"

 

So, which is it? You can't have it both ways just because it suits you to change horses midway....

[OWoman]

The marriage is closed. An OW can think of many reasons why the W isn't sufficient - and they do.

 

Actually, few OWs think of the BW at all. Most of the time, the BW is irrelevant to the OW.

[greengoddess]

Actually, few OWs think of the BW at all. Most of the time, the BW is irrelevant to the OW.

 

 

I sincerely doubt that. I actually think most ow have a little more compassion than that and do feel some guilt for their part. This comment is doing most ow a disservice.

[OWoman]

I sincerely doubt that. I actually think most ow have a little more compassion than that and do feel some guilt for their part. This comment is doing most ow a disservice.

 

DIC says they shouldn't.

 

The BS and her so-called 'problems' are not the concern of a potential OW

[greengoddess]

DIC says they shouldn't.

 

If twisting DIC words makes you feel good then so be it.

Kind of like he never lied he just delayed telling her he was leaving and why.

[Snowflower]

Actually, few OWs think of the BW at all. Most of the time, the BW is irrelevant to the OW.

 

Okay, I love ya' OW but I gotta call BS (not betrayed spouse) on this one!

 

I have read tons of posts here from OW who go on and on about the MM's marriage, what the BW is doing or not doing, etc. It leads one to think that the BW is very much on the minds of the OW and the MM during the affair.

 

And then after d-day, many MM and OW end up waiting to see what the BW ends up doing about the marriage. It's usually along the lines of, "well, he is waiting for her to file."

 

Really? The BS suddenly has all the power now?

 

After d-day in my situation, the first worry the OW had is, "does she know who I am?" So apparently, I was very much on the mind of the OW. Kind of disgusting, but there it is.

[Silly_Girl]

Yes the ow should not have so much information about the bs life. Then again for the other side the bs probably after a dday should not get so many sickening details about the affair and the very personal things about the ow but that's what happens. Such a messy dynamic.

 

But gg, didn't you encourage Pokemon (today) to tell the BS in her life the details of the affair?

[greengoddess]

But gg, didn't you encourage Pokemon (today) to tell the BS in her life the details of the affair?

 

 

Yes and I stand by it. I certainly don't mean all the sexual details and body descriptions that some cheaters tell their spouses to try to worm back in. I want her to tell her they were planning a future together at the same time he was wooing her.

[desertIslandCactus]

I guess if the BW wants the loyalty of friends, extended family and colleagues, she'd need to earn it. If she alienates them and treats them like excrement, then of course they will be less inclined to protect her "secrets".

 

The OW wants the MM. All problems within the M are magnified because of her need. The marriage was always closed, and not for the OW to use any 'problems' as an in. The OW (an outsider) then appoints herself as the judge of a M that is actually none of her business..

[BB07]

Yes and I stand by it. I certainly don't mean all the sexual details and body descriptions that some cheaters tell their spouses to try to worm back in. I want her to tell her they were planning a future together at the same time he was wooing her.

 

From what I've read here and other places it seems that most bs's do want all the details, sexual and descriptions. Are you saying that isn't what the majority want?

[desertIslandCactus]

The BS and her so-called 'problems' are not the concern of a potential OW, and should not be made worse by the OW either.

 

OW, In this post - I meant the BS and her so-called 'problems' - are none of the OW's business.

[worlybear]

Sometimes, some people, simply do not care how their actions will impact others. You seem to be that type of person. If that's the case than, IMO, you'll never truly understand.

 

Let’s go with the talking in class scenario, what if there was a student in that class that was struggling with comprehension of the text and they wanted to use that time to reread the material...and there you are talking, talking, talking....if that student spoke up as said to you "Please be quiet I am reading." would that make a difference to you? Would you even notice that student reading? Would you even care that you've disrupted their study time? So next time the teacher leaves the room, you do notice this particular student is reading- would you still talk, talk, talk while the teacher is out of the room? And why is it that you are talking when the teachers out of the room? Why not talk, talk, talk when the teacher is present?

I totally agree with this. In my case the OW was someone who worked alongside me, her daughter played with mine, she came to my house for coffee. She knew exactly what she was doing when she s*****d my husband but she didn't care -her betrayal was hard to take ,and to this day my daughter won't have anything to do with her or her ex-father-and who could blame her?

IMO her actions were cowardly,sneaky and selfish-and so were his!

[Lauriebell82]

my opinion on this whole thing is to treat others with the same respect with which you would like to be treated, and to not knowing cause suffering in others.

 

I have seen what affairs can do to people and to families... how could I be a part of what was caused that suffering. Maybe it can be rationalized by concepts like moral relativism, but when it comes right down to the "nitty gritty", we are all members of society and as such we owe it to other members of society to treat them with respect and kindness, whether we know them or not.

 

My desire for self gratification does not give me the right to harm someone else.

 

Yeah, I agree with you there. I think we may be in the minority though, as those who have been involved in an A, view life a little more negatively.

 

I could never knowingly cause someone else the pain that an A can cause, but to some it's no skin off their back. They can deal with it and not let it bother them. I think the anti-affair crowd vs. pro-affair crowd is never going to agree because we veiw relationships and have different morals.